Lelith and Quad Gun

So Lelith's special rule The Penetrating Blade simply states that her attacks ignore armor saves. The title of the rule seems to imply that it only applies to close combat, but fluff aside, since it doesn't specify do you suppose that that means that she gets to fire the Quad gun at BS 9 and makes it ignore armor?

Is shooting defined as a model's "attacks"? Generally speaking I tend to think "attack" means melee/granted by the attack stat.

Page 12 of the rule book says shooting attack... Thus Lilith technically can ignore armour saves while throwing grenades or using a quad gun

I'm intrigued by super killy plasma grenades.

This is definitely one of those instances where it's not how it was intended to be written but then you can try and justify it with fluff. You can justify anything with fluff.

I'm not even sure you can justify it with fluff but RAW it is correct (until FAQ'd). I wouldn't particularly enjoy playing someone who wanted to attempt it though.

I could see Lilith being so accurate she could land a grenade on a weak point in armour and thus ignore it

Certainly an interesting way of reading the rule:

'The penetrating blade'

Lelith places her blows with such uncanny precision she can always find a chink in the enemy's armour. Her attacks ignore armour saves.

The name of the rule refers to a blade, and the rule itself mentions her 'blows' definately a close combat term.
I dont think you could get this to wash with many people if you tried to use it for shotting attacks.

IM sure you COULD.

But if i did im sure i would get a lot of dirt looks, especially if i thew a grenade on some deep striked termies. LOL

Fluff justification: She cooks the grenade perfectly so that it explodes at head height. Inflicting terrible damage!

If anyone complains, simply hold up the Grey Knights codex and say "Really?"

If Draigo can get pulled from the Realm of Chaos to momentarily fight for the Grey Knights, Lelith's accuracy with all her attacks is certainly within the realm of possibility.

And anyways, other characters rules specify Melee attacks. Penetrating Blade does not... Therefore its all her attacks unless FAQ'd otherwise. It's not an oversight.

Balisong wrote:

IAnd anyways, other characters rules specify Melee attacks. Penetrating Blade does not... Therefore its all her attacks unless FAQ'd otherwise. It's not an oversight.

You're right about it being (RAW) all her attacks until FAQ'd but I very much doubt that it was not an oversight. Lelith had no ranged attacks in 5e so there was no way for it to mean anything other than melee but now in 6th she has a grenade attack and also has the option to shoot gun emplacements etc. This is highly unlikely to have been taken into account when the codex was written as 6th was still nearly 2 years away.

Count Adhemar wrote:

You're right about it being (RAW) all her attacks until FAQ'd but I very much doubt that it was not an oversight. Lelith had no ranged attacks in 5e so there was no way for it to mean anything other than melee but now in 6th she has a grenade attack and also has the option to shoot gun emplacements etc. This is highly unlikely to have been taken into account when the codex was written as 6th was still nearly 2 years away.

I agree completely. Come on people. You can say that it's technically within the rules if you want but lets not kid ourselves that it's anything more then an issue with the new rules or that it was in any way intended. Nor that anyone will play it this way.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Balisong wrote:

IAnd anyways, other characters rules specify Melee attacks. Penetrating Blade does not... Therefore its all her attacks unless FAQ'd otherwise. It's not an oversight.

You're right about it being (RAW) all her attacks until FAQ'd but I very much doubt that it was not an oversight. Lelith had no ranged attacks in 5e so there was no way for it to mean anything other than melee but now in 6th she has a grenade attack and also has the option to shoot gun emplacements etc. This is highly unlikely to have been taken into account when the codex was written as 6th was still nearly 2 years away.

There's no doubt that as it was written at the time 6th wasn't taken into account. The fact that it wasn't addressed in the recent DE 6th FAQ is likely not an oversight though, as they addressed other things like how Lady Malys's Crystal Heart works.

Edit:

They also addressed another of Lelith's Rules:

"Page 49 – Lelith Hesperax, A League Apart.
Change the first sentence to: “If Lelith’s Weapon Skill is higher
than that of all enemy models she is in base contact with, she
gets a number of bonus Attacks equal to the difference
between her Weapon Skill and the highest Weapon Skill from
amongst those enemies.”"

This means they looked at her entry and examined all her rules, finding no other changes needed at the time.

I would imagine they are waiting to see how it affects the game before making any further changes or "Working as intended"...

Yeah, cos GW are known for their tight editorial control and attention to detail. It's an oversight and to even pretend that is is working as intended, well...I go back to my earlier comment that I don't think I'd enjoy playing someone who wanted to play that way.

Honestly guys I don't see why this is such a crazy idea that she wouldn't ignore armour saves. The rule says in its fluff the reason she ignores armour saves is because of where she places her attacks, you can aim a gun to hit a chink in someone's armour just like you can aim where you place you sword or knife to get through someone's armour. Just because you couldn't do it before doesn't make it insane of you to think it could be done now, after all it is a new rules set so rules are going to change and adapt

I don't care what the fluff arguments are. Those are entirely up to the individual as to whether you believe them or not. Fluff is whatever you want it to be but one thing it isn't is rules. This rules situation came into being due to new rules being added to the game that didn't exist before combined with loose wording on an older ability. Until such time as it's confirmed not to be an oversight I can't see it as anything but. I mean do you really think GW was like "You know what Lelith needs in 6th? The ability to pierce Terminator Armor with thrown grenades and gun emplacements." Really?

I mean come on be serious for a minute. The rule is called 'The penetrating blade'. As much as it's fun to come up with fluff reasons, pretending it isn't an oversight is just silly!

If it was called "deadly accuracy" or "Piercing precision" then I might have some doubts (no really knowing GW track record), but "penetrating blade"?

Still in terms of RAW it works fine, so fun against that "special" kind of player one occasionally encounters.

Totally with you, Mush. I'd never play this against my buddies, but at a tourney? Against a WAAC powergamer? I'd not be so concerned about how pleased he was to be playing me.

Used it today against the local powergamer in a 2v2. Big Khornminator squad dropped down and was about to eat my friends IG next turn. But he didn't recon with Lilith who was near by, jumped out of raider, threw grenade but it scattered 8 but WAIT BS 9, thats what im talking about! since they all had to be in base contact i killed 5 termies out of 7 with the grenade, killed another with a blast pistol and torrented the rest while Lilith beat up the chaos lord. You wish you could see his face and got others involved but they all agreed RAW was she ignored armour, but i still got evils for the rest of the game

If it makes you feel better I get Evil Looks all the time for Night Shields.

Even when I explain that my vehicles have them, and what they do before the game starts.

"What do you mean I lost my unit's shots? Well, then I' going to shoot this unit..."

Uh, sorry... I told you ahead of time... They shot, couldn't hit...

That used to work but in this editition with pre-measurment they can check if there in range first then shoot. But they have to measure first otherwise then as you said they lose there shots i think.

I usually wait for them to make their first roll to hit before I remind them that they just lost their shots, and that there's no reason to roll anymore for that unit...

That way they can't say they didn't shoot at the Unit and it also saves them from making all their rolls to wound, etc...

not true alex. If they declare they are shooting the target, then they have to shoot. Sure, before there is no pre-measuring, which made it work a good number of times. But it still is effective as people forget because the tendency of just remember their rules only.

You ofc have to tell them what is on the vehicle, and what nightshields do, but that is only if they ask. If they just measure, then declare to shoot the target, you then check for range at that time. At that time you tell them they forgot nightshields, and bam... shots wasted.

The first time it happens in a game I would tell them before they roll to hit and allow them to choose a different target. After that though, it's their problem if they forget.

^ this. Unless it's TFG. In which case,