The Gauntlet

I don't build lists to play against what may or ay not be at a given location. Any list I play has to be able to handle The Gauntlet.

Company Command Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Herald of Nurgle
7 Flamers
9 Flamers
9 Flamers
5 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers
Infantry Squad, Autocannon
Infantry Squad, Autocannon
Special Weapons Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera (taken from Infantry Squad turn 1)
Special Weapons Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera (taken from Infantry Squad turn 1)
Platoon Command Squad, 3 Plasma Guns, Chimera
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Screamers

---

Necron Overlord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs
Big Mek, Kustom Forcefield
30 Shoota Boyz
5 Necron Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe
5 Necron Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe
5 Necron Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe
5 Necron Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe
6 Canoptek Wraiths, 1 with Whip Coils
6 Canoptek Wraiths, 1 with Whip Coils
Annihilation Barge, extra Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge, extra Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge, extra Tesla Cannon

---

Company Command Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, 3 Servo Skulls
5 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Plasma Guns, Chimera
Platoon Command Squad, 3 Flamers, Chimera
Infantry Platoon, Krak Grenades, Sergeant with Power Axe
Infantry Platoon, Sergeant with Power Axe
Infantry Platoon, Sergeant with Power Axe
Infantry Platoon, Sergeant with Power Axe
Infantry Platoon, Sergeant with Power Axe
(all combined into one squad of 50)
10 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 2 Psycannons, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
10 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 2 Psycannons, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
10 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 2 Psycannons, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Vendetta
Dreadnought, 2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought, 2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Anything that can handle all 3 of these lists shouldn't have much more difficulty playing anything else. Every threat possible* in 6th edition is presented somewhere in The Gauntlet, ergo, worst case scenario somebody has an unbalanced list and it's just a matter of adapting on the fly to mitigate the excess and strike at their big, glowing weak spot, exaggerated by a lack of list balance.

(*I may consider adding a 4th list using Blood Angels and Dark Angels, to assess how well a list I make handles cover, psychic powers, bikes, and other things once I've finished evaluating Codex: Dark Angels.)

In the meantime, I'm curious what Dark Eldar lists you think would be able to beat The Gauntlet, and how you'd deploy/move/handle various missions. I encourage you all to try and find people with the models to actually play this out or proxy, as I do.

Those 3 lists are nasty! Colour me impressed!

For me, the 3rd is the easiest to handle as I am a big supporter of night shields these days and once the dreads are gone, the list lacks real bite past 18"

I am torn with the other 2 lists. On one hand the scythes are nasty and the stormteks are worse but on the other, the daemons will ruin your da on the drop...

Do you have a 1500point version of the gauntlet? I'd gladly do a series of reports on running the gauntlet if you do.

Massaen, I don't really know what you mean about it lacking bite, it's easily the most dakka-intensive of the three, read it again.

Once the Strike Squads reach the middle of the board, there's really nowhere you can go to escape even 18" range on the Psycannons, and that many Storm Bolters will usually glance Raiders to death. The Multilasers and Heavy Bolters are 36" (so 30") range anyway, so the Night Shields end up being wasted points.

Also why are you so intent on keeping the Raiders alive? They are really easy to kill and don't even claim/deny objectives anymore. I would rather take more infantry than protect the Raiders.

Mushkilla, I don't, sorry. I've been playing at 1850 because most nearby events do, which peer pressures my friends and everyone else I know and so it's not just about conforming to what events are calling for but what I'm actually going to be playing at; that's how I came up with this, to playtest list ideas.

As a result I'm not really used to 1500 points and I'd have to think about it a bit more - 1750-2000 is ideal because you aren't forced to choose between running a full complement of Troops and taking the stuff that makes your army unique. Most Space Marine books don't have this issue at 1500, other armies do, but nobody really does at 1750-2000 thanks to Allies, it's weird.

Oh, and FYI this is mostly what I ran my Pan-Eldar Alliance Jetbikes list against to hone it. Hopefully, you can see now why I said what I did about how it plays - in order to be satisfied with it I had to be confident that it could win against these 3 often enough.

What sort of list would you run then? Can you give an example?

My usual list could handle 2 of the 3.
I would love to see a list that can handle all three, I suspect it includes a lot of allies, and will admit my initial thoughts for lists that could deal with all 3 do not have DE in them. As an interesting side note, I actually do not think any of the three lists in the gauntlet could deal with the gauntlet (besides maybe the Necrons, though it's an interesting toss between them and the Knights - I don't see the daemons dealing with the Crons in any way at all though) - the usual r/p/s nature of 40k lists at work, I suppose.

The 3rd one should't be that hard these days (hull points made psyflemen a lot less threathening). Aside from the big guardsmen blob, it's a pretty typical GK list, and while GK are nasty, we do have the tools to deal with them. Removing the big blob is hard, but it's a blob of guardsmen so they're not going to do much but sit on an objective.

For the 2nd list, It's Necron flyer spam, and that's annoyign against any army. Going to be an uphill battle, as nobody really has enough anti air to effectively deal with the flying croisant fleet. I'm bit confused about where the Necron Lord goes, tho. He can't join the Ork blob (since they're not battle brothers), he'd slow the wraiths down, and throwing him into one of them 5 man MSU squads would seem like a waste. Personally I'd have replaced him with a Destroyer Lord to run witht he wraiths.

The 1st I think we have better chanse than many other army, but it won't be easy. That list has tons of extremely dangerous short range units (screamers, flamers, meltaguns), but somewhat more limited long range firepower, so we'd have to use our speed to stay the hell away from it while firing lances at chimeras and splinter fire at screamers. That list has oen weakeness in that it completely lacks anti-air (screamers and flamers in particular are completely useless against flyers), which means voidravens might come in handy.

What are the conditions of the gauntlet? I would assume they are most challenging played as follows:

List 1
-DE going second (daemons like to go second, however the guard element probably means they should go first).
-Crusade.
-No night fight on first turn.
-Dawn of War Deployment.
-No warlord traits.
-No FNP on the drug roll.

List 2
-DE going first (scythe spam likes going second).
-Crusade.
-No night fight on first turn.
-Dawn of War Deployment.
-No warlord traits.
-No FNP on the drug roll.

List 3
-DE going second.
-Crusade.
-No night fight on first turn.
-Dawn of War Deployment.
-No warlord traits.
-No FNP on the drug roll.

Is that about right?

Agahnim wrote:

Anything that can handle all 3 of these lists shouldn't have much more difficulty playing anything else. Every threat possible* in 6th edition is presented somewhere in The Gauntlet, ergo, worst case scenario somebody has an unbalanced list and it's just a matter of adapting on the fly to mitigate the excess and strike at their big, glowing weak spot, exaggerated by a lack of list balance.

(*I may consider adding a 4th list using Blood Angels and Dark Angels, to assess how well a list I make handles cover, psychic powers, bikes, and other things once I've finished evaluating Codex: Dark Angels.)

I can't really comment on the lists and what I'd do to beat them, I lack the knowledge, but am curious as to why there's no list there that includes high AVs - do you not think they're a threat? Or do you not come across them very often?

Nomic wrote:

The 1st I think we have better chanse than many other army, but it won't be easy.

See, for my money that's the hardest list - though I'll admit it's because of what I play. But glance spam flamers are annoying to my lists.

Thor665 wrote:

My usual list could handle 2 of the 3.

If I may, what is your usual list?

I don't play against anyone that really runs allies, so I'm not likely to play against any of these lists any time soon, however, I would like to see what other DE lists could take these. when I get a little more time, I'll post an 1850 list for c/c vs these lists.

Thor665 wrote:

My usual list could handle 2 of the 3.

So, I don't see it. Nor do I see any strategic or tactical comments for dealing with stuff like this in general. I was hoping to avoid having a bunch of "let's toot our own horns" and instead focus on stuff one is likely to run against a difficult opponent, perhaps specifically against the Gauntlet.

Since someone asked, this is what I came up with: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t5422-pacifist-jetbikes#59628

No list can beat anything 100% of the time, unless "anything" is something truly terrible and non-functional. That's the list and tactics I've had the most success with.

I'm not expecting anyone to have a list that beats all of these, but have one that can beat all of these. And more importantly how: lists don't win games, well-played lists win games. The Gauntlet is only a threat because I know how and why the constituent armies are so strong, and can credibly play them and know others who can fight me with them. It doesn't matter if someone in your LGS runs something similar, if they're a poor enough player your themed WWP Mandrake and Wych Cult + Tau captives will annihilate them.

Agahnim wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

My usual list could handle 2 of the 3.

So, I don't see it. Nor do I see any strategic or tactical comments for dealing with stuff like this in general.

Well...your specific question was 'what list do you have that can beat the gauntlet' and what I'm saying above is clearly 'I don't think my list can' so I'm not sure why that puts you off. Then again, I'll admit I have doubts about your list beating the gauntlet for the same reason I have doubts about my list so maybe I'm just being pessimistic in how I'm looking at the lists and just presume anyone playing them will know as much about DE as I do and play accordingly to dismantle my army.

Also, possibly I'm reading the 'beats all' and 'can beat all' comment wrong and applying too much emphasis to the percentages I consider appropriate for what constitutes a functional chance to win.

For my own sanity in considering this - do you consider all mission types for each army matchup?
Also, do you have a rough in mind percentage win ratio that is 'acceptable' for the win rate?

Ok, guess its time for me to jump into this conversation and give my two cents

List 1: Personally I love it. Its daemons at its finest, with its weakness of having terrible troops overcome. Guard fill daemons weakness nicely with the ability to bring several cheap, effective troops with survivability (in chimeras ofc). Although its weird to see you not run good ol Super Chicken Fateweaver with the list, as I feel that its almost needed for daemons to be decent with the flamer/screamer build. Also no other flying MCs is interesting, as the rules change were a great boon change to daemons in general. OVerall though I think a decent Daemons player can do well with this list.

That being said, I feel DE have a really good chance against this list. Flamers/Screamers lose alot of their effectiveness without the King of Fowls in tow, and are basically MEQ with worse saves. Couple that with how little AV or MCs you have, and that means that your 4 chimeras should die to our hail of darklight T1 while your daemons chill in the warp. Add in some basic anti-deepstrike tatics like castling in the corner and forcing them to make those risky deepstrikes, and refusing flank once daemons hit, a competent DE player should be able to do pretty well against this list.

List 2: CronAir w/ Orks as the anchor. Very interesting list. Using CronAir's deadly firepower and then following it up by pressure applied by the Boyz, and counterassault/tarpit in the form of wraiths. I also like how the list covers CronAir's weakness of having such limited effective board coverage, because even if they get behind the planes, they still have 31 orks and 12 wraith to deal with, both of which are no easy task. My one suggestion is maybe dropping a anahilation barge for some Lootas, just for the simple fact is the damage potential is greater imho with Lootas, and they have longer range, but that is just semantics at this point of the list. Also I think the list lacks a true assault unit, but if you have too do a ton of damage quick, the wraiths double-teaming would do the trick, and lets not forget the damage potential of 30 Boyz on the charge!!! Personally I think you should build towards this list instead of your CronAir/GK list

As for DE, I think this one is a close toss up. We have the tools to deal with the mass ork blob and wraiths. Also again with only 3 tanks on the field, T1 Dark Lances would have a field day. Giving that CronAir wants T2, this also gives the DE player some more time to set up and severly damage your ground forces. As with the game we played, Nightshields would play a very important role in this matchup, as your range is quite short with everything except the flyers. T2 when your flyers rolls in is where things get alittle bit messy, and basically comes down to dice and manuevering at that point. If DE has done enough damage to your anchor by bottom of T1, he can easily get behind your flyers and minimalize their damage output, they should win. Just dont play like me and lose 5 vehicles to 2 planes Overall though this comes down to player skill, dice rolls, and alittle bit of luck.

List 3: Ah now this is something DE should truely be scared of. A 5th edition list if I ever saw one. Giant blob squad (check), MEQ Psybacks (check), Vendetta (check), Psyflemen (double check). This list has all the tools and then some to pull down even the hardiest DE list. Sadly probably the scariest thing is the blobsquad, as those hidden flamers means thye can charge to be charged, and still do damage (oh and power axes are stupidly good on guard sargies) Overall a general nightmare to most armies out there.

Now this is a tough list, let alone for DE. you have more vehicles this time, and 2 that glare out as "MUST KILLS" in the form of the psyflemen, so those chimeras/Psybacks should be able to get where you want to go, and provide some nice down range fire. That blob squad is scary too, and it basically a ticking timebomb waiting to hit something. Also with the strike squads you cover your flanks nicely, meaning DE would have to overload one side to even think about avoiding that blob squad. Add in the vendetta ofc and that gives the DE player another dimension of the game to worry about as well... A tough battle for sure. The list isnt unbeatable, but would give any DE list a run for its money. Luck and skill would have to be on this side.

Overall I like your lists. they are very diverse and cover alot of your most likely encountered problems out there. Sadly no eldar/tau runaway shennanigans made the list, but hopefully your DA/BA list would cover that if you decide to add it. I think there are plenty of DE lists that CAN beat all 3 lists... but itll have to come down to dice rolls and players more so than lists.

As a daemon player I have to agree with SR. No fateweaver is odd, he makes screamer so much better. Also I am perplexed as to why you are running squads of 9 flamers it's just not an effective set up for them, it's overkill if ever I saw it, 6 is more than enough.

I'm not sure Fateweaver would really be worth it in Screamer/Flamer-spam list. The important thing about that list is that you spam Screamers/Flamers, and Fateweaver is 333 points spent on things that are not Screamers/Flamers. Yes, rerolls to all units within 6'' is very nice, but since one of the main advantages of the list is that you're very mobile, having everything bunched up and follow Fateweaver around seems a bit of a waste (Screamers in particular probably won't be inside the reroll bubble, as the first thign they'll do is turboboost to the enemy and baldewave some exposed units while getting in a position to charge the next turn). Besides, a rerollable 5++ is about as good as a 4++, which still isn't that impressive (compared to things like Bloodcrushers and Fateweaver himsels, who have 3+ saves).

Nomic wrote:

I'm not sure Fateweaver would really be worth it in Screamer/Flamer-spam list. The important thing about that list is that you spam Screamers/Flamers, and Fateweaver is 333 points spent on things that are not Screamers/Flamers. Yes, rerolls to all units within 6'' is very nice, but since one of the main advantages of the list is that you're very mobile, having everything bunched up and follow Fateweaver around seems a bit of a waste (Screamers in particular probably won't be inside the reroll bubble, as the first thign they'll do is turboboost to the enemy and baldewave some exposed units while getting in a position to charge the next turn). Besides, a rerollable 5++ is about as good as a 4++, which still isn't that impressive (compared to things like Bloodcrushers and Fateweaver himsels, who have 3+ saves).

The problem is all your points are wrong:

Point A: You need more screamers/flamers in a spam list"

False- I know this sounds weird, but the point of the list isnt spam as many flamers and screamers as you can, the point is getting the most out of these two units. Take flamers for example, sure, run 9. but when you land you are grouped up, and flame templates cant touch your own models. So after the first say... 5 or so, your paying for 4 more flamers to get 1 more template in T1. That is a gross misuse of points.

The same goes with screamers. You dont need 3x units of screamers to be effective, as the lower numbers means its easier to remove the unit from the map. runing two units of 9 however puts you in a better position, and a bigger squad means more wounds, and more footprint, which is great for Fateweaver

Point B: Fateweaver is immobile causing you to bunch up around him

False- First off Fateweaver is a Flying MC, which means when he comes down, not only can he turbo to reach the screamers, the screamers can also come to him. Also giving his flying MC status, he can keep up with screamers, even with them turbobosting. Secondly they dont have to bunch up around him, as you only need 1 screamer in range to get the re-roll saves.

Point C: 5++ re-rollable is about as good as their turboboost save:

False- for the simple fact that you are forgetting that they also can re-roll their coversave as well with Fateweaver. Also add that the point of screamers is to get them into combat and chew through things, and in combat, they only have a 5++. Screamers are at their base are power weapon wielding MEQ with a lower armor save. A high volume of wounds is how you defeat them. Giving them the re-rolls basically turns them into a harder hitting seer council, and even as DE players we should know how well seer councils can hold up to fire.

Not to mention fateweaver draws a huge amount of fire away from the rest of the army. He's not an easy warlord victory point to get either, unlike the herald of nurgle which doesn't bring anything to the army and isn't exactly hard to hunt down. Fateweaver on the other hand is not only is a great damage sponge that makes everything else more survivable but also brings: bolt, breath, gaze and vector strike on a mobile and survivable platform.

My two pain tokens on Fatey: take him.

I'll try my hand at some shadowboxing. Here's what I have been playing recently for pickup games at the FLGS (Dream Wizards in Rockville, for the benefit of the Marylanders!). If I go to a GW-aligned tournament, I have to take something similar to this because my other army has too much proxy.

Duke Sliscus
20 Warriors, 2 SC
5 Wyches, HWG + Venom, 2 SC
5 Wyches, HWG + Venom, 2 SC
5 Wyches, HWG + Venom, 2 SC
5 Wyches, HWG + Venom, 2 SC
Ravager, 3 Dissie
Ravager, 3 Dissie
Razorwing, 2 Dissie, FF

Eldrad Ulthuan
3 Guardian Jetbikes
3 Guardian Jetbikes
4 Fire Dragons+Exarch, CS, TH
2 War Walkers, 4 Shurri
Aegis Line, Quad-Gun

No Lances! I have gone almost all-in on anti-infantry here, relying on the Eldar Autocannon to take care of AV 12 threats and down, with some outflanking S6 to supplement. The Wyches are a concession to the weakness to AV 13+, and in my opinion handle it better than Warriors with Blasters. The Warrior blob is quite effective once you inject some psychic into it, and Eldrad is the best. HQ is Duke for his two buffs, though a naked Blaster Archon wouldn't be terrible.

Time to run the Gauntlet! An important caveat: without sufficient line of sight blocking terrain, all three of these matches get very depressing very fast, so I am assuming...NOVA-style terrain?

VS. DAEMON GUARD

Not a bad matchup. My infantry is largely meched up, and what isn't can get 4++ and a Pain Token with ease. I would probably castle up my Dragons in one corner and spread out my humble blob and skimmers around them. Skimmers spread out to avoid being multi-charged. No Vendetta and no Fatey is nice to see, but the prescence of the special weapons make those Guard a threat- I would try ignore them and not engage until the Daemons are controlled. No outflanking, for example. As a Daemon player on the other side this would look rough, and I would try to tie up the Warriors ASAP.

VS NECRON ORKS

Eff me, Triple Annihilation Barge! The Exarch and the Ravagers do a collective facepalm. No Imotekh, Khaine be praised, which means I can afford to take my time, so I may do just that: deploy very conservatively, keep the Gun out of easy sniping by the Barges, and lay in wait for the Scythes. Try and whittle down the Wraiths as best I can (if he realizes what I'm up to, he may just Deep Strike them). Once the Orks and Wraiths are away from the Barges, I can attempt (!) to run my Wych Venoms past the goon line and aim for some Haywiring and backfield scoring. Guardian Jetbikes will try to steal the match with lategame grabs. If I was feeling ballsy I can roll on Telepathy on Eldrad to try and pick up Mental Fortitude. I can then pretend to be Imperial Guard- go to ground behind the Aegis, then gain Fearless in order to stand back up and shoot. This will be a game of lucky hits on vehicles, which is a game I don't like to play, hence my current Lance-less state. Would 2-3 Lance Ravagers take down the Barges?

VS GREY GUARD

It occurs to me that Grey Guard could also refer to Space Wolves+Guard...moving on. This is also one of those matches where 3 Lance Ravagers seem necessary...but which when I play always seems to turn out "Ravagers plink against AV 12+cover save, then get wrecked by hellish amount of shots". My blob cannot beat their blob, I know this from experience, so I may just leave them in reserve and let Eldrad protect his Aspect friend. Give your blob Flamers, it's 25 points of "You really don't want to charge this"! In any case, that unit is why I take my Razorwing, though it would be quite happy to catch a Strike Squad out in the open. War Walkers go for those rear armor shots on their Walkers by Outflanking. My ultimate goal might be like the last one: draw them forward, then dash behind them and pick on their back lines. A smart opponent will just not rise to the challenge and keep taking potshots with his 48" guns while bristling with unmatched short-range firepower to murder anyone who gets close.

So there you go. My army cannot effectively alpha-strike, but it does very well whittling down enemies as they approach and decently against those that drop in your face. I can fight bikes, jump infantry, beasts, and other assault threats due to my particular brand of AI, but I suck at de-meching. In my opinion, Dark Eldar suck at de-meching, but an Exarch+Gun can take out one AV 12 threat a turn. The fact that the gun can be shot out from under be will always be problematic no matter how much Eldrad tries. The Ravagers are actually spectacular at taking out blobs bit by bit through Focus Fire, though this may change if Azrael becomes the new hotness. If this Gauntlet represents the best 40K has to offer, then I am not prepared- I simply need more armor-piercing guns in order to get reliable results. My love-hate relationship with Lances and Blasters will not win me any tournaments, I simply need to test enough that I find out how many I can fit without sacrificing the benefits that all of this AI gives me.

My first run through the Gauntlet fails. Odds are I go 1-2, with one favorable matchup and two unfavorable matchups. Slight alterations to the lists would make them all unfavorable. Can my army comp be altered easilt to make some matchups more favorable, or do I go back to the drawing board?

In a perfect world, there would be many compositions which have close to 50% matchups to each other, the environment would change every few months, but still keep about that balance. If you believe Starcraft or Legacy players, at least. But 40K is not that, so I am content to run an army that has 60-40's against the popular stuff and 40-60s against the unpopular stuff. Your mileage may vary.

Id replace that middle list to the current meta list everyones using up north. It goes a bit like this....

2 Destroyer lords
18 wraiths
3 night scythes
15 necrons
10 immortals
3 annialation barges

there was about 7 of that exact list at the caledonian uprising. And yes it won it.

The daemon list everyone seems to be taking is

tzeentch herald x 2
3 units of max screamers
3 units of 6 flamers
Plague bearers
1 unit of horrors

That guard/greyknight hybrid would generally have Coteaz in it and dreadknights instead of dreadnaughts and yes no razorbacks.