Cheap HQs

I've been fiddling with a small list for 500pt value games and I'm considering cheap HQs (my preferred decked out huskblade archon isn't really an option at 500 points).

The standard Haemonculus with a Liquifier is a good buy of course but I wanted to talk about some other builds for a second. The Succubus is easy enough to build and a good value but I have no melee in my force so I have no place to put her. What are people's opinions on the bare bones Blaster Archon? It's about as cheap as an archon comes while still being able to support a squad (I'm putting the HQ in a blasterborn squad btw if only because that's the only spot they'll fit) but it seems like it's such an inefficient use of points. 75 for 1 blaster shot a turn? Yickes.

Then there are the various equipment options for a Haemo. I know people have mentioned the idea of a gunslinger blaster pistol archon, what about a gunslinger stinger pistol Haemo? Quite cheap at only 5/10 points (depending on if you go 2 stingers or a stinger/splinter pistol) but not much range and little AP. Still seems like it has potential especially if you don't plan on getting into melee.

Anyway, thoughts? Cheap HQs you enjoy using? I'm all ears.

*Edit: Huh, I was sure I posted this in tactics... I know that's where this should be. *Sigh*

In a small point games Succubus is a melee on her own. Stick her with some trueborns or whatever you are using in venoms or raider.

Blaster Archon also can work nicely.

Regarding the Succubus being melee on her own:
I don't know, I'm a bit uncomfortable having my warlord run out on her own even at this low a points level. Especially since it's easily possible for her to "bounce" off her target if she only has a venom blade (even a basic tac squad can beat her/get away with no loses without a ton of luck really being a factor). I like the venom blade and respect its cost vs benefit but when it's a single character vs a squad I don't really like playing averages as much as I do when I have the cushion of a squad. And then there is the fact that with no squad she's in real danger of overwatch death and so on. I might like the idea a bit better with an agonizer in hand but at that point she's getting a bit more expensive then I'd like (we're starting to get to the point totals where I can just take an archon with a shadow field+gear). Can it work? Am I being too worried over nothing?

Regarding the Blaster Archon:
So he's worth his cost for what he does for you? I suppose since it fills the mandatory HQ slot that has a value of its own so looking at it as 75 points for 1 shot a turn isn't entirely fair. Still it does match the squad he's going in so it's not a wasted shot at least.

well, i'm still new to all this, i haven't even been in a game yet,
but why not a Dracon?

give him ghostplate or a PGL and a blaster. 32-62 pts depending on how you outfit him.

like i said though, i'm new. currently working on making my HQ Archon.

Dark Minion

Dracons are no longer HQs, they are squad leaders for Trueborn and as such don't fill a standard force HQ slot.
Your choices for HQ are Archon, Succubus, and Haemonculus (or special characters).

Haemi for wracks as troops. Venoms, ravager. Skip trueborns here unless you kit them with SC.

I'm not asking for help with an army list, this thread is about cheap HQs and their load outs.

Haemi with hexrifle then as you want him in shooty unit. But I usually run him with VB nd LG for cheapness. Also don't forget you can take 3 for one HQ slot. If you want more LG/PT's for example in squad.

Haemie with wracks is pretty nice, furious charge with two PT's. Perhaps more mopup than hammer unit, but has its uses. And certainly in small 500 pts games.

In low points games, thus far I am a fan of the Archon on the cheapside and the Succubus Support HQ.

Kit the Archon out for either shooting or CC and not the Uber huskbladed CC monster eating hat machine that cost well over 130pts... simple, cheap etc...

Kit her with a Venomblade... maybe some grenades or something. put her in a squad and just charge things.

Haemie with a liquifier and venom blade. Don't over think this one.

Cheap and useful HQs:

Succubus, venom blade - 70

Succubus, agoniser - 85

Archon, shadow field, venom blade - 95

Archon, shadow field, venom blade, blaster - 110

Haemi, venom blade, liquifier - 65

Haemi, power axe, liquifier - 70

Ancient, venom blade, liquifier - 95

Ancient, power axe, liquifier - 100

Hope that helps.

Cheap HQ's as listed above are plentiful and varied. It all depends on what is in your list as too which one is the best.
A list with wracks, then you need a Heami. A CC based list with wyches, probably a succubus, blasterborn unit in your list then probably a blaster toting archon.
It really is a case of horses for courses.

Quote :

Regarding the Succubus being melee on her own:
I don't know, I'm a bit uncomfortable having my warlord run out on her own even at this low a points level. Especially since it's easily possible for her to "bounce" off her target if she only has a venom blade (even a basic tac squad can beat her/get away with no loses without a ton of luck really being a factor).

I should really destroy my habit of saying something presuming all the details about what im saying is obvious.

Naturally Succubi should only charge severely damaged enemy squads or combat incapable squad and also she really might want something more to venom blade. Like Power Spear.

Its the question of choice between alternatives, actually. 1HQ is mandatory.

In lower point games thats one blaster per turn that almost always hits, shot from cheap archon, its a pain token and liqifier from haemy, its assault element from succubi. I chose succubi, cause right assault can make all the difference in the world.

Thread Moved to Tactics

*Takes Mod Hat Off*

Personally In a low point game it depends on the list. If you want a shooty list, you cant go wrong with archon w/ blaster. That BS7 shot is great, and he can take a wound or two if your raider or venom drops out of the sky.

For an assault element, the succubi is one of our cheapest and highest damage ouput models we have. Give her an venomblade, agoniser, or even a power weapon of your choice and let her go to town!!!

Another viable answer is the 95pt WVU (wrack vehicle upgrade) for a venom. To spam this though, you need a haemie. Also a Haemie isnt bad for an assault unit as well, as he gives a pain token to them at the start, and a flamer for overwatch. Sadly if you keep him with them, they lose fleet, which is almost vital this game.

I think the trick is to determine what you want out of an HQ and how best to get it.

Does your army have a backstory?
Take appropriate HQ as needed.

Do you want to unlock Wracks?
Haemonculus.
S/he gets a...
Power Maul if you want to hurt Tanks. S6 on the charge, Hi-Ho!
Hexrifle if you're going to sit with a shooty squad.
Nothing if you just want the cheapest HQ possible.
Liquifier otherwise.

Do you want to go first?
Baron Sathonyx

Do you want to just do a ton of damage in combat?
Baron

Do you want to hunt enemy Characters?
Baron

Do you
Baron

I tried various Archon/Succubus builds. Turns out you aren't really saving points if you don't get the maximum possible value for those points. And if you're not just taking one of those Haemonculus configurations, you're taking the Baron because there's just too much utility there.

Agahnim wrote:

Do you want to just do a ton of damage in combat?
Baron

Do you want to hunt enemy Characters?
Baron

Do you
Baron

Lol when did baron ever do a ton of damage??? He is at most 4 S6 attacks, come against your basic MEQ statline, and he is on average killing .740 marines. Compare that to a succubus w/ Agoniser (still cheaper than him) and she is killing 2.001 marines. Or a succubus w/ venomblade (still cheaper and just for Mush) and she is killing 1.110 marines.

As for a character hunter... most characters are rocking 3+ armor atleast (so back to first arguement) and/or Termie Armor, which is even worse for him. Im not downing Baron usefulness, but he isnt an auto-include.

Also I know there are two rolls before the game starts now, and isnt it deployment than go first??? so barons is +1 to deployment, so does it now help us go first anymore???

Edit: Had someone looked it up, so its deploy objective roll, then pick side roll (and they go first) so baron still helps go first.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Lol when did baron ever do a ton of damage??? He is at most 4 S^ attacks, come against your basic MEQ statline, and he is on average killing .740 marines. Compare that to a succubus w/ Agoniser (still cheaper than him) and she is killing 2.001 marines. Or a succubus w/ venomblade (still cheaper and just for Mush) and she is killing 1.110 marines.

As for a character hunter... most characters are rocking 3+ armor atleast (so back to first arguement) and/or Termie Armor, which is even worse for him. Im not downing Baron usefulness, but he isnt an auto-include.

I agree. Whilst I think the Baron is probably our best HQ I don't take him for his combat ability and I struggle to think of any enemy characters that I would want him to go one on one with. I take him for Hit & Run, Stealth and Grenades on a large Beast unit.

Actually Baron has 5 attacks on the charge (3 base +1 for hellglaive +1 for charge), str 7 if you have furious charge, not that it changes your point much but it's good to keep in mind.

Don't forget his Hammer of Wrath attack (which he inexplicably gets to add his +2 strength skyboard bonus to) for a total of 6 attacks (Furious Charge is a bit hard to get on him though, at least to start with, so I'm not sure if mentioning that possibility is all that important). Anyway, yeah if we're reaching the 100point mark in HQs (I was more looking at HQs/gear compinations that were cheaper then that) then the Baron is an excellent buy and a standard option (like the Haem with Liquifier and such).

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Sadly if you keep him with them, they lose fleet, which is almost vital this game.

Ah, but you can still charge the Haem independently, freeing up Fleet AND soaking Overwatch, while leaving the token behind. Just don't make this one your Warlord.

Tony Spectacular wrote:

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Sadly if you keep him with them, they lose fleet, which is almost vital this game.

Ah, but you can still charge the Haem independently, freeing up Fleet AND soaking Overwatch, while leaving the token behind. Just don't make this one your Warlord.

This is exactly what I do, to great effect.

Seshiru wrote:

Actually Baron has 5 attacks on the charge (3 base +1 for hellglaive +1 for charge), str 7 if you have furious charge, not that it changes your point much but it's good to keep in mind.

Actually he has 4 attacks on the charge (3 base +1 for charge) at S6 (3 base +2 from skyboard + 1 from hellglaive) and a HoW if you dont move 12" in the movement phase at S5 (3 base + 2 for skyboard). He still doesnt do any consistant damage. He doesnt have a power weapon, and after that first charge, he is screwed (hence why he has hit and run, and the ability to re-roll it) but you still have a second turn that he is a measly 3 attacks at S3... yah, such a great character hunter...

Edit: so I was told hellglaives do give you +1 attack, but my arguement still stands. He doesnt do enough damage and isnt consistant enough to win challenges. Yah he might be able to kill some chump sargie, but any multi-wound model will own him.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Seshiru wrote:

Actually Baron has 5 attacks on the charge (3 base +1 for hellglaive +1 for charge), str 7 if you have furious charge, not that it changes your point much but it's good to keep in mind.

Actually he has 4 attacks on the charge (3 base +1 for charge) at S6 (3 base +2 from skyboard + 1 from hellglaive) and a HoW if you dont move 12" in the movement phase at S5 (3 base + 2 for skyboard).

No, Seshiru is correct. He has a Hellglaive and they grant an additional attack. 3 base +1 for Hellglaive +1 for charge = 5 attacks

He's still pony in a fight but that extra attack could be important.

Im not sure why theres a debate raging over baron fighting marine or better equivalent characters, thats obviously not what hes for. Him, and hellions in general infact, are for drowning seas of lower toughness low armour save troops in non power weapon attacks. Thats my thoughts anyways. Use the right tool for the job.

Mud

The problem is that your most common opponent is a MEQ style army. On top of that I will admit that they arent ment to fight another combat unit, but when you put so many points into a unit (like people do with baron + hellions or baron + beasts) then they will normally be targeted by the opponent's close combat unit.

Also lets talk about the challenge system. With the challenge system no IC is safe. You might consider Baron isnt made to fight another character, but if baron is the only thing allowing hellions to hit and run, or Baron is giving the beasts grenades, hit and run, and their last leadership that his holding them together, then he will definately be challenged by every sargie weilding some form of weapon. The sooner baron dies, the sooner this "unit" become a non threat. He only has two wounds, and once that shadowfield is popped, he is a sitting duck.

Yes Baron is good, and yes he is a great force multiplier, but you also have to keep him safe. As what has been pointed out, he isnt made to fight against something that can bite back, and my only point is you have to be careful and protect him.