1750 pts Demon allies

Latest incarnation of my tourney DE list, this time with Chaos Daemon allies.

*Note I dont have the new demon codex, so Im not 100% sure of the accuracy of the points values*


HQ
Haemonculus – 65
Shattershard
Elite
Kabalite Trueborn – 146
3 Trueborn
-3 blasters
Venom
-2nd splinter Cannon

Kabalite Trueborn – 146
3 Trueborn
-3 blasters
Venom
-2nd splinter Cannon

Kabalite Trueborn – 146
3 Trueborn
-3 blasters
Venom
-2nd splinter Cannon

Troops
Wyches – 145
8 wyches
Raider
DL & Shockprow

Warriors – 125
-Blaster
Venom
-2nd Splinter Cannon

Warriors – 125
-Blaster
Venom
-2nd Splinter Cannon

Warriors – 125
-Blaster
Venom
-2nd Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack
Reavers – 81
3 reavers
-Blaster

Reavers – 81
3 reavers
-Blaster

Heavy Support
Ravager – 105
3 Dark lances

Ravager – 105
3 Dark lances

Ravager – 105
3 Dark lances

ALLIES (Chaos Daemons)
HQ
Great Unclean one – 200

TROOPS
Nurglings – 52
4 nurglings
TOTAL: 1752


Haemy w/ the wyches, the daemons are a 1st/2nd turn deepstriking deathstar. No flyer defense apart from massed DLs and hugging the opponents board edge, so they are likely to fly right over the first turn.

definately a different list I must say. Any particular reasons why you went with daemon allies???

A pretty standard venom / blaster spam list with a twist or two.

Note that Im considering replacing all the blaster warrior squads for haywire wyche squads of the same value. Which do you think would be more effective? I started a thread on the subject here:

[url=Bluelight Special -- Blaster Warriors or Haywire Wyches]http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6494-bluelight-special-blaster-warriors-or-haywire-wyches[/url]

Anyway: The Haemonculus is just a cheaply bought HQ tax that gives the big wych-pit FnP & totes a single use MC / HQ imploder to support the wyches as they prepare to tie up the biggest nastiest CC unit my enemy has before (s)he zooms off in his(her) venom to cower & attempt to avoid relinquishing a Warlord VP.

Beyond that its pretty much venom alpha strike tactics.

-except- thats where the daemons come in (and yes, there were one or two extremely specific reasons I decided to take daemon allies)

I, being pretty new to the idea of 6th edition allies, was leaning towards Eldar or Corsair Eldar allies - why? Well they are our only battle brothers so I thought it was the right thing to do. I was especially interested in the corsair prince' single turn night fight black-out flare ability. The downside I thought was that to make a strong ally list involved a lot of points (and acutally looked quite similar to yours - less harlies, more GJB) And on top of that they all suffered from nightfight - which probably wasnt a huge disadvantage, but the whole reason I wanted that list was for the nigh fight flare (which would have no effect in 50% of games anyway)

So I started pondering what else I could use - something that in effect would cover me from a turn of shooting, long enough for me to essentially secure an effective alpha strike every game - and instead of the cover of darkness I decided to use a first turn deepstriking behemoth that is about to gnaw your lines apart - with some nurglings coming in on turn 2 to ties up your shootiest squads. (note that because I want the distraction to be more scary than survivable - in order to make it more likely to be targetted first - I may go with a more combat demon maybe with wings - Khorne?) As long as that thing survives at least 90% of one turns shooting, my venoms will then be in position to focus fire on the elements of the enemy force most able to retaliate. The reavers (which I must admit have always loved, but never had much success with) were given a new lease in objective heavy 6th I think and will be used A) as zooming tank poppers / secondary fire magnets & B) if they survive, they can hop on and contest an objective late game.

Theres also the weird debate over allies & the rule wording, saw the link on this forum actually, just didnt save it. Essentially, because desperate or conveneient allies are counted as enemy units that you just cant shoot, that when they die, both you and your opponent get a VP (in games using VPs) because you gain a VP for 'each enemy unit that leaves the table' or something like that. Pretty sure GW did not mean to do this, but it is as the rules describe. Besides if we have to live with a 200 pt raven - our potentially best antiair fighter whose primary weapon cannot damage flyers then Im holding them to this snafu as well!

Things im considering:

What about flyers?
DE flyers are weak, expensive & (apart from the Raven --FAQ STAT) a HS choice
Daemon flyers are either MCs (able to vector strike at str 6 max seeing as they dont have skyfire) or that FW Blight drone thing which requires you to take nurgle marines)

Possibly switch to Chaos marine allies, w/ a daemon prince HQ, deepstriking marine squad and a heldrake?

FMCs were faq'd to be able to use skyfire. Expanding on this, you could take 2 FMCs (1 HQ 1 HS) and greatly reduce your dependence on darklight..and wyches.

Quote :

FMCs were faq'd to be able to use skyfire. Expanding on this, you could take 2 FMCs (1 HQ 1 HS) and greatly reduce your dependence on darklight..and wyches.

Ok but even so, what does that give me access to? the possibility to get one of 3 randomly attttributed ranged weapons from the daemon codex that are all very short range and relatively lasckluster (str7 or 8 but usually only one shot) So I would still be stuck primarily with vector striking - so its not worth it in my opinion.

Even if I did, however, I dont think that would change DL dependence - its just too useful against so many ground targets we commonly face (termies, landraiders, tau etc) Plus the wyches vs. warriors debate is pretty much apart from the consideration of flyers - realistically neither of them will have any anti-flyer value so I would still take the wyches because they are more flexible & potentially damaging than min blaster warriors.

I recently sold off my DoC dex sadly but the slaaneshi FMC can have 2d6 S6 shots with skyfire and 360 degree arc at BS 5 plus vector strike. Hardly lackluster. Otherwise lords of change can also put out serious dakka as well and taking one in HQ lets you take a FMC in HS also.

If you've ever faced or watched dual dakka flyrants 12 S6 shots combined with vector strike wrecks flyers. Grounding can actually be in their favor here since they get to launch from zero instead of having a determined flight path. Cron air has a tough time with these guys dragons too Ive seen it. Only storm ravens actually remain mostly unconcerned.

You may be right on the DL dependence. My reason for saying 2 FMCs reduce dark lance dependence is more due to the drop in pts efficiency of DL access outside of ravagers and maybe trueborn where we start to pay a premium for these weapons. 2 FMCs bring a good amount of light AT ability at range and plenty in assault which frees up ravagers to hunt heavy armour first while the dakka daemons can hunt flyers and anything av10-11.

It sounds like you've made up your mind on the wyches vs warriors debate so cool, they are both good and both equally viable. I often take both with favor to warriors. My statement about reducing dependence on wyches for AT has nothing to do with anti flyer and actually reconsidering wyches I recant this. Wyches still have their place as do warriors.

Pauks818 wrote:

I, being pretty new to the idea of 6th edition allies, was leaning towards Eldar or Corsair Eldar allies - why? Well they are our only battle brothers so I thought it was the right thing to do. I was especially interested in the corsair prince' single turn night fight black-out flare ability. The downside I thought was that to make a strong ally list involved a lot of points (and acutally looked quite similar to yours - less harlies, more GJB) And on top of that they all suffered from nightfight - which probably wasnt a huge disadvantage, but the whole reason I wanted that list was for the nigh fight flare (which would have no effect in 50% of games anyway)

You have to remember if nightfight starts, it only lasts for the first turn. The lance shot gets you nightfight at anytime, which is very helpful to give us another turn of superior shooting over most armies.

Quote :

So I started pondering what else I could use - something that in effect would cover me from a turn of shooting, long enough for me to essentially secure an effective alpha strike every game - and instead of the cover of darkness I decided to use a first turn deepstriking behemoth that is about to gnaw your lines apart - with some nurglings coming in on turn 2 to ties up your shootiest squads. (note that because I want the distraction to be more scary than survivable - in order to make it more likely to be targetted first - I may go with a more combat demon maybe with wings - Khorne?) As long as that thing survives at least 90% of one turns shooting, my venoms will then be in position to focus fire on the elements of the enemy force most able to retaliate. The reavers (which I must admit have always loved, but never had much success with) were given a new lease in objective heavy 6th I think and will be used A) as zooming tank poppers / secondary fire magnets & B) if they survive, they can hop on and contest an objective late game.

Daemons now start on the board, So the GUO wont be able to support your army for awhile. I think you should look at either a bloodthirster or a LoC, both of which are flying MCs you can start on the field, and still get up the field quickly

Quote :

Things im considering:

What about flyers?
DE flyers are weak, expensive & (apart from the Raven --FAQ STAT) a HS choice
Daemon flyers are either MCs (able to vector strike at str 6 max seeing as they dont have skyfire) or that FW Blight drone thing which requires you to take nurgle marines)

Possibly switch to Chaos marine allies, w/ a daemon prince HQ, deepstriking marine squad and a heldrake?

DE Flyers really arent that bad. The Razorwing brings us amazing AI (sadly in an army that already has amazing AI... it is somewhat underapriciated) and the Void Raven is a competent AA platform. As for looking for great AA, look no further than Eldar's Nightwing. That thing is an amazing jetfighter, and is far superior to most other FMC/planes out there.

As for allies side, CSM offers some decent AA, but the helldrake itself isnt good for AA, its more for the baleflamer in its mouth. Your better off going with IG with Vendettas if you want superior AA that isnt Eldar

Quote :

You have to remember if nightfight starts, it only lasts for the first turn. The lance shot gets you nightfight at anytime, which is very helpful to give us another turn of superior shooting over most armies

Thats true, I overlooked that, but if I had it, the first turn is when Id want it - to give me cover while I position for Haywych alpha strike, any use after that is bonus. But right you still are, there are definitely more than a few Corsair/Eldar goodies that would really round out your force.

Quote :

Daemons now start on the board, So the GUO wont be able to support your army for awhile

really? I thought they retained the option to deploy via 5th deepstrike rules. Honestly the only reason I am taking them for is to be able to drop CC demon in my opponents face turn 1 to give them a choice of 'priority targets' vs haywyches positioned for alpha strike & 50% of the time 'shrouded'.

But if 6th Daemons really cant deploy as in 5th I would likely go for marines of one kind or another & drop pod assault them. I just think the value is not in flyer superiority, warphunter, GJB, one turn tactical nightfight or excellent psy defence & Doom on jetbike - its a coordinated & more reliable (read: planned) alpha-strike. Even deploy in cover so even if you go 2nd or Daemons/pods dont come in turn 1, then position just within subsequent turn charge range & plop the *efficient* DaemonStar near their shootiest / nastiest CC squad (depending on daemon type) so they can choose to shoot at your masssed AT/AI fire and vehicle wrecking wychpit grenades or the the beastie about to develop the commander / massed longfangs / broadsides / etc.

Quote :

As for allies side, CSM offers some decent AA, but the helldrake itself isnt good for AA, its more for the baleflamer in its mouth. Your better off going with IG with Vendettas if you want superior AA that isnt Eldar

Yes, but I wouldnt primarily take a heldrake for air defence, but more for a vector strike to assist DL or overall division of my force that is either planning on being in combat turn 2 or fast & maneuverable enough to avoid any flyers that arent maneuverable enough to remain on the board... like the heldrake. Just seems like an amazing opportunity to take the nastiest AI flyer currently which also seems to draw a ton of fire... and you can still take an HQ daemon prince for a tad more flyer defense.

I mean hey, its hardly ideal but the level of threat you can offer reliably on turn 2 just seems like a resource that is in desperate need of exploitation!

But then again, maybe thats just me.