So, `just` what is Kheradruakh up to?

I'm an old fan of Quantum physics, have to love those who simply refuse to obey the Law...

I can think of all sorts of mandrake fun, have to use them in future fic...(even though the wyches are vying for attention...plenty of room for a fight there)

What is Mr `I've got an unspellable name` up to? its not like there aren't plenty of pathetic lonely skull collectors in our Beloved city, is there?

Or webway gates?

Hm. Well, one 40k fanfic I've been reading (and quite like, at that), based around progressing the setting (though in a much better written and more interesting version than Rise of the Tau) reveals it later on.

Spoiler:

Links if anyone's interested:
50k part
60k part 1
60k part 2
As a note, it is a bit focused on humanity, but less so than the standard 40k fluff. Not sure I care much for the DE portrayal, though.

Yes, That's a very good (If awesomely chock full of excruciating detail) fic. its an interesting theory, isn't it?

And I think quite credible.

I'm studying Socrates at the moment and was thinking about `Driven` individuals -something I was arguing over with my New Age `friends` regarding Shamanism, They just don't understand about the spiritual life, something that can wreck your health, your sanity, your home life, your morals and possibly kill you. The Other world is a terrifying place and no remotely normal person goes there, its a calling and that's that.

Theres lots of implications this for 40K (and quantum physics, a field which is just MAD)...Certainly The likes of the Lord Hellion and Lady Malys belong in the world of the Other. (Even by DE standards, a society of Machine Elves (And I wont tell you where that term comes from!) who live in a decidedly Other City. (And begone with Newtonian physics!)

Khera is by his very physique an Other (And he comes from the branch of the Eldar family that no one dares speak of. The mandrakes are so far Other they are their own worse nightmare.)

However I have no fic inspiration.

Maybe its just all squick....

The problem is we dont know the origins of the Mandrakes. Some say they are the spawn of daemons and Eldar, others say they are something else all together (maybe an enity of the webway or outside in another dimension). So to try and figure out what the Decap is doing, you first need to know their background, whcih we dont have.

He could be opening a portal for daemons or whatever Mandrakes come from, or he could just simply like skulls... who knows...

Tengu wrote:

I'm an old fan of Quantum physics, have to love those who simply refuse to obey the Law...

Eldar can still end and create worlds at will. If the dark eldar wanted to form an eldar emprire again, they could. If somebody was good enough to unite all eldar, they would be unstoppable, making nids and necrons look like nothing.
Eldar tech is magic for humans. Q physics are not perfect, nor are they 100% accurate, nor are they complete theories. Besides, you would have to be a universitarian with some basic degrees to even start understanding some of the Q physics we have today.



There is little fluff on mandrakes, but there is enough to make real conclusions:

Are they deamons? Short answer No.
i'll give you my motivations:
Most deamons worhsip one of the main 4 gods, these guys clearly don't. Their flames, could suggest Tzeentch, but it's not. Again, they would worhsip him to begin with. The flamed they use are not tzeentch, pretty sure of it. You've got the flamers who spit out flames, but in short, it's not the same fire at all. The invulnerable save does sound deamon like, but it could be anything else, invuln saves are quite common in 40k, all for different reasons.
The last and most important argument why they are not deamons is the fact that they can roam Commoragh without causing any major problems. Deamons always try to open up portals for their buddies to come out. Mandrakes come from another dimension, I believe they still can go through it, it's the best way to explain their movements using shadows.
We know that they arrived from another dimension, but it's clearly not the warp, again, if they where deamons, they would have opened up a rift for other deamons to come through.

One simple fact you can't ignore, when some creature is of deamonic origin, it's stated clearly, think about the avatar, the Khymera.
if they were daemons, it would simply be mentioned in the fluff, the fact that they aren't seems to be important.

They are still clearly dark eldar. The power from pain confirms it, only real dark eldar can use it, nobody else. Beneath the dark skin and horrifying appearance, they are still dark eldar.

There is a connection between them and the heamonculi.
Their weapons, though may be a coincidence, look a lot like coven weapons. Then you've got the champion, Kheradruakh. 4 arms, Pain token from the start. The other link is the fact that Heamonculi are the scientists of the dark eldar world. They could have been exploring some alternate universes and made some discoveries changing their bodies forever. The webway itself is another dimension, they could have stumbled on another dimension while working on such tech. There are 3 dimensions in 40k, our reality, the warp, the webway. I'm pretty sure there are more, the dimension the mandrakes come from is one of those unknown ones.
The runes do point towards some dark ritual, may be heamonculus or some other cult, runes open up portals, could be to the warp, but doesn't have to be, could be to a completely new dimension.

The fact they come out of shadows is kind of like webway travel, they can travel between dimensions somehow, once they're back, they can't get back rightaway. Again if they were deamons, their buddies would use this to infest Commoragh. Remember that deamons can't stay in our reality forever, as far as we know no such thing applies to mandrakes. They are clearly something else.
Again the save description always reveals whether they are deamons or not.

One theory i've got myself, the dimension they come from is none other than the webway itself. The webway is more mysterious than what you may think. You've got things living in there, very strange creatures. One reason why I make this conclusion: the power from pain.
This power was born the day Slaanesh was born, don't think many actualyl realise this. Something happened within the webway that changed the eldar living in it, it still applies to all eldar entering the webway, stay there too long and you will start suffereing from it.
As you may know a dark eldar may go eldar and backwards. Soulgems do play a crucial role in this equation.
The flames mandrakes can use seem to be an advanced weapon coming from power from pain, same goes for their appearance.
It was when Slaanesh was born that mandrakes were also born, if the power form pain was born only then. Their bodies physiology are clearly linked to this power from pain.
Their body changes could be explain either by science or by spending too much time in some dimension (or like I said, some hidden space within the webway itself)

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He could be opening a portal for daemons or whatever Mandrakes come from, or he could just simply like skulls... who knows...

Doubt it's deamons, they would have opened a portal a long time ago. It isn't especially hard to open up a portal to infest a world.

One thing I'm pretty sure, yeah, something is supposed to come out of that portal and it may prove to be worse than daemons, the ones who created the mandrakes...their masters.

A point probably nobody ever thinks about:
Mandrakes don't have popolation limitations, there seem to be a lot of them. They are commonly used by Kabals and they don't seem to go extinct. There goes the theory that all mandrakes were created at some exact point. Not sure how, but evne mandrakes reproduce. No way to know whether it's dark eldar who can be turned or they reproduce amongst themselves, iIm more inclined to think the first.
The power from pain affects all differently. Some can handle it and remain mostly themselves, these are the Kabal members.
Cult members remain fighters their entire lives, the power from pain they gain seems natural, since they spend most of their time fighting, it's natural for them to recieve a constant dose.
Coven units are the most peculiar. At one point, the pain isn't enough, to the point where a dark eldar wants to inflict pain on himself. he just doesn't get the same from pain he used to gain.
Mandrakes could prove to be the fourth options, you enbrace the power from pain complmetely, to the point where it changes your body entirely. Maybe there is some kind of ritual invoving those runes you have to put on your body, they seem to applifly the power from paint to the point where you can even shoot fire. On the models, the flames have the same color as the runes, meaning they are connected. The runes seem to applify the power from pain, but body changes seems to be secondary consequences, as well as the whole shadow travelling. BTW do deamons travel using shadows? I don't think so.


I don't think GW has exploited the multidimensional universe enough so far. Another army coming from another dimension, besides deamons would be nice. some very high tech race who uses interdimension travel like eldar use webway travel. Or perhaps something seemingly primitive like deamons, but something else entirely, something far worse....they are called mandrakes.

two problems with your theory Khain mor, 1st not all daemons worship one of the 4 gods (see furies) Also according to GW, Mandrakes are daemons (check the GK FAQ to see what is considered a daemon for their special rules)

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Also according to GW, Mandrakes are daemons (check the GK FAQ to see what is considered a daemon for their special rules)

I think it's fair to chalk this up to another Matt Ward codex getting a nonsensical buff, rather than Mandrakes actually being daemons. After all, Mandrakes haven't been given the Daemon special rule (or simply Fear to bring them in line).

But are Craftworld Avatars Demons? They are also classed as such.

(I wouldn't go saying stuff like that on a craftworld, if I was you...)

My Theory is `Drakes are Eldar adapted to life in the Webway, Possibly from some catastrophe in the Fall. We know that Eldar cannot evolve, (yet we see several ways of adapting to different situations.) possibly it was the Old ones creating a race of Webway workers?

Are there many `Drakes? Khain mor? We never seem to see many of them, they only have one sub realm, and I doubt they reproduce fast.

(If its like mandragora folklore `Drake reproduction is mostly artificial and quite frankly horrific.)

I suspect `Drakes are mostly loose in the webway, they have to be tough, cause there are all sorts of nasties there, (they are stronger and fiercer than most DES, I suspect their dark skin is a protective adaptation, and the tattoos sigils of demonic warding. In the Rogue trader era we were told Inquisitorial Demonhunters got a new tattoo every time they defeated a foe; perhaps `Drakes are the same.)

They probably have some sort of agreement with the likes of the Harlies; `destroy nasty things, keep an eye on damaged areas of the webway` thing. In return they get protection from people who might harm them, (craftworld or Exodite fanatics, we must remember there are Inquisitors in the webway too, which means GREY KNIGHTS, who definitely do regard `drakes as demons...)

Though `Drakes may prey on a ship in transit they mostly keep the webway a safe place to travel (we know its not; but Eldar seem blasé about it) Its in their interests after all.

Aerlindrach is probably their home polis. A safe, probably neutral ground. (If `Drakes are primitives as many suspect, they are probably territorial) possibly the place they bear and rear their `drakelets. (dealing with a multidiemensional baby must be...challenging...)

That is probably the theory I would most likely accept.
Mandrakes are just some kind of... mutated/evolved Dark Eldar who like to live in the webway and shadows.
Working together with Harlequins is a good idea too, if they would want someone to help them guard the Black Library, or webway in general, mandrakes would appear the best, if not the obvious choice.

One thing though, is that I dont think Mandrakes are primitives! They are Dark Eldar, and so they consider themselves above most others, they are hubris, and while they may be poor and not have fancy houses like other DEldar, they have dignity!
I would also think that they would be even more connected to each other than ordinary DEldar, and they would even go as far as caring for other mandrakes. This is maybe because I believe they are quite few in number.

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or he could just simply like skulls.

This! I so hope it's this! He get depressed that nobody takes him outside and so he gets some skulls to lighten up the place.

Has anybody considered Ynnead, though? I know that this is a being considered primarily by the Craftworlders, but it is a god that shall come from death. Kheradruakh takes skulls, is a living shadow, freezes souls with his touch and all of the other normal Mandrake things. They have a lot of deathly qualitites and are feared even by the DE. What do DE fear? True Death.

Perhaps he is trying to do something related to Ynnead. (Speculation I've come up with in the last couple of minutes).

Erebus wrote:

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Also according to GW, Mandrakes are daemons (check the GK FAQ to see what is considered a daemon for their special rules)

I think it's fair to chalk this up to another Matt Ward codex getting a nonsensical buff, rather than Mandrakes actually being daemons. After all, Mandrakes haven't been given the Daemon special rule (or simply Fear to bring them in line).

Technically they do have a 5+ Invul... so yah... Atleast they dont have demonic instability

Also the Avatar is a daemon, even though the CWE would like to not thing so. Anything from the warp or made up from warp energy is a daemon, regardless of where it comes from because that is all a daemon actually is, just warp energy made manifest.

Andy Chambers mentioned Ynnead, didn't he?

Anyhow we will find out in the third book of the trilogy....

There's a bit more lore in the short Story "Belathonis and the Shadow King" by Andy Chambers.

It's a good read, without revealing too much it appears that the Mandrakes are the result of a realm of Commorragh falling to shadow.

Even the Mandrakes Fear Kheradruakh...

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Andy Chambers mentioned Ynnead, didn't he?

Anyhow we will find out in the third book of the trilogy....

I have no idea, unfortunately. I have no interest in reading Path of the Incubus or the book that will follow after I had to sigh my way through Path of the Renegade.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Erebus wrote:

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Also according to GW, Mandrakes are daemons (check the GK FAQ to see what is considered a daemon for their special rules)

I think it's fair to chalk this up to another Matt Ward codex getting a nonsensical buff, rather than Mandrakes actually being daemons. After all, Mandrakes haven't been given the Daemon special rule (or simply Fear to bring them in line).

Technically they do have a 5+ Invul... so yah... Atleast they dont have demonic instability

Also the Avatar is a daemon, even though the CWE would like to not thing so. Anything from the warp or made up from warp energy is a daemon, regardless of where it comes from because that is all a daemon actually is, just warp energy made manifest.

GW is very simple about this, if they're deamons it's mentioned in the codex clearly FAQ is the same, The description has no mention of deamon. it would make sence if they did the same about the avatar, but they don't, they clearly say without any doubt, he is a deamon.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule, however again fluff doesn't say directly they're deamons, it's a hidden thing. My guess is that they're something else, why else refuse to tell the whole truth?

Cavash wrote:

Has anybody considered Ynnead, though? I know that this is a being considered primarily by the Craftworlders, but it is a god that shall come from death. Kheradruakh takes skulls, is a living shadow, freezes souls with his touch and all of the other normal Mandrake things. They have a lot of deathly qualitites and are feared even by the DE. What do DE fear? True Death.

Perhaps he is trying to do something related to Ynnead. (Speculation I've come up with in the last couple of minutes).

This is really good. I'm very willing to accept this idea. Deamons are somewhat connected to the eldar gods I hate to admit it, but the Khaine avatar is a deamon, how come, did he get tainted by chaos? Was Khaine a warp entity from the start? Who knows?
Forgetting this, Ynnead may have absolutely no connect to deamons at all.
It makes a good deal of sence. Ynnead is the god of death, brining his skulls seems apporiate. From he fluff, it's almost like he's gathering energy, nobody has a clue for what, to open a portal or whatever he's planning.
Ynnead is said to be born once all eldar are dead.
If you look at what happened during the Fall, this may be exagerated however, not all eldar were doing nasty business, only a portion of them. it may just turn out, a lot of eldar have to die for Ynnead to be born and who know where he might be born, in the warp itself, to go slain Slaanesh immediately? or maybe he'll be born in Commoragh in the lair of Kheradruahk?

Mandrakes being Ynneads pets, I can see that. Maybe Khera just want to summon somekind of an avatar of Ynnead, like the deamon gods, who can't be summoned into our reality, they send their greater deamons instead.

Khain mor wrote:

This is really good. I'm very willing to accept this idea. Deamons are somewhat connected to the eldar gods I hate to admit it, but the Khaine avatar is a deamon, how come, did he get tainted by chaos? Was Khaine a warp entity from the start? Who knows?

Actually we do know. Khaine has in several fluff sources been shown to be a warp entity. Heck the point of the Warp is if you believe in something hard enough, it appears. Now the origins of Khaine are what is the question. Personally I feel all the Eldar gods were old ones at one point, but with the Eldar worshiping them as gods, they got created in the warp. Its the same way that The Laughing God can interact with others, even appearing infront of them (Lady M anyone???)

Ok, another thought.

Who do we know who also collects skulls and is the mortal enemy of Slannesh??

what if Kheradruahk is Ynnead just is a sort of larval form? im not 100% on the fluff but he collects skulls from all the different races right. maybe pieces of Ynnead exist in certain beings and the only way to tell if that being has a piece is to examine the skull.

I like to think the Mandrakes are demonically infested.  As someone who read the book of chaos cover to cover, I can tell you that chaos takes many forms, many of which don't make sense or contradict themselves. The rules for deamons can change.  They may be deamon and Dark Eldar at the same time, in the same way that Obliterators are Astartes, deamon, and machine at the same time.

The evidence points to deamon; they have an invulnerable, they shoot fire from their palms, and they are classified as deamons (that may not necessarily mean they are, but it does mean they at least have deamonic powers).

As for what god is their patron?  I think it is Malal (now known as Malice).  The 5th chaos god, the god of anarchy and the lord of terror and the weak and downtrodden.  Think about it, the mandrakes are practically pariahs in Commorragh because of their appearance and the fact that they randomly take victims and do who knows what with them.  The followers of Malal love their rituals and sacrifices.  They take revenge on those who betray them.  They are widely regarded as the weakest unit.

Haha ok maybe that last one is said in jest, but as a big follower of chaos fluff, I'd say they are definitely deamons, and perhaps Kheradruagh means to do some sort of summoning.  Maybe he is doing a ritual in exchange for freedom from the Mandrake curse, in servitude of some maligned entity, or in the nice Dark Eldar fashion, just for fun.

No, Im not sure of that.

The DE are experts at sniffing out Chaos.

If Aerlindrach fell they could throw down the webgates to that sub realm; But they have not, and the Mandrakes are free to come and hunt as they please.

Mandrakes are feared; they are tolerated, possibly because it is rumoured they are the ones who discovered how to steal souls.

Anyhow, the Harlies would have taken action against any Eldar who fell to Chaos.

Do the Harlies regard the Mandrakes as Eldar????????

Kheradruakh - The way I pronounce it's name is similar to saying "Garage Rock".
Kher-ad-ruakh
Gar-age-rock
I don't know...it helps me.
Word-s!

-Jack-