A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Duck- congrats on the win! I like your army, it includes several elements I would consider staples for my own CSM concept list. I say the nurgle sorc is, in general, slightly better than huron although hes one of my personal favs.

One thing though, MoK characters can't join MoN spawns..



Unorthodoxy- Love the NL theme. One of my all time favorite founding chapters. I especially like Konrad aka batman/wolverine/assassin. Your build feels appropriate, particularly the lords kit and those crazy raptor units.
Edit- I feel like the icon of despair is so appropriate on those raptors. That said fearless icons would be really nice there too. Just a thought.
Edit Edit- on second thought why not make one detachment crimson slaughter? You gain fear for free on all your night lords (and thus can take fearless icon) AND access to the daemonheart! Hmmm you really have me thinking on those raptor units now. I dig em!

On both lists I see lone mutilators.. what gives? SnP is pretty bad so I assume they DS?


If I were to actually model CSM it would be a Khornate warband, and I'm pretty sure it would start with the AoBF psychopath on jug + spawns. Even the eternal chapter master doesn't survive this guy.

BUT, my second take would have to be Kharn!! Yes, the Betrayer. bear with me because this isn't just for fluff guys.. you see Kharn is actually the best tool CSM has for killing imperial knights. Whut? you say. Yes 7 x S7 ARMOURBANE attacks hitting on rerollable 2's at init 5. He kills...  Everything.


Kharn with 24 cultists inside a spartan with quad las and ceramite bearing down is a nasty nasty thing. Especially flanked by dual lasher tendrils maulers.

Kharn is a beast no doubt and a possibility. So is Ahriman good. But the list I played fed on the sorcerer powers as well as divination. And yes we both like Mutilators although I like Maulerfiends as well. And it should be no mark at all on the spawn and extra deamonettes of course. It was a misprinted list from when I used to squads of spawn.

Brom wrote:

Unorthodoxy- Love the NL theme...Your build feels appropriate, particularly the lords kit and those crazy raptor units.
Edit- I feel like the icon of despair is so appropriate on those raptors. That said fearless icons would be really nice there too. Just a thought.
Edit Edit- on second thought why not make one detachment crimson slaughter? You gain fear for free on all your night lords (and thus can take fearless icon) AND access to the daemonheart! Hmmm you really have me thinking on those raptor units now. I dig em!

On both lists I see lone mutilators.. what gives? SnP is pretty bad so I assume they DS?


If I were to actually model CSM it would be a Khornate warband, and I'm pretty sure it would start with the AoBF psychopath on jug + spawns. Even the eternal chapter master doesn't survive this guy.

BUT, my second take would have to be Kharn!! Yes, the Betrayer. bear with me because this isn't just for fluff guys.. you see Kharn is actually the best tool CSM has for killing imperial knights. Whut? you say. Yes 7 x S7 ARMOURBANE attacks hitting on rerollable 2's at init 5. He kills...  Everything.


Kharn with 24 cultists inside a spartan with quad las and ceramite bearing down is a nasty nasty thing. Especially flanked by dual lasher tendrils maulers.

Well the Raptors have Fear to begin with.  Don't know if you were aware?
The Eye of Night is simply too good not to take.  It is ridiculous (and uber expensive becaue of it), forces Wave spam to spread the F out or pay the consequences and of course against Sqaudrons?  Very very good also.  Makes singling targets out easier and makes wreckage more effective for LOS blocking because of the geometryof the spread o nthe vehicles when they die.  Consider that the more spread out, the easier to limit who and how many can fire back at your Obliterator for example.  There is almost nothing in the game better at getting you a chance at first blood and disrupting the enemy deployment.  It's got all kinds of virtue but when it goes off, its just like "Dayam...  that was awesome".  Now if the enemy hasn't got armor, its MUCH less effective.  but even then it ignores cover so...  Yeah Black Legion was definitely a very intentional choice.  They are the ones who get the Eye of Night.

There's an idea that does NOT get traction in 40K list building.  I call it Ablation.  You can call it something else.  Regardless, the idea is simple:  If I see myself as on the defensive, one of my major goals is to get the enemy to expend as MUCH resource as possible to kill as LITTLE resource as possible of my force.  The question forthe General is not to recognize that its true so much as plan for how to execute it.  

So in this plan, what's happening is Im presenting you with an obvious target that is extremely hard to kill.  Then Im providing you quite suddenly, NUMEROUS threats.  The trouble with them is that ANY of them will cause much more damage than they will ever take.  So lets pretend you are facing Wave Spam.  Two Mutilators and two obliterators DS next to them.  One of the Obliterators nukes a Transport.  The Raptors advance and cannot now be stopped from charging plus block egress for the Wave Serpents.  

Now its the Eldars turn.  What we want is for them to pour 120-500 points into trying to kill...61 points.  Failure means they lose four wave serpents and must try again.  Can you see the massive conundrum that creates?  Do you think I care a LOT whether the Mutilator takes it to the face?  Not as long as he absorbs EXCESSIVE enemy resources.  

Now the enemy could fight the impulse and try to kill the much more valuable Raptors... But...  they are very hard to kill, Rhinos in the way...  and this DOES assure the destruction of their Wave Spam.  Are a few Raptor kills worth the lose of 500 points in vehicles?  pretty much never.  The BEST answer when you're faced with the Kobayashi Maru scenario is to cheat.  Given that this wont be tolerated in our community, they are going to have to flee at maximum speed using Eldar speediness...  or they are in big trouble.  Even This doesn't guarantee their life since the Raptors will reach some of them.  But it does reduce the risk at considrable cost to the Eldar firepower that turn.  

Its the ultimate target saturation strategy using incredibly affordable units to pull it off.

egorey wrote:

Kharn is a beast no doubt and a possibility. So is Ahriman good. But the list I played fed on the sorcerer powers as well as divination. And yes we both like Mutilators although I like Maulerfiends as well. And it should be no mark at all on the spawn and extra deamonettes of course. It was a misprinted list from when I used to squads of spawn.

Gotcha, I do the same thing since I keep all my lists on excel.

Quote :

Well the Raptors have Fear to begin with.  Don't know if you were aware?

Nope completely missed it. Thats a great perk and totally fitting for night lords.

After delving into your list further I gotta say I love what you have going on man. I am aware of the power of the eye of night btw. Those two relics are THE reason to take BL supplement IMO. I've theory crafted with them several times but nothing more.

Curious though, why not pure BL and take last memory? I actually messed with a night lords list after reading the series and as adverse as they are to psykers it prompted me to roll up a ML 4 sorcerer with JP and last memory. I just like the idea of dropping in and smoking/blinding everyone in a 36" radius. Think daemons or podded marines or orks etc.. lots of potential there. The other fringe benefit is one or more of those 3 CSM units could be special weapon carrying chosen as troops. IDK I'm sure you have your reasons, probably votlw cost, just curious. Either way sweet list.

Although my list and J's list are quite different in makeup we are both aiming for the same thing. Disruption and confusion. I use single Fiends and a Mutie, Deamonettes and Oblits dropping in and psychic buffs to cause confusion ... it worked very well for me. Now I have eight units that can hurt you if left unchecked. Not as many as in J's list but enough to cause my opponent to rethink his strategy.  J's list is quite heavy on AT less so on AI mine the opposite as I like cc more but our units can function as either if needed. I use flamers J likes meltas. I find krak and meltabombs do the trick nicely so I keep my flamers. I prescience my Oblits and give invisibility to spawn when i can but the powers are flexible enough to used multiple ways. My only beef is that so many powers that are good are WC 2 now. J's relies on relics more and divination and telepathy are not as fundamental to his list. My list is riskier as I can fail a psychic power and do when most needed at times. But in practice we are both aiming to achieve similar goals.

I have more objective secured troops in my list but in 7ed I'm finding this is not as critical as it was in 6ed. As long as you can destroy whatever OS troops are contesting (and J's list is capable of such) you are still okay. My issue has always been Wave Serpents.  OS Wave Serpents are just silly so you need answers. I also need answers for IKs ... these are issues you need to consider carefully when designing your lists ... I find the psychic buffs indispensable in my build. I love my LoC. My opponents hate it and it rarely lasts the whole game  but that is fine if its drawing massive ammounts of dakka away from the rest off the list.

Notice too that both lists just want to survive the first two turns. Once we get past turn one we begin causing problems turn two and escalate from there. An opponent needs to recognize that he must get aggressive early - Eldar lists tend to sit back and that is often a death knell against a fast DSing Chaos list. I want you sitting back turn one.

I agree on OS and I can see your lists build pressure due to the deep striking elements. What I can't see is why neither list has a spell familiar. The amount of power this little gem brings to a psyker is nuts. People splash into CSM from DoC simply for this 15 pt item.

Points are tight.  And with so little psyker power to sling anyways...  tough to justify.  The sorcerer is there and hes useful on occassion. Why not totally Black Legion? They cost more. I have a black legion army but its only on paper. I dont play it.

Last Memory of Yranthos is cool. Thought a daemon prince could really lead that force to some victories.

I was playing with the sorcerer build for the first time. I would certainly have a spell familiar the next time. You could easily drop the key for one as the key - although potentially useful - does not have the insurance of a spell familiar. I simply did not have the model for one and never used it. Should have stuck a gretchin on the sorc base to proxy lol. If I play the list again it will change. I loved my lone Mutilator and would add another. I would have liked the extra rhino as well. So it would play like this ...

Juggy Lord, MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VotLW
Chaos Sorcerer, Force Sword, Lvl 3, Spell Familiar, Sigil, Bike (telepathy)
Mutilator, MoT
Mutilator, MoT
CSM, Flamer, Champion, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster
CSM, Flamer, Champion, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster
10 Chaos Cultists
5 Chaos Spawn
Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
3 Obliterators,  MoN

Lord of Change, Lvl 3, 2 Greater Rewards (divination)
17 Deamonetttes

I liked the CSM squad but really a pair of MSU squads are better. I lost my rhino way too early in the game. Having a bit of redundancy would have been nice since they do shield my Fiends. I don't mind opponents wasting dakka on them at all.

I agree, without combat squads MSU is the better choice usually. I Gotta say though I feel like I've been missing out on mutilators this whole time. They're like cheaper lone wolves, can't believe I overlooked them. Great innovation you guys.

I would really like to see a batrep on the night lords at some point. I find that list very intriguing because its in theme but still done well, better than what loyalists could hope to emulate in fact which is rare.

The point of this blog thread is to illustrate what is often overlooked. I had mentioned earlier that we needed to really take a look at the psychic buffs available to different armies and also that CSM/Daemons had potential. The list tried to push both points forward. I will playing again in about a week and half fielding a 1500 list using the same basic template. At 1500 the list is actually quite a bit tougher to handle in some ways. I drop the Fiends, one Daemonette and use a Lvl 2 sorcerer. I'll certainly miss the fiends but the list will function fine with solo Muties and Oblits. I'll have more than enough threats on the table turn two and three to cause problems.

Brom wrote:

I Gotta say though I feel like I've been missing out on mutilators this whole time. They're like cheaper lone wolves, can't believe I overlooked them. Great innovation you guys.

I would really like to see a batrep on the night lords at some point. I find that list very intriguing because its in theme but still done well, better than what loyalists could hope to emulate in fact which is rare.

You mean like this earlier version of the lists batrep vs Wave Spam:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/02/battle-report-mechdar-vs-night-lords.html

or This, using an even earlier version:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/night-lordsattack.html

I have been developing the list for a while, slowly learning what i NEED TO KNOW TO MASTER IT. And now I think I have. bwa hahahahahahaha.

Thats hilarious. We three evil geniuses.. and yes just like those thanks. I can see from the reports your army has evolved quite a bit and I like the current incarnation best by far. The eye of night showcased itself perfectly and even the deep striking lone daemons were really flexible. I would imagine you've moved away from DS with the raptors as the default plan though. Just too much risk they dont turn up and even if they do thats a turn 3 assault at best.

Anyway I am totally going to use the solo mutilators idea. I have a friend who worships night lords and I think he may even pick up chaos because of some ideas around here. In the mean time I may proxy this up for a test run:


Warband of the Betrayer

HQ
kharn the betrayer 160
khorne lord, mok, votlw, juggernaut, sigil, axe of blind fury 175

ELITES
1 mutilator, mon 61
1 mutilator, mon 61
1 mutilator, mon 61

TROOPS
18 cultists, 17 autoguns 99
5 chaos marines, flamer 80

FA
7 khorne bikers, mok, 2 mgs- icon of wrath, champ- p.axe 214
7 khorne bikers, mok, 2 mgs- icon of wrath, champ- p.axe 214
5 spawn 150

HS
chaos spartan, tl quad las, tlhb, ceramite 305
mauler fiend, lasher tendrils 135
mauler fiend, lasher tendrils 135

TOTAL 1850

6 assault units moving 12" fully 4 of which are intensely high pressure- all fleeting or equivalent all furious charge where it matters. The lowliest of the bunch packs 5 x S6 ap2 attacks.
Then the capstone- 3 mutilators to DS with chainfists. Cultists can bubble wrap when needed like vs DPA armies where at least some of the mutilators will start on the board making for hard decisions. Strangely enough there are multiple elements in this list that can deal with imperial knights quite effectively IN COMBAT between kharn and multiple lasher tendrils which also allows mutilators a shot if they can catch one. Thoughts?

*List edited based on input

Yeah I no longer DS them very often. I do when there are easy wide open spaces or if the enemy is ALSO playing null deployment. Its useful then to DS.

That is a fast army.  Not sure about that Spartan.  Not as familiar with it.

Gonna be honest...  Id replace those Cultists with marines (like 5 of them).  It'll be worth the change in LD, and survivability (plus they just reserve anyways right?), plus it allows Rhinos to hide your approaching force behind like i was trying to exhort Duck to do for his Maulerfiends.  Don't ever overestimate your saving throws.  Best plan is not to be there when the punch lands.  Couple Rhinos to conceal you is advisable.  In Night Fight its really useful especially when you cant go first.  And that's half your games.  Plus do you want first blood to be a Rhino...or your Maulerfiend?

As for your friend who loves night Lords:  My list looks and plays like a True Night Lord force and the actual results have been somewhat spectacular.  Feel free to outright steal ideas.  There's definitely nothing wrong with it.  Just make sure your own style of play allows you to utilize the tools at hand.  A lot of good lists never get tried for style reasons and thats okay.  A list is great.  A General can be greater.

The spartan is essentially a bigger land raider.. assault vehicle, av14, capacity 25, 4 tl las cannons no extra dice for melta, 5 hp. I was thinking it would give cover to the fiends t1 going second. A rhino would be a detriment here I believe because of FB which I prioritize highest every game.

The second set of cultists could easily be marines. Just lose the flamers and 5 autoguns.. which arent terrible though. That unit shoots about like 9 swooping hawks and I mow units down with my hawks.

Losing a Rhino is no biggee. Just an opinion. 3 Hull points can cost an enemy a good 300 points or more to kill.

We were discussing Kharn in chat. There was an erroneoous assupption that you could deny any psychic power on a 2+ roll if Kharn was in the list. If you read the BRB page 26 you will see it does not work that way with Kharn. Only those powers that target his unit are denied on a 2+. If all powers were denied on a 2+ he would be in every list.

That said he is still an awesome beatstick with seven AP2 attacks on the charge and the ability to take out AI and AT with ease. Just have to get him there.

egorey wrote:

That said he is still an awesome beatstick with seven AP2 attacks on the charge and the ability to take out AI and AT with ease. Just have to get him there.

Don't forget, he's like the only model I know of that hits on 2's in melee.

And rerolls. Yes we know Kharn can be good. But beat sticks in most CSM lists are not a problem. He can take out an IK though a WK or a Riptide. Just get him there. I look at the meta and think of what I want answers for in my lists ... now I like Brom's list - I would not use Kharn myself. I like Maulerfiends as well but I would miss the Oblits which IMHO are the best HS slot we have. You have the FW tank in there which is good though. So maybe can forgo them.

IKs, Lows (where allowed) Wave Serpents, FMCs, Skyrays, Broadsides, Necron Barges and Flyers maybe Venoms, etc. Chaos does not have a lot of answers to these. So my next test will certainly include a model I've not used in the list yet ...

Heldrake w/ Hades Autocaanon - I do not need a baleflamer. I cankill one wound models without that kind of help. But Heldrake can take out two skimmers a turn or an IK. It can and should be twin-linked by your LoC. A 1500 list could like something like this:

HQ: Juggy Lord, MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VotLW 175
HQ: Lord of Change, Lvl 3, 2 Greater Rewards 295 (divination)

Elite: Mutilator, MoT 63
Elite: Mutilator, MoT 63

Troop: 5 CSM, Flamer, Champion, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster  115
Troop: 5 CSM, Flamer, Champion, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster  115
Troop: 14 Deamonetttes of Slaanesh 126

FA: 5 Chaos Spawn 150
FA: Heldrake, Hades Autocannon 170

HS: Obliterator,  MoN 76
HS: Obliterator,  MoN 76
HS: Obliterator,  MoN 76

List has enough divination to make life difficult ... just enough. The LoC and the Heldrake combo present a problem for many lists and if your opponent chooses to focus on them that is okay. He will waste a lot of dakka taking them down and the rest of the list will have some fun.

Hes mean. Hard to maximize his use sometimes. But dangerous

So my next test is against this:

Librarian Lvl 2
5x MSU Tacs w/ Razors w/ las/hb
Stormtalon tl las
2x Dakka Preds
Imperial Knight Paladin

I have played against this list with my DelDar and am quite familiar with it. It is heavy on AT and can move very quickly up the table.

I will be fielding

Juggy Axe Lord
Lvl 3 Lord of Change w/ 2 Greater Rewards
2 Solo Mutilator, MoT
2x 5 CSM, Flamer, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster
14 Deamonetttes of Slaanesh
5 Chaos Spawn
Hades Heldrake
3 Solo Obliterator, MoN

He has lots of dakka but no cc. So how would play my list?

First: Strike a commanding pose of indifference as he deploys. This will be unsettling to him and ever so often as he's about to put something down make a noticable but short lived intake of breath type sound, but continue to look indifferent. Slow eye movements will be key, when necessary at all.

Now. When you deploy, I want you to do so incredibly quickly as if the answer were so obvious a child should know that this was inevitable and this sends a subconscious message to the enemy that they have made a fatal error, else why would you deploy so quickly and effortlessly?

the seeds of doubt planted, its time to water them. State simply "I wont be seizing, as you have no doubt surmised".

He will have no clue why you are not attempting this. However, it will prey on his mind.

Putting damage on his Knight early may be very important to your chances. But what you need to do is lure that Paladin to one side. Your speed is very apparent with Juglord, Lord of Change and deep Striking shenanigans, and if you can get him to come way over to one side AWAY from where the Deep striking will occur, you will really have a good time. The Chaos Spawn may have to be the sacrificial unit to get the rest into place so race it up a side and try to get him to bite. Daemonettes are the really tough call here. What you do with them may determine the game. Depends on the mission. He's got a ton of withering firepower to rain down on them and reserving them may be the only option? Let the heat cool down first and then bring them. At minimum, deploy them and keep them separate from the side the Spawn are on.

Ready? Go!

Oh fun! I've faced a list very similar with my DE/Eldar several times. It can be strong depending on the mission but our speed and weaponry options really make the matchup in our favor IMO. Speaking of scenarios do you know which set your paying from or do you roll each game luck us? Obviously that will effect things.

Without really delving into your list much.. In general I feel the IK is pivotal but you don't want it to dictate your MAJOR plays. Make it feel over costed instead.

Therefore I would try to bait him into deploying the IK poorly to reduce its impact on your army by limiting its assault initially. Then I would summon speed bumps to delay it as a top priority, second only to first blood. If the spawn were nurgle I would attempt to tarpit him with those. They will do the trick for a few if hes not rolling hot. But their not so moving on..

Deploy to deny easy FB from your rhinos by his knight and preds. After you nab FB from him the preds arent very threatening to your army. I might still hunt them though, priority vs troops depending on what role his troops serve in the scenario. Likely I would hunt the troops since thats usually what I do in every game. Troops and fast units. Oblits and mutilators both look good here for the hunter role.

The flyer I feel is a non issue. You have multiple ways of dealing with it and its impact is low. Waste of pts IMO but I feel the same about all flyers. Just keep the daemon over cover just in case it does get lucky and you crash when it comes on, then FF it if it bothers too much.

The psycho I would use as the bait. After that he can move to take out troops and the libby possibly splitting off if needed hopefully coordinating with the arrival of your dragon. He along with the Nettes are fast enough to do it without risking FB like the rhinos. They should move forward aggressively keeping 2" distance in mind and be a backup buffer to the IK as a secondary option.

Lastly the lord of change. Now this depends on how you view chaos psychic focus. We play that generating all powers from 1 discipline gives him flickering fire, rather than that bs TO ruling of chaos focus cancels itself.. So if thats the case I would roll on malefic searching for sacrifice and summoning and taking FF as my focus (cursed earth is lower here in this army, at least to me). If not then I may take 3 primaris powers from all 3 disciplines. Keep the LoC in the air to buff the army and throw shots around.

Now the other, waay more risky option that may arise, is if you get armourbane/fleshbane + some defensive kit as your gifts. Then I would be tempted to roll for FNP or IWND on warlord traits and shoot for precognition to just kick ass, starting hidden but in jump mode of course. This is a more balls out approach but with it you have a weapon that will defeat his primary centerfield dominator so go offensive I say. High risk. High reward.

Unorthodoxy- that was hilarious!

It is an interesting match up for sure. He has more MSU OS then me but I have more units. I cannot win a war of attrition if it is a shooting war so I need to get into cc. But not with the IK, lol. My LoC and a twin-linked Hades Helchicken should take it out with a bit of luck. I'll have to roll for Tzeentch in this match up and just one roll on Div for prescience. I need flickering fire and hopefully bolt ... a pity cause I want misfortune too. But not at the expense of flickering/bolt. I will much surprised if his talon does anything.

I feel a fair bit of my success unfortunately relies with good DS and reserve rolls. I hate leaving a win up to the die but meh. I will start as much as feasible on the table if there is half decent cover and depending on the mission. I will certainly attempt to bait the IK but I know this guy. Her likes a central presence with his IK. He is no fool. He plays the list as blue smurfs and plays it well.

I am playing this list because it is one of those sleeper lists you see at tournaments. It is a relatively simple approach. Rhino rush with IK backup when played well can be difficult to handle. It surprises the unprepared. Stopping him from grabbing objectives will be quite hard. He does not mind sacrificing a rhino or two. He will field a few empty, push em up and pop smoke followed by the IK begging me to assault. I know it. It would be my plan. So I need to take him out from behind with a few good DS drops and assault from the back. This will confuse him a bit hopefully as I'll attack from multiple angles with units that can be sacrificied without too much pain ( solo oblits and solo muties).

Rending daemonettes are good ... in an 1850 list i would have a unit of screamers as well to handle an IK but not enough points here at 1500. The game is not going to played until next week Monday. So I'll let you know how it goes. I feel the game should be quite even and a lot of fun.

I wouldn't be averse to throwing a few shots the knights way if opportunity permits, but I don't think that list has the firepower to take it down even on rear armour due to the shield. That said if you must you must but it's gonna take the combined effort of most of those solo daemons, maybe more, and even then it's not guaranteed. If you roll armourbane and have decent cover you can keep it at bay, especially if you roll precog.