A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

How did he wioe out both Talos with the one squad of combi-grav? Command squad does not have split fire does it? Otherwise good report. Sorry to hear that your shock prow failed you by half an inch though, lol. Happens( to me often).

I'm still waiting patiently for my FW order to arrive. In the mean time I've had to proxy up a list as I'm missing the FW models. All the rest is painted and assembled. I've got two practice games under my belt and I'm pleased with the list. It took apart a FMC list with ease but needed tweaking after a battle with Calgar/Tigerius - this is the tweaked list.

----SWIH----

185 - Rune Priest: Runic Axe; Runic Armour; Meltabombs; Plasma Pistol; Bike; JotWW/MH; Chooser of the Slain  --  Space Wolves 

255 - Chapter Master; Artificer Armour; Shield Eternal; Thunder Hammer; Auspex; Bike   --  Iron Hands 

145 - 5 Bikers: 2 Grav Rifles; Combi-Grav   --  Iron Hands
- i've written enough on this unit already. It can handle just about anything and it follows behind the pods looking for targets -

250 - 2x Dreadnought; Dual TL Autocannons; Smoke Launchers; Searchlight  -- Space Wolves
- I've been using rifledreads since 5th edition. They are still my favourite load out occupying opposite flanks and marching forward -

430 - 2x 10 Grey Hunter: 2 Meltaguns; Wolf Standard; Power Axe; Drop Pod  --  Space Wolves 

220 - 10 Grey Hunters: 2 Plasma Guns; Wolf Standard; Power Axe; Drop Pod  --  Space Wolves 
- My drop pod core is classic SW style. Dual melta pods drop first followed by plasma death -


140 - 2x 2 Hyperios Air Defense Batteries -- Space Wolves 
- They tear through Helldrakes and any other flyers and skimmers with ease. TL Str 8 and T6, W2.

215 - Contemptor Mortis Pattern Dreadnought: 2 Kheres Assault Cannons, Cyclone Missile Launcher   --  Iron Hands
- See above but even better with IWND, 5+ inv and AV13. -

----1850----

I have yet to play at 2000 but intend on adding this at that level ...

150 - 5 Tactical Squad; Flamer; Razorback; TL Assault Cannon - Iron Hands
- Why not a bit more dakka, a flamer to grab an objective, IWND razor and FNP troops. -

I designed the list to frighten Nec Scythe spam, Wave Serpent spam, DE skimmer lists, FMC lists, Heldrake spam, and MC heavy lists. How it will will handle some of the better balanced horde armies, the inevitable Tigerius and Calgar lists to come (I'm hoping my tweaks are enough to sway results in my favor), and some of the TauDar lists that are more static remains to be seen.

That said I'm also reworking my Urien list as well so I will have two armies to play with. I still like DelDar. I have to be honest though - my DelDar list has three raiders, a venom, a wave serpent and a crimson hunter. And two Talos. The SW list is designed to tear a list like that apart so I hope I don't face a clone with DelDar.

Egoray, you list scares me! 5th edition throwback?

-------------------

Haemonculi Liquifier/Shattershard
Haemonculi Liquifier/Dark Gate

11x 5 warriors in a Raider /w Nightshileds

5x Ravagers w/ Nightshields

2k

Here's this list that i may end up using for next year's tournament season (if they allow double Force org).

i think this list would do pretty good against FMC spam and mech heavy lists, possibly even flier spam.  I DO need to run some simulations against serpent spam and tau, i expect it do do well but wont know because there's none of those types of armies in my area.

"Dear god where did this come from?" this is an updated version of the Old Raider rush list back from the old dex!

I'm curious to try and switch out the warriors for wyches and see what it does.

Lemme Know!

I love the list. I really like Shattershard/Dark Gate too. Both can be useful. As we discussed in chat your biggest weakness will be Riptide spam. Still - such an interesting concept. It is very hard to take down 16 skimmers and 55 troops. Nice.

Yea so only one talos was beat down in one turn. The other one was hit by a grav gun from a tactical squad that managed to get away from my talos in assault. And I'm thinking SM have some latent possibilities that we are forgetting at times. They have krak and frag grenades everywhere. This makes assaulting with things like Talos and even WKs a little more disconcerting. Just remember that marines get these grenades when using them and facing them!

I like that list Eg, looks like a lot of fun it would ruin my day quite easily!

And psycheer, nice to see you post! That is a very very interesting list. Very simple but lots of power available. I could see you having issues against LR spam potentially or big drop pod lists as marines will get close quickly. Then again you have such remarkable target saturation its quite funny! I'd love to see how it works out

i think he can handle LR spam with 26 DLs. And no one has enough melta for 16 skimmers. Even three grav squads are going to take forever bringing them down. MCs are his biggest threat. Now myself I would drop one raider squad to put shock prows and aether sails on everything. But that is just me, lol.

the only trouble spots that i see is going to be spam of FMCs with decently good Invuln or FNP (dear god the bloodthirsty) or the Riptide.

I also worry about hordes, but hope they dont come back in season too quickly otherwise i'd have to adjust for them.

http://deathorgloryblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/dark-eldar-desperate-allies-choices.html

Worth a quick read. It seems DE players are pretty much tied down to only using Eldar as allies. Here are some thoughts to provoke different list construction.

I've thought about using SM for allies since I have lots of options. Very easy to introduce some more distractions for sure! Such as land raiders or termies...maybe even centurions if you kit them right based on what your army is. Hell even a thunderfire would be nice to throw some weight of anticover fire around the battlefield and at really good range as well!

Psychic defense is another option with the potential to run a cheap librarian. Other cheap characters are possible, but you could opt for the special characters like tiggy or some other guy. The key is to maximize some thing that your DE are missing.

In my eldar allies I generally lack hard hitting AT at range and anti low save guys...hence I take wraithknight and wraithguard with a serpent to deal out some more dakka to take on these kinds of issues. Since the SM dex is full of options I have a decent feeling you could make some nice specialzed small forces meant to bolster some weakness in a list.

Of course you have to be very aware of 'one eye open' so I'm not sure that I want a thunderfire close by the rest of my force. I would prefer units that have scout so I can place them more than 6" away at the start of the game or flyers coming in from reserves. Of course this will take some thought to decide what is best. One player on that thread suggests a DP ( either balesword or lash) and some infiltrating nurglings. This seems appropriate approach. I'm sticking to my Eldar as well for now but I'm going to keep an open mind.

I have been using Chaos Space Marines for my allies. Need to work out some kinks on how to deploy them but so far I am happy with them. Can tie up units as well as provide some good fire power when needed. Khorne types for my Kabal types, probably gonna use Nergle for my Coven list, and Dark Mechanius with my Kult.

I think 6" is pretty easy to manage for one unit as small as the thunderfire cannon. Obviously there are a lot of variables but I think its doable.

Here is a list I thought up yesterday:

Archon (PGL, huskblade, VB, shadowfield)
Haemie (liquifier, power axe)

Grots in a boat

2x 5 wyches with HWG in boats
2x 10 warriors with SC
Wracks (liquifier) in a venom

2x Talos (liquifier, SC)

MARINE ALLIES (ULTRAMARINES TACTICS)
Tiggy!
9 sternguard vets in either a pod or a rhino (leaning rhino so you can use the psychic powers right from start to protect the vets)
5 scouts in a LS-storm (w/ assault cannon)
Thunderfire cannon

=1850 pts

So I think this allied detachment would be a ton of fun. It builds off a core of DE units that I have found work well recently for me though I am adding my future wracks/haemie into as well.

The allies gives you a super unit (tiggy with the sternguard), a late capturing set of scouts since I would leave them in reserve...manipulated by tiggy, and a thunderfire because DE lacks what it brings to the table.  I personally couldn't field this list right now...need the storm and thunderfire...but if you guys think it looks fun I may grab those models for xmas for some fun to try with the DE and my marines

Just to expand on some of the silliness ... a friend is putting together an Ork list and asked about Imperial Armour and FW ork units. I thought , what Ork list could handle my DE. Or Ligs new list. Or Psycheer's Yacht Club list? So I proposed this. It is expensive as all get out to build but what fun it would be.

Krump a Rolla  

HQ:
95: KFF Mek w/ Grot Oiler, Eavy Armor
-105: Mekboy Junka w/ Deffrolla, 2x Grot Bomb Launchas, 3x Skorcha, 'Ard Case
95: KFF Mek w/ Grot Oiler, Eavy Armor
-105: Mekboy Junka w/ Deffrolla, 2x Grot Bomb Launchas, 3x Skorcha, 'Ard Case

Elites:
105: Mekboy Junka w/ Deffrolla, 2x Grot Bomb Launchas, 3x Skorcha, 'Ard Case
105: Mekboy Junka w/ Deffrolla, 2x Grot Bomb Launchas, 3x Skorcha, 'Ard Case
105: Mekboy Junka w/ Deffrolla, 2x Grot Bomb Launchas, 3x Skorcha, 'Ard Case

Troops:
98: 12 Spannaz w/ Shootas, Mekboy w/KMB
98: 12 Spannaz w/ Shootas, Mekboy w/KMB
98: 12 Spannaz w/ Shootas, Mekboy w/KMB
100: Deff Dread w/ 2x DCCWs, 2 Skorchas, Grot Riggas, Armour Plates  
100: Deff Dread w/ 2x DCCWs, 2 Skorchas, Grot Riggas, Armour Plates  

Fast Attack:
35: Grot Bomm Launcha
35: Grot Bomm Launcha
35: Grot Bomm Launcha

Heavy Support
60: Big Trakk w/ Deffrolla, 2x Big Shoota
60: Big Trakk w/ Deffrolla, 2x Big Shoota
60: Big Trakk w/ Deffrolla, 2x Big Shoota

(1500)

Take a close look at the number of skorchas, big shootas, grot bombs, rokkits and deffrollas in that list. It is putting out as much firepower as as Tau gunline. It is ridiculous to say the least. It has virtually no AA. But it will decimate ground forces. Are you brave enough to play it? If you are wondering this is only 1500 points. Hello Yacht Club ... let me introduce you to my grot bomms and deffrollas. It also easily scales down to as low as 1000 pts.

Big Mek gives the junka a 4+. Deffrollas are self explanatory. But you also get three flamers to fry infantry and on a 2+ it is fast. Those grot bombs can be used turn one and two. Str 8 heavy 1 blasts are always nice. You have eight of these guys to fire off with eight turbo vehicles with eight defrollas.

The deff rolla says that it causes d6 str 10 hits when it tank shocks. If the enemy elects to make a death or glory attack it takes another d6 str 10 hits. Woot with eight of them. Now the Grot bombs are only one use guess weapons that get to reroll their scatter - but still a range of 24" - 72" on turn one or two is nice. Just a heavy 1 blast though. In 6ed 'guess' is just barrage.

Now those junkas can go fast at any moment and deposit those spannaz anywhere. So first turn is whee the list hits hard. You fire off 13 grot bomms, try and get set for a second turen blitz with defrollas or 13 skorchas. As points increase you can beef up two of your Big Trakks with some heavier weapons (no longer a transport) and add another squad of spannaz. Fun and games. So changing one to:

150: Big Trakk w/ 2x Skorcha, Supa-Kannon (S9, AP3 Large Blast Ordnance, 60in range), Armour Plate, 'Ard Case, Deff Rolla, RPG
plus
98: 12 Spannaz w/ Shootas, Mekboy w/KMB

Brings you to 1750 ... god thing you take squads of Trakks ... so at 1750 you would have Nine deffrollas, Twenty-one skorchas, Thirteen grot bomms, plus some big shootas and a supa-kannon. Too bad Ork BS is so low, lol.

I AIN'T SCURRED! *pulls out toolbox of DE tricks*

pretty sure i can take it, but dear god those things are cheap!

Bear in mind that all those vehicles have meks or meks nearby to repair hull points and to give them the save and that three of those meks pack Kustom Mega Blastas in fast vehicles ( they go in the big trakks) .... but don't be SCURRED

i'm not really that worried, the repairing hull points seems like a gimmick to me. It can be useful, but i wouldn't suggest relying on it.

you're not going to deff rolla me on 1st turn, the only thing that would hurt me on that turn is the grot bombs, and i'll just deploy to take the hits.

would be a fun game, would definitely push me to my limit, i can still beat it.

So what is the TauDar list we have to fear? I'm not talking now about the four  Riptide Tau list that has been winning - I'll post that too. This is the other Tau list that is ripping it up. So how does a Yacht Club list do against these lists? How does a Urien fare? How woill Lig's list fare?  

Spiritseer 70
Farseer 100
5 x Wraithguard, Wraihcannons 160
Wave Serpent with SL , Holo feilds 135
2x 3 x Jetbikes 102
Wraithknight 240
7 Warp Spiders 133
5x Dark Reapers, Starshot missiles ,Exarch,  Fast Shot, EML, Flakk 212
Wave Serpent with SL , Holo feilds 135
ADL with Quad Gun 100

Commander 85
SS: MSSS PEN C&CN Stim inj  Iridium armour Neuro web jammer VRT, 2 Sheild drones 177

6 Fire Warriors 54

Riptide with IA, Twin PF, EWO 190

what is the hulabaloo

The Tau commander is what makes the Dark Reapers work, without him they are to fragile and less effective.He gives then T5 4W 2+ tanking of shots, rerolls to hit in the shooting phase if you don't want to guide them, ignores cover (the big one) and Tank hunters or Monster hunters or stubborn if they do get put into melee.

The Wraithknight follows the Riptide and gets a decent save and also blocks access to the Reapers. The Warp Spiders are probably the weakest link - often shot down - but useful today to thwart those grav gun bikers. Wraithguard are a solid scoring troop - the extra wave serpent can be cover for thee Reapers turn one before they position and fire. Generally it is fielded empty. The list puts out a lot of damage.

So expect to face a similar list with your DelDar.

This is the 4 'Tide list ripping it up ...

Hq Farsight
O’vesa (Riptide)
3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3, missile podx3
10 kroot w hound
1 crisis suit, flamer, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override, positional relay
Riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, 2 shielded missile drones, talisman of arthas moloch
Skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter

Commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, neuroweb system jammer
10 kroot w hound

No need to explain this. It is just pure nasty.


So what strategies will you employ?

For the first list: Sure the dark reapers are good, but the thing about this list is that its just full of good units...riptide, WK, WG, WS's, etc... That makes it very hard to kill as target priority is a full on issue. My list would certainly have a ton of problems with the list...of course that list is also at 2k points and thus leaves me with 150 more points to work with.  If I took space marines, I think I could make short work of that list with the use of grav guns...if I took my Eldar allies I would have a more uphill battle for sure as the list itself has the same units I use!

If I went 2k and used marines... I'd use my own deathstar I talked about previously to do some hefty damage or at least distract from the rest of my army....that unit would be centurions in a land raider with tigarus. Using grav guns I'd probably kill any one of those big guys in a turn or very close to it. WK doesn't have an invuln and the riptide will have to use that nova thing to get his of course. Using reroll hits, 4++ and ignore cover I could rip through the big creatures and let the rest of my army do its job. 2k points certainly allows me a lot of access to big space marine ally choices for sure. Of course I would need to be careful with the allying with dark eldar part but thats managable.  DE-DAR I would probably take more poison...maybe hellions or reavers and use them to kill out what I could and tie things up in combat for a turn or 2 just to give my army time to work.


I think we will start to see less of that second list as marines take their place and grav guns get some love...I saw what they can do...something that can wound you that easy and have AP2 just hurts the big bad MCs. The first list is very versatile which I like, but if you concentrate on the right things at the right time, there is a chance of survival.

Here is the issue. You are talking about tailoring your list. I'm talking about using your TAC list that you would normally take to a tournament and beating any of these lists. There are solutions for Deldar against 4 Riptides. Venom spam would hurt Riptides a lot. Poison kills Riptides. Distort kills Riptides. A Shard of Anurus, a Hexrifle, Huskblade or Flesh Gauntlets kills Riptides. Simple. DelDar can beat these lists without many compromises. We can build a list to take these lists on without compromising out core lists. Well, i do not want to completely overhaul a list that works well in a TAC environemnt but I can make a few changes. A squad of five Wraithguard expect to do 2.68 wounds, and have about a 33% chance of killing a riptide. A single Venom will put on average 4.5 wounds on any target it shoots at regardless of its toughness value. So combined these two units would shore up my MC defense quite a bit. The warp spider squad on its own can kill a riptide. All of these uniyts are still good at other tasks so I will not lose anything with teir inclusion.

Would my list the way it stands have problems. Yes. If I do expect to see bike squads, riptides, ADL, I probably should add some Venoms to my list as a start fragile as they may be. I might have to reconsider my Talos. I love my Talos but are they right for the meta? These are the questions I need to ask myself. So I can take my Urien list and adjust it.

Urien Is Still Uber

Urien Rakarth 190
4 Uber Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Raider, Disintegrator, Nightshields 275

3x 3 Wracks, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields 315
5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, Disentegrator, Nightshields 135

Iyanden Spiritseer, Spear of Teuthlas 85 (all WG have battle focus)

5 Wraithguard, Wraithcannons, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields 305
5 Wraithguard, D-scythes, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields 355

10 Warp Spiders 190

(1850)

So what is the plan? Nightshields will allow me to out range of many of the weapons currently in use. For De to win we must rely on mobility, positioning and target priority. This list can be aggressive or it can play patiently if need be. I can tear apart a list by waiting for my opponent to come at me and then responding in force. I have enough distort weaponry and poison to hurt most units in the game. So I must be clever at how I deploy and advance. Once I have weakened my opponent i can let my cc hammer go to work. I did a test of this list last night and it performed well against a rather strange White Scars/IGlist. Lots of grav bikes backed by a vendetta and ground forces with a lot of heavy weapons throughout.  It had plenty of speed to combat my units so I could not rely on my nightshields to save me ( I'm sure they will be handy in the future though). Still my mobility helped me reposition to favorable spots quickly and I eliminated the key threats as quickly as I could. It was a close match up.


I'll keep this basic core. I still have seven vehicles to pump out some serious dakka. I have AT, and AI and MC defense. I can handle bikes. The list relies on good positioning but then what DE list does not? The problem here will not be the riptides. The problem will be the rest of the Tau list. There are a over a 1000 points of Tau I'll need to deal with other than the 'tides. So turns one and two I will have to avoid those 'tides if possible and focus on marker lights and long range weapons that can hurt me. I might target but one 'tide - opportunity arising - turn one and two. Defeating Tau you need to rely on hiding behind terrain, using your mobility, judging ranges well. We shall see.

I need to stay out of range of everything I'm not currently firing at, focus fire and try to turn the flank if that option is open. He will most certainly in a Tau list be bolstering his Riptides with Broadsides. marker lights and troops. They can rip a hole in my force if I ignore them. TBut I have range on them at that is the key to this list. I can focus fire and fold any flank with consistency after taking out the primary threats. Is it enough? I'm not sure. Some Tau/Dar lists are just plain nasty with no overt weaknesses. But then DE never was designed to be easy to play.

It may be list tailoring but I feel that overall it becomes a TAC list due to all the MCs and eldar skimmers out there. That's just my opinion though.

Thanks to multiple hobbies and traveling on some weekends, I haven't done anything with my models lately. New Magic set has my attention lately. I'll keep you guys updated though!

This cute little number where everything runs up the table like lightning needs a thread of its own. The list can be adjusted to fit in the Baron but I don't think it really is necessary.

FUEGAN WALL 1850

Fuegan 220
4 Spirit Seers, Wraithstone Forge, Spear of Teuthlas  325

7 Wraithguard, D-scythes 294
7 Wraithguard, Wraithcannons 224
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102

6 Warp Spiders 114

2x Wraithlord, 2 Flamers, 2 Brightlances, Ghostglaive 330
Wraithknight, 240

---
3 Windrider Bikes 51 (behind Aegis)
ADL, Quad Autoccanons
--- 2000 ---

Hope for renewer/battle focus combo on the WGs and WLs. If quicken is rolled take it. This guys will be moving down the table with speed. Fuegan is a great Phoenix lord. Good save, great weapons, nifty little abilities (fast shot and split fire). He may be my favotite. With renew he is an absolute beast. The Phoenix Lordmakes it tick. He will tank shots and he will renew his wounds and every wound makes him that much more of a threat. The unit is quite fast.It is more than possible to get quicken, renewer and battle focus on the unit. Now, you will sometimes not get your psychic power off. But the odds are good to keep the wall functioning.

I was privileged to play against this list with my SW/IH list. Since I had helped my buddy design the list and had loaned him ten of my WG I wanted to see it in action. With renewer rolled it was so hard to stop his main blob from moving around and mowing down everything. Also the guide/prescience on WLs and wraithcannon WG was plain nasty. I hope this does not become a popular build because it is no fun to play against. With battle focus there was no way I could get to his wraithcannons and assault them. He always had his d-scythes in front.

As well once those WLs got close he was able to get into flamer range with ease - all that AP2 was painful as well. I had some grav in my list but using it  (on my bike squad) was not that easy. First those WLs are characters and can precision shoot. They pick off your heavy weapons easily. He made sure his WG were not the closest models - he put Fuegan and Seers in front - and let Fuegan take the odd wound to renew and beef him up. All in all not an easy list to play against. Who would have thought footdar has its place still.

Finally, we made one adjustment to the Fuegan list. After we finished our game I discussed the list with my buddy (I helped him design the original after all) - and we fit in a WK to really push opponents back. It is bad enough having to deal with d-scythes but having a powerful MC fronting or flanking them that can also renew wounds is terrifying. The WK is also very mobile and does not need battle focus at all. We lost a few spiders to make the change but, meh, it is worth it. The WK is a hero hammer unit. It can tar pit a screamer star (takes on average two wounds a turn and it can be healed), it is excellent in cc and assaulting vehicles ( they need to get close and personal at times) and really presents a constant threat that takes a lot of heat off your WLs - this can prove costly to your opponent.

And finally - Warp Spiders are insanely fast with a great JSJ move making them very difficult to target and take out. This squad was a royal thorn in my side until I finally decided it needed to be dealt with.

There are two keys to winning in 6ed. You need to have troops that cover 40"+ late game ( jetbikes) and you need to learn that the key to winning in 6th edition is to go second in just about every game except kill points. Keep this mind and the list performs extremely well.

Fun looking list for sure and looks like it scales into 2k fairly nicely though I'm not sure why you went with a ADL when you should be very mobile.

I'm more curious about the two tenants you suggest at the end of your post. Here you suggest two key points to winning in 6th: massive distance covering units and going 2nd. I agree and disagree with both to some extent. I think there is more to it then that.

Massive movement units (MMUs) like jetbikes, skimmers, etc are exceptionally useful for capturing points late game. However, its not as easy as you need to have these units survive to those turns. Whether you use reserve manipulation or hold them back you need to ensure they survive...of course by doing this you hold back some of your forces which can make things interesting in determining how to use those units in the meantime. MMUs also have the issue of unknown game length...you make that turn 5 turbo for an objective and then bam turn 6. You get assaulted or shot to death...and you could be in deep crap! So while I understand the uses of such a unit it does have its drawbacks. These can be subsided if spammed like the almighty eldar can...as it gives you back up units.

So while I think this is super useful I don't think its necessarily needed to win games. If anything you need the ability to wipe out units like this. Eldar are allied a lot for those jetbikes, having some means to take care of those units is something that is needed in a list.

The second point that Eg suggests is the most interesting point...going 2nd. Useful for armies who need to get close for sure...however this assumes your opponent will move around which most armies will do though probably not so much gunline IG and tau. I think this comes down to your list and how it operates...alpha strike strike likes going first...especially those with barrage ordnance. Thus, I don't agree with this suggestion as I think it depends on your army. Personally, my army has done well going first or 2nd recently.

I mentioned that in kill point missions I would want to go first. Now I rarely play an alpha strike list ... nightfight on in a lot of missions, reserves, and other factors hinder this approach. That is not to say I 'never' play one. I do have a SW drop pod list I pull off the shelf on occasion. But even that functions fine going second. In fact with a gun pod list you foten want your opponent to set first. Of course, you can win going first. But going second in most missions gives you an advantage that I want if open.

Now this is a tricky subject. At nova the lists that went second won four times more games then the lists that went first. However, playing daemons, nids etc., you do want your psychic powers up - iron arm, grimoire. So going second is more of a risk. If like a lot of players today you are using eldar jetbikes, white scar bikes, WKs, you can use going second to contest or hold objectives and to score linebreaker. In a tournament setting not all the games go the distance either so going second becomes even better.

A lot will depend on terrain and whether or not you have the range to do some damage first turn. This much is obvious. However, I was basing my observation on this thread - we are playing DelDar here mostly. Now i no longer have a guaranteed fortune so that is not an issue. When I could have fortune going first was near mandatory. Wave Serpents have range if you are willing to let those shields down - not always something I want to do. DE do not need to go first but they are fragile and if they are against another equally mobi;le army, do not have good cover terrain then going first is quite beneficial. However they usually will be hidden behind wave serpents and cover so ...  

In a tournament setting you know the last turn. That being said, generally I prefer to go second. This means that I can go second and deploy to best counter my opponent's deployment. As well reserves I have can counter my opponent's plans and I have the last word in objective games. When playing a mixed list - both wave serpents and venoms - i can put venoms in reserve.

This is a subject that I hope others will respond to. It is not that transparent at all.

So finally a decent test for my Urien list.

army lists

Urien Is Still Uber

Urien Rakarth 190
4 Uber Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Raider, Disintegrator, Grisly Trophy, Aether Sails, Nightshields 285

3x 3 Wracks, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields 315

Iyanden Spiritseer, Wraithstone Forge 100  (all WG have battle focus)

5 Wraithguard, Wraithcannons, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields 305
5 Wraithguard, D-scythes, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields 355

Wraithknight, Scattershield, Suncannon, Scatter Laser 300

I did not get a copy of his list but from memory

Raven'O

3 Tides

3 teams Crisis as troops
Fw coming in from reserve

Pathfinders (two squads)

Broadside units - squad coming in from reserve one on table.

match synopsis

The game went quite well for me. First of all I played a crush one flank game and I went first (this was really good as I got both jink and nightshields. I maintained decent range to minimize retaliation. I only needed one Venom to take out the AGL - that was very nice. So I let the pathfinders have it with my disentegrator and another venom ... raiders on both flanks, fired my serpents at the crisis. One crisis squad fled. The other two held - well one was not fired on. My Wraithknight and two other venoms fired on a Riptide who fell back. I then had to weather return fire ... this was pretty brutal ... lost a venom .. was too close ... had a few hull points taken off a wave serpent, and lost a wound on my WK despite having shields. It was not enough for my opponent to win the game. Not even close. He had broadsides coming in from reserves but there was no AGL anymore. He had lost most of his pathfinders, his crisis and at least one maybe two Riptides were going to get it. I started by going after the crisis ... no troops no win. Boy is it easy to make crisis flee. By the end of my turn I had one riptide down, one badly injured and about to go in assault with my WK. I had my grots and urien in cc with Broadsides ... they went. Now I knew he could target the Urien FNP/FC squad. He could also target the wraithguard squads ... but what then? I still had more than enough firepower to take him out and still had scoring troops with battle focus (on WG) and speed with the wracks ( two squads remained ). I already had first blood and linebreaker. This was just the bottom of turn two! He got the crisis and FW to come in and took out a lot of my grot squad. Just Urien and a grot remained. He  took out a few WG but failed to finish off a squad. That was it. On the top of turn three I went after the wounded Riptide and the remaining crisis and fired my WK at the fw and charged. On the bottom of his turn three he had broadsides, a riptide, a few firewarriors left. Serious damage had been done. He felt he had one push left ... he assaulted my wrack venom with the tide and destroyed it. The broadsides did not dent the wave serpents. He conceded before the start of my turn four. It was almost too easy. Crisis are a liability. Disentegrators and splinter cannons and distort really hurt riptides but they also do a number on everything else in his list. I did lose some squads and transports ... but it was reasonable losses .. I did need to get him to move out into range and I expected a venom or two or my raider or two to go down. I lost three transports by game end. Two venoms and a raider. Not terrible. I look a few wounds on my WK and lost most of one WG squad. I lost most of my grots. I on the other hands I had taken out his troops, his pathfinders, two riptides and his commander, his broadsides and his AGL. It was almost over before it started.

keys to victory

AP2 is nice indeed. Poison combined with AP2 is even better.  don't bother with lances. a round of Disintegrator cannons will make a believer out of people. I'm pleased at the outcome. Three Riptides are scary but only for the first round, assuming you have a plan for them. Crisis teamsreally are not the heartiest of troops. The way you need to use them also puts them in peril. Still, against some forces, this Triple Tide list would just roll to victory. Good target priority really helped me. I had enough to really pressure him. Mobility wins games if you measure your range. Nightshields are a pain for Tau if those markers are neutralized. Yes, Tau is beatable.

That's all for now folks.

Congrats Eg! Thats awesome you handled that list very well. I will be playing a game tomorrow or saturday I believe and boy do I plan on changing things up! I'm going to take SM allies

SM allies you say?!?!? Yup I'm looking for an excuse to screw around with the new marines and my DE all at the same time!

Here's my list (and bc I haven't done any modeling I'll be doing some proxy stuff):
Archon (huskblade, VB, shadow field)
Haemonculus (VB, liquifier)
Grots (4 of them with a liquifier) in a boat
2x 10 warriors (SC)
5 wracks with liquifier in a venom (dual SC)
2x 5 wyches (HWG) in boats
2x Talos (SC, liquifier)

SM Allies (ULTRAMARINES):
Tigarus
8x Sternguard in a Rhino
2x 5 marines with gravgun in HB razorbacks


So this is vastly different than my old lists though the DE portion is my planned primary detachment no matter what allies I take at this time. The marines will be going for an opposite flank to get away from my DE so we don't have any issues. They have the ability to lay down some good firepower against infantry and also has the ability to take forward objectives. I think it will be fun.

@ ligs: are grav guns really worth it with so little amounts? They're shiny, but wouldn't a Melta or plasma give you more utility in the long run?

ok Gents!

Here's my first Eldar Dark Eldar list.  i'd like to see what you guys think.

Farseer, bike, spear.

2x 7 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

WraithKnight

Baron
Haemonculi w/ Shattershard

2x 5 wyches w/ HWG in Venoms w/ NS, Cannon
7 wyches w/ HWG hek upgrade w/ VB in raider with NS

4x Beastmasters 8 Kymerae, 4 Razorwings
9 Reavers 3 blasters

just shy of 1850 pts.

So... yea... The main idea was to present as many high priority threats as i can.  The main issues that i see that I would have problems with is 'Ignore's cover' *coughcoughcough nerf cough* combined with an opponent that can see through my silly games.  I think it could do well, definitly looks to me to give yacht club a run for it's money.

NEWS TEAM! Critique!