A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

They are Slow and Purposeful right? If so get out those Wyches...they have work to do.

egorey wrote:

- be prepared -

Quick word on Centurions with Tigerius. One of our members already saw this squad at work and destroy a list in three turns. This is a 15 wound, T5, 2+/4++ unit with 30 TLed BS4 Grav Cannon shots. Against anything with a 4+ save or better, the unit is devastating. This is a durable unit, able to absorb lots of small arms fire and even high strength, low AP weaponry. Yikes.

Let us look at Tigerius now. We can put him in a squad with up to 6 Centurions - 4 will probably be the sweet spot - and an allied Librarian. Why would we do that. To get Gates of Infinity (he has retools to select. So Tiggy takes Telekinisis and the Libby takes Divination (for prescience). Each turn you can bounce the squad 24" around the board (use Homing Beacons if you need to on various units)  DA Libby gives re-rolls to hit and everyone a 4++.

Now you have a majority T5 unit with 17 wounds, majority 2+/4++ save that can move 24", then shoot another 24". So 30 shots, all BS4 Twin-Linked, and the Grav Amps for retools will take out any Geq, Meq, MC or vehicle in the game. Gate and prescience are both blessings, so their is no Deny the Witch rolls. With Tigurius  passing his psychic tests (almost guaranteed) all the other Telekinisi rolls are pretty useful too.

This squad is fearless, has split fire, and can use its TL blotter shots against hordes with low armor saves instead of the grave when needed. A single round of shooting will take out any, I repeat ANY, vehicle, flyer, geq squad, meq squad or MC in the game.

There are those that will say the squad is just too expensive. We are looking at a deathstar well over 750+ points depending on how you wish to run it. If you want beacons you need to find the back-up troops and units to support this. So it has its drawbacks. But there are going to be waac lists using combos like this at tournaments. We need to figure out ways to counter this.

That's certainly an exceptionally nasty combo, although as you already noted, it's ridiculously expensive. Best bet would be to tarpit it in assault. Wyches would be good for this as they don't even have to face overwatch due to SnP.

Definitley good news on SnP. I actually think Wyches are going to see a comeback. Especially against Centurions and SS/TH Vanguard Vets and termies.

Yep. Wyches will be useful against a number of the new lists. I already include a squad of ten in my Urien list. There are going to be LRs, Ironclads, S=P units, and more that are prime targets for these guys. It is just a matter of keeping your transport safe first turn so you can get there, lol.

That is nasty. Aside from the assault angle which is already being discussed, it seems to me that the weakness, if you can call it that, in the unit is the Librarians. They are only T4 aren't they? They've got the save and Look Out, Sir, etc., but if they maneuver poorly they might be able to be taken out by a dark light shot. They also might be able to be hit enough with Bladevanes to take out a poorly placed librarian. Likewise, we have some wargear that specifically hits psychers. It's not great IMO, but it might help here.

I'm also wondering how good this large unit would be against a truly MSU list. Split Fire only lets one model redirect fire in a turn doesn't it? So at best, these guys can kill two units a turn. At their points, they'll take a lot of turns to make back their points if everything they can shoot up is small fish. Plus, all those small units can still try to drown the Librurian unit in volume of fire. (Our problem is the saves, not the toughness).

I'm a bit confused from the O.P. how exactly these things were armed. Grav weapons obviously, but those are not that great against troops with bad armor and would not be my first choice against a vehicle either. The other weapon is missile launchers or something else. I'd be more afraid of the ML here, but the O.P. made reference to bolters.

Three centurions have grav - the others and the libbie and tig have their weapons. You can arm the sarg. So you could add different weapons to the squad. It is not a horde killing unit but you should be near another unit that deal with that anyway.

You average 3 HP on that squad a turn against flyers and 4 against most vehicles.

Yes it is not a good against MSU but it is also not your whole list.

egorey wrote:

Yep. Wyches will be useful against a number of the new lists. I already include a squad of ten in my Urien list. There are going to be LRs, Ironclads, S=P units, and more that are prime targets for these guys. It is just a matter of keeping your transport safe first turn so you can get there, lol.

Yeah thats where the CW allies come in. With waveserpents, wraithknights and other tanks bopping about pumping out the fire power my DE allies in raiders are usually ignored.

Now that I'm done with a hectic week I can get back in on this, I see Eg. has already gone ahead thrown out some ideas. Hopefully this upcoming week will see me working on my DE models so I can finish that stuff up...though marines are tickling my fancy to start thinking how I want to rework and change up all my marine stuff.

WKs and WSs will get destroyed by centurions with grav...it won't even be funny. My original idea was to use Tiggy to get reroll hits, 4++ and ignores cover on whatever squad you want to beef up. I do like that gate of infinity idea, I had thought about it briefly but totally missed the idea of the beacons. Now obviously if I was using the centurions I'd watch very closely for an assaulting tarpit unit since they can't overwatch. Ideally I'd have my own assault specialists running close by keeping the dakka deathstar safe. I have some ideas for a personal list using the models I own and plan to get by xmas that I will present soon. The other thing we have to be careful about as DE is auspexes...another cover reducing option though not as bad as markerlights for sure and not as numerous.


As I wait for a flight I am going to figure out my 500 pt tiggy detachment that can make use of some of his abilities.
*
*some time passes and an edit happens
*
So here is a random idea I had...this doesn't make a lot of use of the ultramarines rules...but hey its another LR variant so who cares?

Tiggy
5 man scout squad with shotguns or cc/pistol w/e floats your boat
Hyperios Land Raider...essentially a godhammer with a skyfiring, interceptor rack of krak missiles
-500 points exact

The best part is that the hyperios still has room for 6 models, tiggy can boost the crap out of the tank with whatever you deem you want to get. Maybe make teh scout squad on the counter assault side of wargear and use them to try to control areas that need help. The missile launcher also has heet seeker which allows you reroll hits on flyers and fast skimmers...bamf

Another option instead of the LR is to take a squad of sternguard vets and move them around with tiggy making them monsters of death with all that special ammo.

So maybe to make things intersting go this route:
Tiggy
5 man scout squad snipers...60 pts
10 man vanguard vet squad...230 points
rhino...35 points

This leaves 10 points in the list...I'd say go for the extra armor on the rhino to keep it going, remember tiggy can beef up the rhino to keep it alive or you can hide it behind those other Land Raiders! Or if you feel crazy use it has cover for the Land raiders...The scouts go hide in some bulked up terrain that the techmarines provided and just sniper targets that could use a pinning test or what have you. Camp them on some home objective.

Another option for the 10 points is to take auspexes on the techmarines.


There are really lots of options to throw in with Tiggy...you could go for another thunderfire cannon, take scouts with tellion and camp them behind an aeigs with a quadgun

or take a hunter/stalker instead of the aegis...choice is yours

The more detailed ideas I gave you are the ones I like the most that are of my origin...the thunderfire scouts aegis is an idea by Eg and certainly not bad as all.

ligs wrote:

Tiggy
5 man scout squad with shotguns or cc/pistol w/e floats your boat
Hyperios Land Raider...essentially a godhammer with a skyfiring, interceptor rack of krak missiles
-500 points exact

I like this a lot. It would be the best 500 point addition if it was not actually more. Tiggy is 230, Scouts 55 and Helios 270. I do rather like my MotF in the initiate squad but meh. Lig's list can work quite well. Definitely something to consider.
tiggy is 165, scouts 55  and helios 280 - i horribly miscalculated the points. It is an excellent alllied addition indeed. It gets a shot at AA, an extra LR and Tiggy's powers.

So here is the list I actually have - as opposed to lists I might want or expect to see ...

== Space Wolves White Scars/1850==

HQ: 1 Rune Priest: Runic Axe; Runic Armour; Master of the Runes; Divination/JotWW/SC 170 {warlord/personal} (SW)
HQ: 1 Chapter Master; Artificier Armour; Shield Eternal; Thunder Hammer; Bike 250 (WS)

Elites: 2x 1 Dreadnought: 2 TL Autocannons; Smoke Launchers; Searchlight 250 (SW)
Elites: 1 Lone Wolf: Mark of the Wulfen;  Storm Shield; Fenrisian Wolf 85 (SW)

Troop: 2x 10 Grey Hunters; 2 Meltagun; Wolf Standard; Mark of the Wulfen; Power Axe; Drop Pod 460 (SW)
Troop: 9 Grey Hunters; 2 Plasmguns; Wolf Standard; Mark of the Wulfen; Power Axe; Drop Pod 230 (SW)
Troop: 5 Bikers; 2 Grav Guns, Combi-Grav 145 (WS)

Heavy Support; 1x 6 Long Fangs: 3 Missile Launchers; 2 Plasma Cannon 160 (SW)
Heavy Support: 1 Thunderfire Cannon 100 (WS)

@ Pods drop in turn one. The Thunderfire, LFs and rifle Dreads light up whatever they can. The bikes are going to follow behind those drop pods. I don't have a lot of AA in the list. Just prescienced LFs and Rifle Dreads. But I'm fairly confident that I will wipe out much of the ground forces early. Turn two a lot of my force will have moved up to back the drop podded marines ( and another pod might even arrive). I have two plasma GH I might swap out for the two melta in the 3rd pod and put the Rune Priest there but I will see.

Now the Rune Priest has Jaws. Consider Jaws with concussion. Yep. However, I can easily swap out my powers for Divination if it is the better choice. I'm guaranteed the Primaris that way. He will also join the plasma GH coming in after the two melta squads drop. Now a number of players are putting the RP on a bike and having him join the other bikes but my RP is already modeled. I could do it if I wanted to ... add a GH to the plasma squad and then ...

RP, Bike, Runic Armour, Melta Bombs, Jaws, Tempest Wrath 160
Adding a GH would actually just cost 5 points ( i am paying for both plas now) so it is very doable and perhaps better.

This would require a new RP, lol. I have mine modeled without a bike so I am playing what I have for now.

Tiggy had a massive points drop to 165...check the dex also i have the rules for the hyperios its definately 280

Of course he is 165 points. No wonder I could not fit him in, doh. We older players get confused easily. So your build is actually pretty tight. I like it. I amended my comments to reflect that. The four LR list is pretty nasty overall but it has its weaknesses - few troops, vulnerable to strong AT lists .

September 16th

Ok guys, so life is slightly less hectic now so I can give a couple lists I have been thinking about. One is a list based on something I'd like to be able to do in the future...as in I don't have the models yet. The second list will be something I could put together today if I wanted once I convert Chapter Master Ligolski to Chief Librarian and Chapter Master Ligolski.

Lets start with the first list...oh I'm not really into the double chapters for my personal army...going ultramarines

CHAPTER TACTICS: ULTRAMARINES
Tiggy [165]
Techmarine (auspex, bolt pistol, power axe, servo arm) [70]

Vanguard Vet squad (5 guys, jumppacks, lightning claw, shields, bolt pistols, melta bombs) [260]

3x Tactical squad (heavy bolter, flamer) [155 each]
1x Tactical squad (plasma cannon, meltagun) with razorback (lascannon)  [240]

Stormtalon gunship [110]

Centurion Devastators (missile launchers, grav cannons, omniscope) in a Land Raider [540]
==1850 pts exact
So this list is weird to me because I'm not sure on some of my choices to be honest...mainly the Stormtalon and perhaps that razorback. Since I'm going ultramarines, it may be more beneficial to use a devestator squad, but I only have so many heavy weapons at my disposal. However, things I really do like about the list is Tiggy with the centurions...Tiggy would go for the reroll hits, 4++ and ignores cover powers which would make them freaking ripped. The vanguard vets are for close support preventing anyone from trying to tarpit my glorious dakka unit...which has the ability to destroy anything except full on light infantry spam.  If I faced that them I would go for the tanks that usually follow or just use them to annoy and tie down whatever i need to. The rest of the marines can foot slog it for now...though I have thoughts to mechanize them in rhinos due to the new rules with combat squads...which is what I would generally do in most missions for target saturation. The razorback would carry the meltagun and go tank hunting as needed as well. Flamers are there for AI of the light variety as well as HBs.  

This list will probably change immensely as I'm not fully into it.  Just seems to be missing something...maybe I'd be better off with a thunderfire over the stormtalon and drop the techmarine for a pair of rhinos....just not too sure yet.



SECOND LIST
So this list is something I personally could field right now with just a couple hours of work at most (minus a ton of painting that my marines need haha).

Tiggy [165]
Techmarine (auspex, bp, power axe, servo arm) [70]

Sternguard vets (10 guys, 2 plasma guns) [295]
Vanguard vets (5 guys, jumppacks, lightning claw, shields, bolt pistols, melta bombs) [260]

Scout squad (sarge, 6 snipers, camo cloaks) [97]
3x Tactical Squads (10 guys, flamer, heavy bolter) in a rhino [190 each]

Land Raider Crusader [250]
Predator (all 'dem lascannons!) [140]

==1847 pts

So I must say I like the look of this list. I've traded the centurions for a sternguard squad...I personally don't like the idea of paying a ton of points for combi-weapons so I don't bother...not to mention I don't have any combi weapons laying around to equip them. I've also mechanized the force and will thus be fairly mobile for moving to where I need to shore up issues. The techmarine would go with the vets just to keep the land raider alive and maybe go join the tac squads when auspexing needs to be done. Tiggy goes for the same buffs as before making the vet squad nice and dakka oriented with vanguard vets for close support that is fairly resilient. The predator is added for the needed AT now that the centurions are gone.

I realize that rhinos blow these days and they give up first blood nice and easy, but I feel like they can be useful given the chance much like our raiders. Its about using them smoke launchers at the right time and finding cover...even if that means using the LR as cover haha.

This army has its weaknesses for sure...so much so I'm not really sure how it would hold up to the likes of tau, eldar, and heldrakes...but it remains to be seen I suppose.


Please comment and critique, I have a decent amount of marines at my disposal just none of the new stuff from this edition and some of the new stuff from last edition (read: just about all the new stuff from last codex...)

I like your second list a lot more but it does need combi-weapons to make it ultra competitive. I see your aversion to go out and re-model but sometimes it is just better to bite the bullet. Combi-melta and combi-plasma might be staples in your list design. Worth a second look? I hope you are not abadoning your DelDar ... well i know you will not.

I think we have summed up some of new lists out there now, what are basic plans for SM (for our own lists) and what we expect see might be and its now time to refocus on what this forum is about - playing DelDar! We have our work cut out for us but we are lucky. Quite a few of the lists are vulnerable to poison, our mobility, our unique units and flexibility.

This thread is rather like Darwin's voyages on the Beagle. We are studying how DelDar adapts and survives the environment or becomes extinct. We started with some basic builds but we needed to observe the meta and make appropriate adjustments. Heldrakes, riptides, wraithknights, wave serpents, screamerstars, biker grav spam and more have altered the meta considerably. Developing a TAC DelDar list meant adaptation in both unit choice and tactical application was necessary as only the strong survive. So we went through at least six or seven different iterations of possible DelDar lists we believed were competitive and suited to the meta. We put many of these iterations to the test.

We are now going to see if they hold up against a new codex that will also change some of the lists we have been facing. Tau/Dar will have to evolve as well as MCs have become more vulnerable. Are my Talos going to be victims of of the new grav spam? Will I be able to face down four landraiders with my current list? If I make changes will it weaken my list against necrons, tau and daemons?

Just some food for thought ...

Well put my good sir. I know that my list is going to suffer terribly to the hands of grav weapons if fielded in mass. My MC spam is all about some tough creatures who happen to have 3+ saves...could be worse but not good especially since Talos do not have an invuln, making that first pain token all that more important. Cover will be the most helpful thing, thankfully talos aren't too big to find cover and can always look for area terrain. My wraithknight and wraithguard are going to have problems. What's my solution? Throw my grots and and wracks (once I finish them) at them and tarpit them into oblivion if necessary. My archon would be able to chew through the regular guys, haemie takes the challenge if they are using some super beefy captain/chapter master. Nice thing is, between these 2 units that would be 3 liquifier shots hopefully thinning things out.

I doubt anyone will field any amount of super grav spam as its not competitive enough against armies like us in general and guard, though they do have the bolters on bikes as back up. At that point it will be about throwing the poison at them and counter assaulting to slow them down if need be.

As for LR spam...if I see more tanks I could start running wraithcannons again on my wraithguard over the D-sythes. My Wraithknight would in theory go hoping around destroying those silly things with its S10 weapons and 5 S10 assault hits on the charge. I also have 2 squads of 5 wyches with HWG that could help out easily enough. The key will to make sure they get there.

What if I face a Tiggy + centurion deathstar? Shoot it in the face, force those saves. If that doesn't work throw my grots and wracks at them to tarpit them down, using the wyches as back up in case it gets messy. Over if I feel like I want to be brave, send the D-sythes out and go for a ton of auto hitting AP2 hits that can cause ID Even tiggy would be sad at that. I think it will be about strategy for me to avoid grav weapons and counter appropriately at this point....well I hope!

I will just have to wait and see what happens...now to get my butt moving and work on those models...I've been found wanting lately...luckily no commissars around here!

Don't forget the Wraithknight also has range on the centurions and is much faster. He'll be instakilling the centurions on unsaved wounds with the wraithcannon, and his 18+ inches of range and jump pack moves should keep him safe. And if that doesnt work for you there is also the suncannon which has even more range. Also the scatter laser serpent shield attacks from WS could really ruin there day as well.

Do taloi (monstrous creatures) get cover from area terrain? There is something they don't get cover from, but I don't have my book handy.

Also, Centurions can have hurricane bolters or missile launchers in addition to the gravcannons. That is how they work on hordes.

The Centurions are not that good with assault, but most marine players will probadly run dedicated counter-assault or intercepting assault units. They are well aware of the potential to get tied up in assault.

Dan

Yes, 5+ cover save if they have foot in area terrain. Otherwise they need to be obscured 25% ---
Centurions are S+P - that is their weakness overall. But Taloi are not quick either. And grav will be seen on bikes too. And since I'm posting anyway ... here are a few thoughts to mull over.

There is no doubt that new codexes and rules have made list building a different proposition in 6ed than in 5ed. By now most players should have recognized this. Dark Eldar are not playing the way they did six months ago.

You now need to account for:

- Psychic powers that will hurt your army (jaws combined with grave)
- Allies that create units that are very powerful (tau commander with reapers),
- Flyers (heldrakes, vendettas, stormravens), hull points (AV14 can be taken out easier and everything else)
- Expendable troops (buffering with disposable Troops is common practice) and overwatch (send in your grots first))  
- Annoying MCs (riptides, wraithknights and still dreadknights).

Now I won't list every example - there are numerous ones for each category above.

So list building is one facet we need to work on now more than ever. We also need to be sure that we have a full understanding of the essential rules. I still have to remind people how cover works, how wound allocation works and when you have to snapfire. We study other army lists that we probably will face and we understand their rules as well as our own. Going into a match not knowing the damage output of a unit, whether we are likely to win an assault, and how flyers and reserves can only end badly. We have to deploy wisely - games can and will be lost on the first twp turns. We need to play without making those tactical errors that to losses. I have discussed at length what DE need to emphasize - their flexibility and speed - and what they need to avoid - playing like a marine list. So now is the time to post up lists that can compete with these factors in mind.

Cavalier wrote:

Don't forget the Wraithknight also has range on the centurions and is much faster. He'll be instakilling the centurions on unsaved wounds with the wraithcannon, and his 18+ inches of range and jump pack moves should keep him safe. And if that doesnt work for you there is also the suncannon which has even more range. Also the scatter laser serpent shield attacks from WS could really ruin there day as well.

One thought I had was to just park a Wave Serpent with Guardians inside of it 1" from the Centurion Land Raider after it's moved up the field. It's less than half the cost and CWE/DE are very good at alpha strike so you're liable to take out anything that can shoot at your Wave Serpent. This leave the SM player the option to try to drive around (can only move 6" before disembarking), or shoot the Wave Serpent. Even if the WS gets wrecked then your guardians can shoot (rending) and assault the centurions (who can't overwatch) and tie them up for a while.

egorey wrote:

Yes, 5+ cover save if they have foot in area terrain. Otherwise they need to be obscured 25% ---

Actually they have a cover save if they have a toe in area terrain. That's why Riptides are so much fun.

egorey wrote:

Centurions are S+P - that is their weakness overall.

The biggest weakness to me is that dev cents are crazy expensive, have 1 attack, short range and S+P means that they can't overwatch so you can tarpit them more effectively than any unit in the game. For some reason even Broadsides have 2 attacks.

egorey wrote:

There is no doubt that new codexes and rules have made list building a different proposition in 6ed than in 5ed. By now most players should have recognized this. Dark Eldar are not playing the way they did six months ago.

I think this is an interesting point and everything you wrote after is very valid. There are about a dozen reasons that pure Venom/Ravager lists are not doing as well this edition and we're going to have to start looking elsewhere for the future. What you're doing here is really good (even if you're crazy and we like to criticize) because we get to see some pretty off-the-wall stuff. I also like Lig's lists which look more normal and competitive but which feature some units we aren't used to seeing as often. I don't want to call anybody out, but there are a few other people on this board who have been experimenting lately and I think it's going to be very useful going forward. SMs might not be a big threat for us, but Tyranids could be intimidating considering a lot of DE players have been falling to them this edition with their flyers and never dying MCs.

Also I think I'm supposed to say that I think FW should be allowed or GW shouldn't have barred allies from manipulating reserves or something.

There are a few interesting tricks that can be played with focus fire as well. Eldar have battle focus. So as long as one model from a unit is in the way of a target that target gets a cover save. Let me try and illustrate ...

        t t t
          t t
               IC


                 
              2  2   2 2
                      2
    111111

Someone wants to tank wounds with an IC that is very hard to kill. But we play Eldar. We only need one model in squad #2 to grant intervening model cover to the IC and the #1 squad can focus fire on the troops. They can then battle focus forward. And in this way squad two in the shooting phase can also battle focus and then make sure to finish off those troops. A simple technique. But you have to know the cover rules to prevent the tanking IC (Tau use commanders for this to protect crisis or reapers - grav bikes use a CM - beast stars use the baron and a seer from preventing you from hurting the models you want to.

DETERMINING COVER SAVES (page 18)
If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on page 8)is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save.

INTERVENING MODELS
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.

So knowing the new rules is essential. Knowing to place a talos foot in area terrain is important. Knowing slow and purposeful units cannot overwatch is important. Knowing you can move a heavy weapons unit now but still snapfire shots is important. I know, Fu that you read that a squad assaulted a different unit from the one they shot at because the shot at unit broke and fled. Uh uh. Skimmers do provide TLOS. They are not guaranteed to block line of sight.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to know your rules and USE them to your advantage when playing DelDar. Also do not make assumptions to easily playing DelDar and know their strengths in 6ed. Hull points are not all bad. A glance could destroy one of our vehicles in 5th. Now we lose a hull point instead. Of course, we still have weak vehicles .. but at least know the rules. We can move them 12" now and another 18" in the shooting phase. This lets us get a blaster into range quickly. This lets us block with our vehicles. Both have applications. Dark Eldar love night fighting. The maximum range for night fighting is 36" - the same as our splinter cannons and we ignore night fighting - our opponent does not. Stay back and get shrouding and jink saves. Your opponent will not. Know the new rapid fire rules. It makes our warriors much better. Moving a raider 6"and then firing from inside is good. And do not leave home without haywires. You will glance ANYTHING into oblivion. Amd Mush will remind how good reavers are in 6ed and will tell you how good an 84 point beast pack is with twenty rending assaults - best disposable troop in the game, IMHO.

People hail poison weapons but do note that poison is way more effective against tougher units than standard tacs and hordes. DE shine against elite tough armies. That is our strength. We can handle non-flying Nid MCs fine. So get Eldar to take care of the flyers. So what are the biggest threats? Wave Serpent spam acan kill us. Tau with missile spam can kill us. AV13 Necron spam, Night Scythes and annoying scarbs (why are they not used more) and wraithwing (we have poison but two wound #+ inv. on that fast a unit is still tough) can hurt us.

Let's really start examining what we can do well, what tricks we can employ, and what weaknesses we can mitigate.

egorey wrote:

There are a few interesting tricks that can be played with focus fire as well.

I have never seen this before. If this works the way you say it does then it could indeed be a very useful way to snipe out Tau Buff Commanders.

egorey wrote:

I know, Fu that you read that a squad assaulted a different unit from the one they shot at because the shot at unit broke and fled.

I read this as you saying this is my interpretation. It's not, I just read that someone did this in a battle report. The unit shot at one unit and killed it, then assaulted a different unit for the record.

I really like this thread even if I find it hard to contribute to it. It's like your laboratory where you guys hone your secret weapons. When people complain about DE, it's usually because we don't win by virtue of high numbers and a lot of dice. It's typically because DE can make good use of the rules present in the rulebook and doing it effectively makes the opponent feel helpless. Hopefully we can get the shoe back on the other foot and win with superior tactics and use of the base ruleset instead of needing to ally in the most competitive armies.

I love seeing contribution like this from others to the thread! Also thank you for liking my lists. I am essentially chronicling my DE experience which started a little over a year ago. There are lots of options, I'm not a big fan of trying to abuse the focus fire rules...I feel like trying to set something up like that can be complicated and distract you from other issues...maybe I'm just being lazy, not sure.

I may have a game this Friday afternoon/evening. No idea what army my friend will play. I don't have my venom and wracks together/painted so I will probably try to play around with the my last list. I'm hoping to at least switch to D-sythes and maybe drop the reavers for something else...not really sure. I'll think about it tonight and tomorrow.

Wraith-guard are still fantastic d-scythes or wraithcannons. Nice durable troop and a kick a#@ transport. And your list is good. So different from my play style but still very effective. I sat experiment. See how it goes without reavers for a game and then decide what you want. I had warp spiders in my list - thought they were okay - but have not missed dropping them at all. I'm beginning to think swooping hawks might be better - many tricks with these guys.

== disclaimer - I'm not really trying to lecture here. I write this as much for myself as for others to remind me of the basic DE principles ==


I'm not big on re-hashing - well maybe I am - but I guess we  need to revisit revious subjects. Remember I said we should always pre-measure. Remember I said raiders have many uses. So how do you lose three or four raiders turn one? Make sure one blocks LoS to the others. Make sure you are max distance away turn one with night fighting. Flickerfierlds save you turn one. Why do I read batreps where the whole fleet is lost turn one? You know the 36"max distance night fight rules right? Why do you not get pain tokens for your Talos and use them as singles rather than pairs? So you fire with them before you fire other weapons at a squad to weaken it? Why do you send wyches in to assault into overwatch? Do you not have another troop choice that you can send first?

Creating list requires some redundancy and failsafes when playing DE. We are fragile and we are likely to lose a few units. But we do have flexibility - both AI and AT can be loaded up in a transports with troops - we have ways of increasing our durability and we have speed. Remember this - we have FLEET. So do as the duckdrake does. You have to be methodical, know your target priority and use the movement phase to your advantage. Against shooty armies deploy as smart as you can to minimize damage. Hope for night fight or sacrifice a unit or two. We have the speed to make a comeback.  We are open topped. We can move 6" disembark 6" and reroll our charge distances. Also, night fighting with DE means going second is often better than going first. We have night vision and they do not. You know that are vehicles are fast. They can also block LoS and block units attempting to advance. We can move 30" and pivot sideways. Dark Eldar have to come at you from different angles causing perplexing choices and making it difficult to play against.  

A lot has been said of our glaring weaknesses. Deployment can negate the shooting or Vector Striking of the fliers for at least one turn regardless of deployment. Once they come forward, you have enough shooting to ground them and kill them. Helldrakes are a difficult, but our fliers can do very well against them. Everything that looks at our troops or vehicles kill them anyway, so the Helldrake is really no different. Play the game to your strengths. More than most armies we require a highly developed tactical acumen to play successfully.  It is just easier to play power armour or necrons. Point and click necron air and stand and shoot marines are easy. Playing fragile highly mobile DE is hard. To consistently win with them over 5-8 round tournaments takes skill and practice. That does not mean you have to resort only to the tried and true net lists and units though. If you have been reading my thread you know that is not my style at all.

You really want to play hellions. Excellent … drag that IC out with a squad with a stun claw. You like Scourges … okay .. . reavers first go after tanks then jet away and have those scourges follow up. Remember we can use cover as well as any list in 40k. We have FLEET. Get to cover. Don't assault with wyches first. Have them follow up and use them to BLOW up tanks. That is where they excel. Warriors can fleet, shoot (snap fire if needed) and rinse. Someone wants to protect their IC with the new wound allocation rules - grab a shattershard on your haemie. Flickerfields provide an invulnerable save. I know we have ink but we do not on turn one. Also, night fighting with DE means going second is often better than going first. We have night vision and they do not. You know that are vehicles are fast. They can also block LoS and block units attempting to advance. We can move 30" and pivot sideways. Raiders with aethrsails are also great for tank shock or ramming.

I used focus fire just to illustrate that knowing the rules lends options. You might not set that up in ten straight games but then in one game it becomes relevant. I use an autarch w/ mantle. I don't often send him to tank overwatch but in one game it let my wyches assault without casualties and saved them from shooting, destroyed a squad and allowed them to consolidate and get to a transport. So knowing how it works really helps. I use a shatterdhard on my haemie quite often. Why. It removes from play ... there are no saves, no look out sirs. Anything under that template takes a toughness test. I have to position the haemie (not hard with DE) to get the special weapons, ICs etc., but I have done major damage with this 15 point weapon. I just need to know the rules. The template must hit the maximum number of targets, it is a one time use. I have taken down plasma guys, melta guys, missile guys with it. On a 6 you fail no matter how tough you are. My favorite was taking down an MC once. Sure, I was lucky but I took the chance.

And sry Fu. Did not mean that you did that assault move. Just related your story of what you read. I know you are way to smart for that crap. As to focus fire - you are correct. Sometimes an allied IC in a group is the model you want to focus fire on not the the group itself (i my example i wnted to avoid the IC tanking all the wounds). If you play for an example a Rune Priest attached to a grav bike squad you will want to see if you can set up to focus fire the priest away.

I agree with Egoray, our codex has some weaknesses some of them are not nearly as bad as thought. The trick to learning our codex is to use misdirection and mitigation, to force our opponent to think reactionary, make decisions and then punish him for it.

Dark Eldar is not a put on the table and win army. (aka GK in 5th, Crons early 6th)

To win we have to master list building, deployment, movement, shooting, and assault. The first 3 being the most important and hardest to learn. (oh my god i can't believe i'm writing this) Just practice with what you want to play with, identify strengths and weaknesses of each unit for yourselves and make sure that unit plays to its strengths every time it hits the table.

Also, for those of you who played MTG and remember "the stack" it's use can be used here! of course the only instant in the game right now is Gazzy's Waagh.

Very wise words guys!

EDITTED LIST: sept. 20
So tomorrow I have a game (FINALLY!!!). I've been slacking on my assembly/painting needs so I've decided to change up my last list I used some.

Here she is:

Archon (shadowfield, VB, huskblade, PGL)
4 Grots in a Raider (liquifier, aethersails)

2x 10 warriors (SC upgrade)
2x 5 wyches (HWG) in boats (shock prow and aethersails)

Razorwing (gonna try out the dissies instead of the lances)
2x Talos (SC, liquifier)

CWE Allies:
Spiritseer (no upgrades)
wraithguard with D-sythes in a wave serpent (holo fields)
wraithknight with wraithcannons


So there are several changes from last time:
No reavers, this is where a lot of my spare points comes from to invest.
I took away all the nightshield upgrades on my raiders...I either never use them or forget them in the end so why bother spending the points. I also dropped the wraithforge stone.

I spent these points on D-sythes, the razorwing and more upgrades for the archon because I didn't know where else to drop the points (25 points spent on soul trap, drugs and HWG).

The other option I have is to drop the huskblade and a couple of those upgrades and take an agoniser and take the wraithforge stone again.  How useful will it be to heal a wound on the knight...im not sure.

I have absolutely no idea what I will be playing. I feel like the list can deal with lots of things in terms of armor types. I really can't wait to try out my list with my wracks though. I really need to get my butt moving on doing the venom, haemie, and wracks...



Thoughts on my list?

I declare victory over the Crimson Fists!

So it was a good match but I started off rolling hot! My opponent fielded the following:

captain with the burning sword
assault termies in a stormraven (w/ captain)
dreadnought brought in by flyer
4 tactical squads, 2 of them in rhinos
command squad of 10 all loaded out with combigrav in a rhino
devestator squad with flakk missile launchers

So I chose my side and went first. First turn (night fight as well) i blew up both rhinos carrying the tacticals between my 3 lances and wraithknight's cannons. Due to explosions and such I kill a handful of marines sitting there using the rhinos as cover. Great first turn. I took some minor casualties, but turn 2 he wipes out both my talos...combigrav spam hurts. This wasn't good since it was big guns never tire.

However, I held fast and played for the objectives. My turns 2-3 weren't that great though i did wipe out a wide flanking units of tacticals camping an objective with my d-sythes

Other notable things that happenned during the game:
a raider with wyches attempted to ram the hovering stormraven when it came in and dumped the termies and captain off on the flank where most of our fighting was occurring. I fell short by half an inch (I had a ton of assaults fail by like 1/8 of an inch during the game). The termies on their turn assault the boat and wyches manage to only lose 1 model. I assault the termies my turn but fail to do anything and end up falling back with 2 wyches alive...important thing was that the termies wasted a turn on the boat.

Left overs of the termies and the captain assault my WK who has 3 wounds left. First round they tie dealing 2 wounds each to each other. Next phase I land two hits and instant kills the captain and the last termie! However, the captain manages to slay my WK at the same time, leaving all combatants dead!

Turn 5 the stormraven is in hover again and my wyches go over and HWG it to the ground, 2 nades hit...i rolled a 1 and 6...then another 6 to make it explode! I only lose all but 1 wych haha.

I won 12 VPs to 5 VPs in the end. I controlled 3 objectives, killed a heavy support, warlord, and first blood. My friend had 1 objective, and 2 heavy support killed off.

Everything played a great roll during the game. I can't wait to play with my new list I have planned once I have the models done.