1.5k tourney list. DE with Wraithguard to hold objectives. Please comment and criticise.

This is a thought I had for competitive play. Ironically, the Primary Detachment is the smaller one although I don't know of a rule that says it has to be larger points wise. FOC is legal though.

The idea behind the list is - how can an Eldar detachment mitigate our weaknesses?
In my eyes our biggest weaknesses are: little AA, little cover ignoring firepower (this means we can't shift people out of objectives without assault) and finally, no tough units to sit on objectives.

The list is quite shooty based with lots of Lance and Splinter fire. The Wave Serpents go ahead to drop the WG in cover on objectives and remove enemy from objectives if need be. The Venoms are filled with Wracks to keep the number of long ranged splinter fire high. The Crimson Hunter provides AA/AT and the Haemonulus hides.

Here is the list:

Haemonculus
Spiritseer

3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC
3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC
3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC
3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent w/tl SL
5 Wraithguard w/D-scythes, Wave Serpent w/tl SL

Crimson Hunter Exarch

Ravager
Ravager

= 1500 points exactly.

Strengths:
6 Scoring units, 2 of them very tough and durable.
Fast list with everything in transports.
AA, AT, AI firepower.

Weaknesses:
Weak HQ, potential STWL give away point.
17 Victory Points to potentially concede.
Little T1 long range AT. Only 6 lance shots. (I couldn't squeeze an extra Ravager into the list without removing two Venoms or a Venom and downgrading the CHE to just a CH).
No jetbikes to grab Line Breaker.

Over all I think this is potentially quite competitive and challenging. Potential changes could be swapping the Wave Serpents to have tl BLs rather than SLs and adding another Ravager somehow.

Please comment and criticise.

It is a decent list and very close to the template I laid in my post. At 1500 you are forced to make some hard choices. The list is mobile and that is key. You can reposition and you can force your opponent into bad choices. Nine vehicles will challenge any list when each one is a gunboat.

Do not take what I am about to say the wrong way, I just have a different philosophical viewpoint. First, I think that the Wave Serpents should have Bright Lances and not Scatter Lasers, specifically because you have 6 Lance shots capable of hitting two different targets until the Crimson Hunter comes in. IMO that the Crimson Hunter Exarch upgrade is too pricey--I understand the appeal of BS 5 but Pulse Lasers can make your Bright Lances twin-linked. D-Scythe Wraithguard are pretty insane but the other Wraithguard unit feels like a point sink to me. You could just take a unit of Fire Dragons, keep the Wave Serpent, and come out 50 points ahead. I think that changing to Bright Lances would be a very good idea.

By switching out the Wraithguard and not taking the Crimson Hunter Exarch, you would have enough points to change two squads of Wracks into Kabalite Warriors with Blasters with points to spare.

Your T1 Shooting goes from 6 Lances @ 2 Targets to 8 Lances @ 4 Targets. After T1, you have a potential 17(19) Lances/Meltas/Lasers @ 7 Targets. In addition, two of your troops can contribute to shooting. I would also consider dropping a Wrack Venom in favor of six Guardian Jetbikes.

What is left is something very different from the original concept but not so alien as to be recognizable. Your shooting ability would become far more considerable and you gain mobility. In addition to being able to get Line Breaker and would be able to deny objectives.

The changes I proposed should put you at 1497.

I see Dark_Kindred's line of thought. I don't like BLs on my serpents. I like the reliabilty of Scattrlasers and then if needed TL Shields - only if needed. I agree the exarch upgrade on the Hunter is not necessary but I like nightshields on my Ravs in case I do not go first. I also think you want two squads of WG - Now I fit both mine with d-scythes because they can clear an objective and hold it and the seer does give them battle focus (play as Iyanden). You have plenty of AT in your list ... for 1500 points. You are set on having 6 troops t 1500 ... I drop to five but I keep the WG ... I find three venoms are enough so I drop a Wrack squad. All that said I would try your list as is. The bones are good. Blaster warriors in venoms seem good on paper ... but I don't even mount my Wracks at times ... I hide them. If you are close enough to use a blaster in your venom I suspect you are dead next turn.

I like the list a lot.

I would be worried about your T1 anti tank as well. Personally, I would make the D scythe squad a normal wraithcannon squad, and turn a couple of the wrack squads into wyches with haywire. This gives you more anti tank from the cannons and the haywire, and some nice forward presurre with the wyches against parking lots.

4 venoms + 2 Wave serpents is plenty of anti infantry at 1500. I wouldn't call it too much, but its definitely enough.

EDIT: Also, I'd take the exarch upgrade off the flier. At 1500 points, I think the stock flyer will do the job.

Dark_Kindred wrote:

IMO that the Crimson Hunter Exarch upgrade is too pricey--I understand the appeal of BS 5 but Pulse Lasers can make your Bright Lances twin-linked.

I can't find this in the Codex. Are you sure about this rule?


Thank you all for your comments. It seems there are quite a few different opinions on the theory side of things. I can't wait to get play testing this list!

Based on the things you've all said, I have come up with two variants on the list. The first is basically the same thing but the CH is downgraded so I can squeeze in an extra Ravager. I concur with many people's comments on there not being enough T1 AT.

The Second list is reworked a bit further following the thought that I don't need two WG units and that merely one will suffice. This allows me to have warriors in the list, an extra Ravager, keep the Exarch Hunter and get some Jetbikes for line breaker/objective contesting.

Which list do you guys think is better?


List 1:

Haemonculus w/LFG
Spiritseer

3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC
3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC
3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC

5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent w/tl SL
5 Wraithguard w/D-scythes, Wave Serpent w/tl SL

Crimson Hunter

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

= 1500 points exactly.


List 2:

Haemonculus
Spiritseer

3 Wracks, Venom w/2xSC

5 Warriors w/Blaster, Venom w/2xSC
5 Warriors w/Blaster, Venom w/2xSC
5 Warriors w/Blaster, Venom w/2xSC

5 Wraithguard w/D-scythes, Wave Serpent w/tl SL

5 Wind Rider Jetbikes

Crimson Hunter Exarch

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

= 1500 points exactly.


I think I'm leaning more towards list 2 as it ticks all the boxes. What are people's thoughts though?

Many thanks for all your comments.

List 2 seems better rounded. Ticking all the right boxes whilst at the same time actually looking safer.

Quick glance says 1 "safe" durable troop option (Wraithguard) is traded (with list reshuffled of course) vs 1 additional troop choice, better rounded troop options, Linebreaker and more AT saturation.

List 2 indeed looks very strong and I might copy it at some point!

Both look pretty solid. Personally, I think Night Shields are more valuable on the Venoms than the Exarch upgrade on the flier, but thats a playstyle thing. I pick list 2.

It seems like you really like the D-Scythes, and I can understand why - they're brutal when you can land em - but taking them out still leaves you with better anti tank, a longer range gun (only 12", but still), and some points freed up for perhaps night shields, a cannon on your bikes, or a shattershard on the haemy.

This is all completely min-maxing your solid list, however. If you're playing against deathwing or something, you'll completely destroy them after deep striking.

Thanks. Yea, I've found it difficult to shift tough units and blobs from cover on objectives. It has lost me a game or two and made others very tight. This is due to us having very little cover ignoring stuff so I'm keen to try out these WG exterminators.

mug7703 wrote:

Dark_Kindred wrote:

IMO that the Crimson Hunter Exarch upgrade is too pricey--I understand the appeal of BS 5 but Pulse Lasers can make your Bright Lances twin-linked.

I can't find this in the Codex. Are you sure about this rule?

Is a Pulse Laser a laser? According to pp.62 of the Codex, Pulse Lasers and Bright Lances are lasers. Laser weapons have Laser Lock, which makes other guns you shoot from the same model twin-linked if you hit. That's why the Crimson Hunter Exarch is overpriced. Incidentally, you can shoot something with a Wave Serpent's twin-linked Bright lance to twin-link its Serpent Shield.

List 2 is much safer.

Dark_Kindred wrote:

mug7703 wrote:

Dark_Kindred wrote:

IMO that the Crimson Hunter Exarch upgrade is too pricey--I understand the appeal of BS 5 but Pulse Lasers can make your Bright Lances twin-linked.

I can't find this in the Codex. Are you sure about this rule?

Is a Pulse Laser a laser? According to pp.62 of the Codex, Pulse Lasers and Bright Lances are lasers. Laser weapons have Laser Lock, which makes other guns you shoot from the same model twin-linked if you hit. That's why the Crimson Hunter Exarch is overpriced. Incidentally, you can shoot something with a Wave Serpent's twin-linked Bright lance to twin-link its Serpent Shield.

List 2 is much safer.

From what I can tell, only the Scatter Laser has the Laser Lock special rule.

Ferox77 wrote:

Dark_Kindred wrote:

mug7703 wrote:

Dark_Kindred wrote:

IMO that the Crimson Hunter Exarch upgrade is too pricey--I understand the appeal of BS 5 but Pulse Lasers can make your Bright Lances twin-linked.

I can't find this in the Codex. Are you sure about this rule?

Is a Pulse Laser a laser? According to pp.62 of the Codex, Pulse Lasers and Bright Lances are lasers. Laser weapons have Laser Lock, which makes other guns you shoot from the same model twin-linked if you hit. That's why the Crimson Hunter Exarch is overpriced. Incidentally, you can shoot something with a Wave Serpent's twin-linked Bright lance to twin-link its Serpent Shield.

List 2 is much safer.

From what I can tell, only the Scatter Laser has the Laser Lock special rule.

Nice catch, my bad. My pride.

That would have been really cool though!

Okay. Thanks for the advice guys. List 2 it is. I need to get some Wraithguard, a Seer and a Serpent and then I can start play testing it.