Wyches... Looks great

Howdy!!
I stumbled upon a link to the raging heroes blood vestals in another thread somewhere in here and I love just the minis!
The thing is that I don't know how to use them in 6th edition due to over watch and new disembarkment rules.
My local meta is quite small but also quite all rounded. Most of my games though is usually against either Orks or Chaos Marines, with either IG or Daemon allies.

So my main question is:
Are Wyches still a "cheap" but viable CC unit or are they only good at chasing tanks and walkers?

Second question:
How do you equip the units? Do you equip them to fulfill one role and nothing more or do you buy both haywire grenades and special cc weapons?

Third question:
What units from the wych cults is viable? Sucubi feels ok but does she outshine a cc Archon? How about Blood brides? worth their points?

// Druchii - Humble servant of Lady Archon Viconia Zaufin, Pirate princess of the void, Lady of pain, Torturer of millions, Ransacker of Jericho III.

Druchii wrote:

Are Wyches still a "cheap" but viable CC unit or are they only good at chasing tanks and walkers?

Sure, I wouldn't say they are that much worse then they were per say. I know some people who still use them heavily. Then again there are some who say they can't use them anymore so not everyone agrees (as is always the case).

Druchii wrote:

How do you equip the units? Do you equip them to fulfill one role and nothing more or do you buy both haywire grenades and special cc weapons?

I like to keep them cheaper. For example I'm not a fan of going all the way to an Agonizer on the champion (though some are) but I am a fan of the Venom Blade (especially since you'll be playing vs Orks). Haywire Grenades are IMO a good purchase (unless you know the enemy won't have vehicles or you're sure you don't need the extra anti-tank) and wyches weapons can be good, Razorflails/Hydra Gauntlets are pretty interchangeable but I am a fan of the Shardnet if you have a character in the unit with them.

Druchii wrote:

What units from the wych cults is viable? Sucubi feels ok but does she outshine a cc Archon? How about Blood brides? worth their points?

Succubi are very worthwhile as a cheap and effective boost to a squads combat ability. Just toss on a Venom Blade and Haywire Grenades and she's an amazingly cheap character for how much pain she can inflict. The Archon on the other hand is more for hunting characters or dealing with heavy armor thanks to the Huskblade. As for Blood Brides... I don't generally see them used too much but that just might be me. Generally I see Wyches for big melee squads and something like Icubi for small elite squads. Still like I said that might just be me.

It's an issue of utility. Not in the sense of "what utility does this Wych Weapon and this Hekatrix kill best?" but in the sense of synergy - what they do for your army as a whole.

Succubi don't really do much. Do you need things dead? Some more guns elsewhere in the army would do that better. Do you need to tie something down in Assault? Again, better options exist. If you're not looking to save points and not get some army-wide effect... a Haemonculus is 15 points cheaper and a free token. They're not that much different in durability, which really prevents utilizing all those Poison/S5 attacks that don't ignore armor. Oh, and enjoy overwatch.

Bloodbrides serve a very limited and specific utility - maxing out Shardnets and tarpitting units with lots of attacks lower than Strength 6. Everything else they can do - tarpitting other kinds of units or killing en masse - is done better by beast squads (usually) or MSU incubi (rarely, if they're needed at all).

Wyches, at first glance, seem equally weak compared to Warriors and Wracks. However, by virtue of being a shooting unit, Warriors are easier to hide and keep safe. Wracks, though they need an unlock, are a relatively cheap unlock from the Haemonculus, and exchange the rather worthless pistol (you might fail charges between overwatch and shooting!) for paired poison weapons. They also have an extra toughness, making most S4 anti-infantry wound on 4+ and a free pain token, for the same cost; the loss of fleet isn't too crippling.

What Wyches do well, and is really the most unique use for them, is running 15 with Haywires as a mobile tank trap. Nothing else does this well, and it is a real utility, unlike Bloodbrides tar-pitting Slugga Boyz or Khorne Berzerkers - and both have something somewhere else in the army to kill the Bloodbrides anyway.

Finally there's the ally conundrum - Dark Eldar have never been too fantastic at holding objectives. Why bother? Make someone else do it; focus on what DE do best. Wyches remain somewhat useful in the absence of the Fire Warriors with EMP grenades, and allow them to surpass Warriors if you can't take Troop Wracks due to HQ choice.

Firstly, if you're interested on Succubi, this was a brilliant post by Mushkilla who convinced me to try out a Succubus in lower point games. Succubi, Wyches, Raiders and Explosions!
I love my wyches but I struggle to use them as much in this edition for two reasons, overwatch and our shortened assault distance. However I am a fluff player so I make them work. But then again I don't play orks much and wyches really suck against orks, overwatch from orks slaughters us and then we can't kill enough of them to stop them wiping us in retaliation. So if your just building your army I might get one unit for fun but I wouldn't make them your centre piece troop.
After that however, I have to disagree with Aghanim. Wracks, in my opinion have two uses, unlocking cheap venoms or sitting on backfield objectives, they pale in comparison to wyches. I start my wyches with a pain token anyway so saves wise they are on par, the poisoned bonus is often balanced by combat drugs, and whatever toughness bonus is completely wasted by the fact they simultaneously strike with marines. Wyches, on the other hand strike first, get to shoot before assaulting, have fleet and wracks have neither. However against orks I may consider taking them as they would beat orks in the initiative and the toughness would be nice because orks are strength 3 if you assault. But yeah, the advantages are minimal anyway.
Also, never, ever run 15 wyches unless they are in a tantulus. Wyches outside a portal or a raider die. 15 won't fit in a raider and since you can't assault out of a portal they will get shot off next turn. They just don't work in these numbers and anyway, 7 wyches is a guaranteed wreck against almost any vehicle. If wyches are in the open for even a single enemy turn they are gone. 7 to 8 is a nice number for grenades and assaulting, espicially if accompanied by a succubus or haemunculus.
So just remember, they probably wont be competitive in your meta, but you can make one or two units work if you really want to.

Lord Clazaryn wrote:

Also, never, ever run 15 wyches unless they are in a tantulus. Wyches outside a portal or a raider die (bad idea in portal because they wlll get shot anyway the turn they come out). If wyches are in the open for even a single enemy turn they are gone. 7 to 8 is a nice number for grenades and assaulting, espicially if accompanied by a succubus or haemunculus.

Succubus doesn't do anything besides give them more attacks - does adding her give you anything Razorwing Flocks, Khymeraes, and more guns doesn't? Why can't the model work as an Archon, with changes?

If you're taking them for fluff reasons, that isn't for me to judge, but this is a poor way to make them work. Giving them 2 CCWs and calling them Wracks (use only masked Wych/Reaver heads if you must) is pretty easy as far as conversions go, but if you want Wych rules too... why bother with a Raider? Consider the following outcomes:

1. Your opponent is going first, and can shoot at the Raider of 7-8 Wyches because it's far enough forward to actually grant a net gain in movement to Wyches. Once they're done killing any Ravagers they can reach, guess what's next? Hopefully it doesn't explode.

2. Your opponent is going first, and you hid the Wyches and any Ravagers carefully to avoid being targettable, at least without facing reprisal. Normally this is smart for you, but the Wyches actually have a smaller threat range because of how Raiders work now.

3. You are going first. Your opponent isn't particularly worried about letting you control the center, since they know Dark Eldar are too weak to actually be in the center, and has put their most valuable vehicles out of the Wyches' range anyway, because they are confident that their superior firepower will let them attrition you.

4. You are going first. Rather than let the Wyches scare them, they refuse flank and use a combat squad or two as chaff. Enjoy overwatch and the subsequent beatdown, if 7-8 wyches even survive.

Also 15 will die - that's the point of a fast, sacrificial unit. However that's double 7-8, which means it takes double the firepower to kill them. If you really care about them, you want them to do something first, right? Start them as far forward as feasible. 12" deploy + 6" move + ~10" assault means it's a safe bet that your opponent HAS to kill them before setting foot in midfield. In fact... don't even try for a Turn 1 Assault. It's kind of silly with them. Start in cover, Fleet on your Charge will easily compensate for difficult terrain. They think they can move to the middle and pop smoke? Counter with Wyches, don't jeopardize a Raider for Turn 1 lulz.

Pistols are not good at all. You're already risking overwatch, there's a very good chance you'll fail to even reach combat if you shoot someone too - fleet is nice, but you don't want to rely on it. How many Marine attacks are you stopping at I6? Half hit, a third wound, a third are unsaved. One in 18 attacks kills a marine, whereas they hit half the time, wound 2/3, and half are unsaved, so that's 1 in 6. So unless you're willing to lend a die out, is needing 3 Wyches for every 1 Marine to break even on combat res (assuming they're smart and always challenge any Hekatrix) really cutting it?

Wyches worked before not just because of the 4++, but because Wych Weapons halved enemy WS, and Wyches were WS5. So Space Marines and GEQ hit you on 5+, too. That's a huge nerf nobody notices.

The OP asked if they were viable outside chasing tanks and walkers. The answer to that is no, sadly, and even that is done better by beasts. If they want to use them anyway, that's their choice, though I did mention the quick, easy Wrack conversion I did with mine. Otherwise, anything one does is really no better than anything else.

I have to disagree...the fact that 2 point haywire grenade upgrade can blow up a landraider makes them the tank killing queens.

Oh and @Druchii I also love the Raging Hero Blood Vestals! I got an email yesterday saying that they were finallllllllly shipped. Beyond excited to paint them.

I have to disagree with you aghemar because they have a lot of utility in the fact they can handle a good amount of different threats. Give them haywires and they will be able to wreck any vehicle they run into, the pistols are useful because that only ups the amount of damage you do and it comes before any overwatch so you have less shots coming at you as you charge. You also are saying overwatch is scarier than it is but in reality overwatch isn't all that good unless it's being used by something that can put out large amounts of firepower like IG or Orks. Another thing that makes wyches good is that they can still do well in close combat and they will beat most troops choices and can go toe to toe with a lot of elite choices. They may not be as good as they used to be in close combat but they got a huge boon in the way of haywires making them even better than they were against tanks. All in all they may not be the best at close combat compared to what they were but they are a versatile troops choice that is useful in a lot of different situations. You also talk about how you run the risk of their raider exploding but most lists include a lot of raider or venom transports anyway and they always run the risk of blowing up spectacularly first turn, it comes with the vehicles in our army regardless of what unit you have in it. Wyches are worth it in my opinion and the VB is a huge boon to any squad so I would recommend trying to add one into every squad via a hekatrix plus the hekatrix can get you a PGL which has a certain amount of utility to it too. Take all that I said carefully because Agahnim is right about wyches not being as good in close combat as they used to be but I feel like he is taking his thought on it to the extreme as they are still useful and good. Of course it also depends a lot on what is more synergistic with your list to see if you want more shooty elements or close combat elements. Just remember wyches are more of a jack of all trades unit now in that they can assault things and hold them up or beat them depending on what it is or you can send them tank hunting with haywires. The most important thing is to make sure you get a feel for them before you use them competitively because they can be used really effectively, but you have to know where they're good and at what point you start pushing them past their limits

Wyches in 6th are our swiss knife: They can deal with armour and infantry equally but like all DE units they require a little finesse to utilize properly.

Sure overwatch does hurt them but unless you are facing tons of flamers or a shooty mob it really ain't bad. Plus why would you charge into something like that in the first place.

Wyches are all about what you intend to do with them. If you want to tarpit then keep their cost down and keep the squad small. Want to tank hunt then stock on haywire and a venom as 5 wyches will pretty much wreck anything with an av value. Want to go toe to toe with infantry then grab an agonizer, shardnet/hydra, add a succubus and you have a rather scary squad against anything but TEQ squads.

See where i am going with this? Wyches are a troop choice that has multi purpose, how you chose to use them is up to you but for the point cost its hard to go wrong with them. Just stay mindful that they are a cheap infantry unit don't go off expecting miracles out of them and they will be fine.

The only unit that i find hard to justify in 6th are bloodbrides, they do not have enough over plain Wyches to justify the higher cost and the elite slot.

The problem with wyches is this:

1. In both 5th and 6th edition, as it says on page 94 of the codex: 'All wyches (are) vulnerable to ranged attacks due to their poor armour.' Therefore (and I'm quoting) 'It's imperative your wyches... get stuck in as early as possible.'

2. In 5th edition, 'as early as possible' meant Turn 1 or Turn 2. If you could survive one turn of shooting from your opponent, you were golden.

3. In 6th edition, getting stuck in is much more difficult. There is Overwatch, a smaller charge distance, no assaulting from reserves, and so on. Therefore you have to survive several turns of shooting from your opponent, and it only takes one good shot to kill the whole squad. (Raiders are deathtraps!)

I do keep trying. Today I followed the advice from someone in these forums. I changed my list to the one they recommended. I brought night shields. I used terrain to limit the marines' shooting. I had a 4+ jink save from turbo-boosting. Still, one dreadnought with twin-linked autocannons shot down a raider in turn 2. Casualties? Eight out of eight wyches dead.

Turn 3? Same thing, except three wyches survived to be shot down by bolters. A third squad of wyches did reach the dreadnought with only two casualties and killed it dead.

They were dead on Turn 4.

So, I did manage to kill a dreadnought and it only cost me half my army! So, not a big fan, no.

Just a side note, wyches were never WS5 without combat drugs... So the old half WS weapons only made it 5's to hit one one drug result.

That said, they have never been about smashing units to bits (incubi are for that)

Wyches for me are tank hunters and tar pits. Thats it.

Haywire grenades are mandatory for me and with a shard net or 2 they can lick down better units than themselves. They probably won't win but meh.

On the overwatch thing... Any losses are off set by shooting prior to charging.

Massaen wrote:

On the overwatch thing... Any losses are off set by shooting prior to charging.

No they won't! You'll get about 7 hits, causing maybe 3-4 wounds, all of which will be saved, while your opponent scores 3-4 hits all of which will wound, and none of which you'll save. That's just maths!

Massaen wrote:

Wyches for me are tank hunters and tar pits. Thats it.

They probably won't win but meh.

Some endorsement!

Barking Agatha wrote:

Massaen wrote:

On the overwatch thing... Any losses are off set by shooting prior to charging.

No they won't! You'll get about 7 hits, causing maybe 3-4 wounds, all of which will be saved, while your opponent scores 3-4 hits all of which will wound, and none of which you'll save. That's just maths!

It's rather selective maths though. You seem to be rounding down for your shooting and rounding up for your opponents!

15-man Wych squad (180) charges 10-man Tactical Squad with plasma gun and missile launcher (180):

Overwatch: 16 bolter shots, 2 plasma shots 1 Krak Missile. 2.66 bolter hits, 0.33 plasma hits, 0.16 missile hits. , 1.77, 0.27 and 0.13 wounds respectively = 2.17 dead Wyches
Wych Shooting: 12.83 splinter pistols = 8.55 hits, 4.27 wounds, 1.4 unsaved wounds

I'm not saying it's a walk in the park but let's not exaggerate!

Count Adhemar wrote:

It's rather selective maths though.

I was just being funny, of course it isn't maths at all. It's what happens though!

I know what you mean. Mathematically speaking I have a ~60% chance of damaging a vehicle with a meltagun. In practise, I have a 0.0000000001% chance. My melta shots are legendary in my group!

5 wyches, haywire grenades used for tank hunting. 60points to wipe out any vehicle you get them into.
Depends on your meta, if they are useful or not.

I wish I could get them to work, because I've been dying to make a firefly reaver themed 40k army sense I first saw firefly in theaters and I think wyches in venom/raiders would be perfect. For the life of me though I can't get them to do anything constructive, least not with this codex. Warriors and trueborn just work out so significantly better for me...

I'm new to DE, and just about to play my first DE game, but it seems to me a Haemonculus with a LG adds a nice little short range shooting, and adds in a 5+ save at the cost of giving up fleet.

Seems a nice way to make a Raider mounted unit a bit more survivable, and if I'm correct, the speed of the transport should be enough that I don't really miss the fleet move that often...

You can always choose to leave the Haemonculus in the Raider. That way the Wyches get the token and keep their fleet.

A squad of 10 Wyches in a Raider is a cheap, strong close combat unit that will beat a lot of other units. I like to run Hekatrixes with Power Swords to make best use of the Combat Drugs, but I understand why most people go for Venom Blades.

You can go flat-out to get out of sight and close to the enemy while also getting a 4+ cover save.

Also remember, yes you can only move 6" and disembark, but you move 6" upon disembarkation, then you can assault with re-rolls, so we actually lost very little assault range in 6th ed, and now our Raiders are further from danger.

I've made my point already and supported it, but it's worth pointing out that:

pantofful wrote:

I'm new to DE, and just about to play my first DE game

This is the problem with being unable to reconcile "it worked this one time" or "they are situationally good" or "if my opponent isn't very good or also brought a fluff list". It's fine that you like the models, it's fine that you like the story, but if you don't make that explicit, you are deliberately misleading someone if you don't make that distinction between aesthetics and power.

Let's not be that greasy used car salesman, except we don't even get to see the profits. At $30 a box of Wyches, they need to know the quality of what they're getting, that the motor works but it's no longer street legal. Some people like and collect cool-looking cars and really don't care about how well they perform, but they need to make an informed decision and having been in this guy's shoes it's infuriating to see people continue being dishonest.

Nobody should say do/don't buy this or do/don't use this or that, and I don't think anyone has except to answer others' questions, but it's important to make clear that Wyches got a lot worse, they have much nicer models, and how to mitigate their struggles if you want to take them anyway. Because I've yet to see anyone here offer some examples of these "lots of other units" they beat, or why you can't just shoot dreadnoughts with Dark Lances.

P.S. This is what "meta" actually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming I think you might be putting a lot more emphasis on it than it deserves, what is good in one environment will usually be strong in other 40k environments.

Agahnim wrote:

This is the problem with being unable to reconcile "it worked this one time" or "they are situationally good" or "if my opponent isn't very good or also brought a fluff list". It's fine that you like the models, it's fine that you like the story, but if you don't make that explicit, you are deliberately misleading someone if you don't make that distinction between aesthetics and power.

Nobody should say do/don't buy this or do/don't use this or that, and I don't think anyone has except to answer others' questions, but it's important to make clear that Wyches got a lot worse, they have much nicer models, and how to mitigate their struggles if you want to take them anyway.

Hear hear!

Anggul wrote:

What are you doing with your Raiders out in the open and easily shoot-able? You don't deploy them right up front, you go Flat Out in your Turn, then assault next turn. This is basic Dark Eldar stuff and hasn't changed in 6th edition. In fact in many ways it's easier. They've lost hardly any charge range at all as even though the Raider can only move 6", you also disembark 6" and have re-rolls on your charge distance.

Even with the 4+ jinking save from going Flat Out, all it takes is one failed save and boom! the Raider is gone and the wyches with it.

Anggul wrote:

You forget Combat Drugs. It's hard to mathhammer wyches because of them, but generally they will greatly increase your damage output. A squad of Wyches will generally beat most types of Space Marine squad.

Even if they did, and they made it into combat more or less intact, then what? If you win they either a) pass their morale test and beat you next turn, or b) fail their morale test, run, you catch them, and they beat you next turn. Or c) fail their morale test, run, you somehow fail to catch them, and they shoot you next turn.

Here's wot I think:

A few months ago 6th edition came out and a lot of people began rending their clothes and screaming 'Gloom, doom and woe! 'Tis the end of everything!' while stomping on their miniatures, which was very silly. But... some of us reacted by beaming (dark) sunlight and (evil) rainbows and declaring that 6th edition DE were the bestest thing ever, which is very silly too. Now the gloom-and-doomers have moved on to screaming at passers-by on street corners, but the rest of us are still unwilling to accept that anything in the Dark Eldar codex could possibly be less than perfect in 6th and might need a bit of updating. No one wants to be mistaken for one of the mad shouty people who break their minis, but there is such a thing as going too far the other way.

GW has said that some units have been made weaker by 6th, while others have received a boost. Wyches have been made weaker. I'm sure that will be dealt with eventually, although it's probably not a priority and other armies need updates much more badly than we do. In the meantime I don't think it helps anyone to insist that our codex made it through to 6th with nothing but changes for the better. That would be unlikely for any codex, wouldn't it?

I disagree with the point on wyches being bad, they honestly are still very good. They have multi-purpose through haywire that got boosted to make them extremely reliable AT once you get them to a vehicle you want dead, and they are still very good at close combat, they never got worse at it just shooty units got buffed some. The shooty units' buff though can be countered with shooting their splinter pistols which for most people wasn't a normal thing in 5th and it can be a big help or here's a crazy idea but you can still use wyches to take on elite assault units and they'll still have a decent chance of winning most of the time or at least do a great job of tying them up. That is something that seems to have been overlooked in this thread to me but wyches are great at taking on elite deathstar-like assault units that should be better than them but they are very able to hold their own. Oh and that shooty unit that makes you so scared because of overwatch isn't that scary if you weaken it with your own shooting elements or multi-charge, no one ever said you have to take the fair fights.

exactly!! the DE are probably one of the more fragile races in the game so of course we have to almost avoid a fair fight, it's just not the way we work