Thinking about atypical Dark Eldar army builds

I'm going to start with a caveat - I realize that the thing I'm going to talk about here is nigh unto heresy or at least NOT the best or most efficient way to build a Dark Eldar army. I realize the army gets vastly better with transports, or, if you are not running transports, with WWPs. I don't know if I've been thinking about this just because I am masochistic, contrarian, or just because I like puzzles. Regardless, I'm trying to figure out what kind of a DE army I could make, and how would you do battle using it, if I followed these two rules:

No vehicles except flyers.

Probably no WWPs.

Obviously, the army gets slower AND loses firepower without venoms and to a lesser extent raiders. I'm eschewing WWPs because I am not sure I can get them far enough forward to be worth while, but in the right build I might bring them back in.

In thinking about this, I found myself looking at hellions and wracks as troop options. That means the Baron and 1+ Haemi's as the HQ's. I might even like Hellions w/o the Baron attached because they can move quickly to grab/contest objectives. I'd also look hard at Reavers, Beastmasters, and maybe Scourges in order to still give myself some mobility. The wracks would come up behind (or maybe WWP in if I ended up using those) to hold things with their better toughness and FNP. I don't know how useful the warriors would be, but they would offer some ability to bring splinter cannons and dark light weapons that is otherwise lacking except for the Reavers. I think my heavies would be a flyer and two talos, one of which might be equipped for anti-vehicle with the heat lances. So, in essence this is very very roughly what I would be looking at in a 1500 - 1850 point range:

* Baron
* Haemis (at least 2 - 1 to give a token to the Beastmasters and one for the Hellions. If a third, it would go with the warriors.)
* Unit Hellions (grabbing objectives and light anti-infantry)
* Unit of Wracks (anti-infantry and holding objectives)
* Large unit Warriors (holding an objective and anti-infantry)
* Reavers (both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry)
* Beastmasters (assault unit)
* Flyer (anti infantry or vehicle)
* Talos (anti-infantry and assault)
* Talos (anti-vehicle and assault)

Based on this, the army seems more built for assault than shooting so maybe the warriors are expendable, but I hate losing the splinter cannons. Maybe I could put in some Trueborn to fill that gap and have a second unit of wracks or hellions?

If you could not use vehicles except flyers what would you run and how would you use it. I'm looking for general discussion here, not specific point counts.

If I was limited to no vehicles, depending on the points of the list, I would definitely find a place for harlequins. I would also use them before using hellions, as for a small speed difference you get a far more survivable unit with better armour penetration in assaults. I guess with the Baron helliions are scoring and get stealth, but I still like the harlies.

To me harlequins 2 biggest downsides are (1) as an elite they are denial not scoring, and (2) they can't take a transport so are slower than other vehicle-based assault units. #1 is a factor... but #2 is negated by your decision to go infantry, so harlies will be fairly quick with fleet and ignoring terrain.

Also, without Raiders and Ravagers, I think you're going to really feel the loss of anti-tank unless you take a couple Trueborn AT teams... maybe 3man, 2DL units.

The reason for the hellions was to have a troop unit with some speed. I also see an AT weakness and was hoping that the flyer could cover some of that. Plus, maybe help from one Talos and/or the Reavers. Hadn't thought about Haliquins though.

I would second harlies. Take baron and hellions and some harlies and dark lance trueborn squads. Maxed out that gives you 6 dl without double force org. Maube scourges for more AT too. It definitely seems possible!

Also hellions x15-20 with baron and a power lance starting with fnp is awesome. If u can get thay 2nd pain token giving furious charge then they become very useful. If you have a 20 man squad then thats 40 poison shots and 60 attacks at 5 str on the charge. It takes some finesse to make them work but they can really shine.

@curebdc

Would you use Hellions for all your troop choices?

Dan

No haha. I use 1 big squad and the rest 5 man warrior squads in venoms. But if you want no transports... it may not be a bad choice. Maybe 1 haemonc per hellion squad? To ensure fnp for each squad. Maybe along with a big squad of warriors too. Itd be interesting for sure! If ur squad with the baron gets too much heat he can always jump ship to another squad.

Well, If I didnt want any Veichles I wouldnt play Dark Eldar tbh, since I like winning...

But I think you need more defined units either way. More AT defined units that is. Without more dark lances you are going to get stomped each match. Without veichles I think you really need 3xTrueborns w/2xDark Lance. even with Reavers.

Han yes, Harlies would also be a good call. But then you loose the only place where you can buy some decent DL.

Malevolent-Storm wrote:

I'm eschewing WWPs because I am not sure I can get them far enough forward to be worth while, but in the right build I might bring them back in.

That's a common misconception, you don't need to get the WWP far forward, 12-18"+3"(for the marker) is just fine. It opens up options for warriors as troops as you can keep them in reserve and have them come in later (protecting them for the first few turns of the game). You can also used it to keep five man wrack squads alive. However the best thing about it is it extends the threat range of your blaster reavers in reserve, giving you a nice 31.5" radius bubble that can threaten your opponents armour in the middle of the board. This helps give you the ranged AT that you will lack without ravagers. Same for warriors, it gives them a 25.5" threat bubble in the middle of the board, and ensures they always get the alpha strike and don't give up first blood.

Here's an example of a no vehicle list I ran a few months ago, if your interested (with pictures):

BR16: The Black Buzzards VS SoB Mech - 1500pts

Although if I were to use it again I would probably run something like this:

HQ
Archon, venom blade, blaster, shadow field, WWP

ELITE
6 Grotesques, aberation, venom blade

TROOPS
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster

FAST ATTACK
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade

HEAVY SUPPORT
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon

Total: 1500

Notes: Keep all the warriors in reserve, start the talos on the table (optional keep one reaver squad in reaserve).

Hope that helps.

Thanks Mush!

Is the idea that the many small warrior squads will compensate for not having the pain tokens to start with?

I assume the Archon and grots started on the board b/c that's the only place I see for a WWP. The Taloses and reavers will draw most of the fire so the Archon and Grots will be able to get the WWP deployed?

Without Hellions though, you have no troops with any speed so you would need your WWP to be in a place that provides cover and also within range of enough objectives. Did you ever find that the lack of speedy troops was a serious problem?

Dan

Malevolent-Storm wrote:

Is the idea that the many small warrior squads will compensate for not having the pain tokens to start with?

The idea with this list is you want to go second. Deploy the talos and grotesques in cover and as centrally on you board as that will allow (you want them to be on the edge of your deployment zone so 12" in). You deploy one reaver squad out of harms way, and keep one in reserve. You survive their shooting and then advance forward deploy the portal while the talos give you covering fire with their splinter cannons. The idea is to bate your enemy to come in for the kill/secure midfield objectives because you have fantastic objective denial power: you went second and have reavers. However, if he pushes into the midfield to get your objectives he is vulnerable to warriors coming out of the portal with blasters ad rapid fire splinter, making it a dangerous prospect. Effectively you set up a kill zone in the middle of the board and force your opponent to move into it, bringing him into talos and blasters kill range. Also if he pushes forward the troops he leaves on his home objectives will get taken out piece by piece by the reavers as you effectively split his army and divide and conquer.

Also by going second your reserve units aka the warriors avoid a minimum of two turns of shooting without sacrificing any of theirs making them a lot more survivable not to mention they won't give up first blood.

Malevolent-Storm wrote:

Without Hellions though, you have no troops with any speed so you would need your WWP to be in a place that provides cover and also within range of enough objectives. Did you ever find that the lack of speedy troops was a serious problem?

Not really as I mentioned above reavers are such a fantastic denial unit that you force your opponent to come to you. You don't need to capture every objective just secure what you can and deny the rest.

You could tweak the list a little like below, get's you a liquifier on the grotesques and opens up the options for wracks so you can mix and match warriors and wracks till you get the right mix (as they are both 60pts per squad).

HQ
Heami Ancient, Power Axe, liquifier, WWP

ELITE
6 Grotesques, aberation, liquifier, venom blade

TROOPS
5 wracks, liquifier
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster
5 warriors, blaster

FAST ATTACK
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade

HEAVY SUPPORT
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon
Talos, Twin-linked liquifier, Twin-linked splinter cannon

Total: 1500

Hope that explains it a bit better.

Mush,

I re-read your BatRep (I think I read it a couple months ago) and studied it a bit. In it you and Shadows both noted your pronounced range of long range] AT. The lists you've modified to using here have more AT, but it is not that long range. A Russ or Thunderfire in the back corner could give you hell. Also, to get it, you gave up a point of toughness and FNP; those 5 warrior squads will be much more vulnerable to being wiped out or forced to check leadership. In your later games with this idea, did that ever become a problem like you thought it might?

I'm wondering if there is a way to stick a couple lanceborn squads in here to provide early game ranged AT and to allow a talos to go into reserve. To do that though, you'd almost have to lose a Talos. You can't afford to lose any troop units really. The only options left are the taloses, the grots, or the reavers. The grots need to be 4 strong to protect the portal barer and to keep them effective. Losing the reavers means you lose some AT to gain some AT - worse you lose your ability to pressure the enemy into your type of battle and gain a less tough unit to replace it.

I really appreciate the strategic discussion aspects of how your list works on a macro level - saturate the middle and make the enemy come to you. Moreso because your "middle" is somewhat flexible depending on the location of objectives and cover. It has me wondering what other strategies for foot-based Dark Eldar there may be. Obviously, you can't deploy objectives forward and then expect to move onto them; you are too slow. A foot DE list has the ability to field decent short to medium range AT, good AI, and fairly good assault. The toughest units to bring down are probably the taloses, the grots, and the reavers, but as your BatRep list amply demonstrates, one attribute it can bring to the table is that it includes almost all of our toughest units. Thus, as in your original BatRep, resiliency becomes the theme of your list.

Obviously, I haven't tried this out on the tabletop, but it seems to me that drawing the enemy onto your lines and into your fire has to be the objective of a foot based list because, if for no other reason, you don't have the mobility to bring the fight to them. If you plan to WWP up in the center, you need that survivability from all those wrack troops. On the other hand, if you are running warrior squads, I almost think you would want to form more of a castle or gunline further back in your DZ. (This will then be a problem if you end up playing objectives and the foe is able to place the balance of the objectives in his/her DZ.) If you gunline/castle, you need something to draw the enemy forward towards you. so you'd either place your objectives right in front of your gunline or you'll have to use a unit as bait. I've seen opponents focus overly on wyches and taloses - I wonder if either of them could be bait. The issue would be that both are feared as assault units so the foe might want to stand off and shoot instead of walking into the trap. Still, if it appeared that some of your units were advancing and making themselves vulnerable, your foe might go for them. You guys might be able to fall back to the line/castle. That unit would need to be tough - maybe the Grots? Do you think that might work strategically?

And there is always the ally road. You could bring in foot based Craftworld Eldar and use them to try to get some long range AT (and psychers), but it skews your point values all around.

(I'm also facing some issues based on what models I own: 60 warriors, 20 wyches, 12 incubi, 2 taloses, 2 haemi, 8 reavers, 12 hellions, 1 flyer, 3 venoms, 4 raiders, 1 ravager, 1 Baron, and 2 archons. I'm working on getting 4 grots at the moment and probably 10 or so wracks even though I really hate Finecast. For the purposes of this theoretical discussion however, I'm not worrying about being able to build the list yet. If I decide to run with it, this list will be a shopping list).

Thanks for all the food for thought by the way.

Dan

You pretty much have the concept behind the list spot on. I think for a footlst to work you need to be able to force your opponent to come to you.

The reavers do a good enough job at hunting down things like thunderfire cannons or russes (or any heavy support that likes to hang around in the backfield. And the Talos and grots are tough enough to sit happy in the middle. Dropping a talos is a bad idea as you need the T7 saturation in order to keep them around, and you need their combat ability and liquifiers in case your opponent does decide to advance. In the two games I had with the list's ranged AT wasn't a problem. In short if you keep them out of that area the idea is you are tough enough that it wins you the game.

The change to warriors was mainly for more ranged AT and AI, warriors are still pretty survivable in ruins/area terrain and as the squads are small you don't lose to much firepower if they go to ground, that combined with the fact that the list goes second and your opponent has 3-4 turns to shoot them up at best.

I don't think lanceborn would work, as you would have to start them on the board, and they would just be easy first blood compared to the rest of the army, and the list likes to go second making things even harder for the lanceborn. If you want some "ranged" AT a unit of 5 scourges with blasters deepstriking might do it. Otherwise you could always add some haywire scourges and swap the splinter cannons on the talos for haywire too, though I think that would make the list weaker.

The tricky part with the list is balancing the reserves to meet the 50% reserve rule, which is partly why it has three talos.

The hardest thing for this list to face is probably a manticore, they can be quite nasty, but they are nasty against most things.