A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

To put some things in perspective this list won the last big UK tournament at Warrington England - an invitational for the top players ...

Eldrad
Farseer
Baron
Beastpack
2 Guardian Jetbike squads
2 Wraithknights
3 Vauls wrath weapon batteries
5 DE warriors

And you are right  ... the other beastpack list was the big tournament before Nova ... but it was again a list centered around assault.

Now I looked at the top[ 16 ay Nova - not just the top ten. Well over half the lists had at least one beefy assault unit. I include IKs, DKs and WKs here because they are beefy assault units as well as shooting platforms - in fact they do better in assault.  So Nova only proved what we already knew - Eldar break the mold with wave serpents. Otherwise you need that beefy deterrent as a list that can get into assault turn two will eat you up.

Now I was not at Nova and I've read only a few reports but I know rhis. Around here wave serpent lists have changed. They use two farseers minimum and they summon daemonttes - assault units - to buffer their lines and deter the opponent's assault. You are not summoning daemonettes to shoot. So evn lists on paper that seem to have nos assault units can be deceptive.

So alist with a single WK should be assaulting something with it and if he summons he is making it much more difficult on the opposition. Discounting WKs as assault makes no sense. They are there to deter just that.

Duck here is the shooty with combat support list i said i would show you in chat before you left.

Azrael. 215
Command squad. drop pod, 5x plasma gun, standard of fortitude?, drop pod. 295
Ravenwing Attack Squadx6 bikers. 2 flamers
attack bike. MM
Landspeeder. MM, AC
306
Ravenwing Attack Squadx6 bikers. 2 flamers
attack bike. MM
Landspeeder. MM, AC
306
Deathwing terminator squadx5. 5 TH/SS, 1 Cyclone launcher. 270
Deathwing terminator squadx5. 5 TH/SS, 1 Cyclone launcher. 270
Darkshroud. 80
Darkshroud. 80
1842/1850

has 8-10 objective secured squads most of it fast moving and shooty with the 2 squads of cc support for hard targets, cant remember which standard i took sorry it might be that one or an apoth and the chapter banner.

So I played a crazy game on the weekend with two incredibly broken lists against me ... it was a three way battle and took us all night ...

== Deathstar Necrons ==
Nemesor Zahndrek
Vargard Obyron
Overlord Phaeron Sempiternal Weave Phase Shifter
3x Harbinger of the Storm, 3 Volatic Staff 1Lightning Field
3x 5 Necron Warriors Night Scythe
Tomb Blade TL Tesla Carbine
2x 7 Canoptik Scarabs
3 Sentry Pylons Focused Death Ray IWND

== Summoning Eldar ==
2x Farseer Runes of Witnessing Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan  (guide/fortune/summoning)
2 Warlocks (conceal/reveal)
3x 5 DA Waveserpent shuri/scatter  
2x 6 Swooping Hawks 
Crimson Hunter
3x 3 D-cannons

my list ...

== Stompa Krrunch ==
Big Mek, KFF, Da Fixer Upper
Warboss, Power Klaw, Da Finkin Kapp, Boar
2 Meks
2x 10 Grots, Runtherder
16 Boys, Shootas, TL Rokkits, Nob, PK, Bosspole
15 War Boars, Nob, PK, Bosspole
2x 1 Deffkopta, TL Rokkits
3 Mek Guns, Lobbas, +2 Ammo Runt
7 Lootas,
Stompa, Grot Riggers, +2 Suppa Rokkits

Now the Eeldar and necron players each felt that the other was the main opposition. The Nec player chose to alpha strike his deathstar (obie wan kenobe, phaeron, pylons) and try and take out the wave serpents early. The eldar player chose to obliterate the scarabs with hawks first.

Now, me the orks , did a bit of shooting at whatever was weakened but tried not to look overly threatening targeting both the necs and eldar.

The other guys quickly realized that my list had both cc and dakka galore and decided that MAYBE the Orks were more threatened then they looked. Suddenly a little more attention was thrown my way with my lootas and stompa being primary targets. I decided that the boar boys would go after the serpents ... really my only choice as the sentry pylons can just relocate even out of combat. I figured Mr. Eldar would take them out for me.

This was a mistake. As between me and the necrons the eldar player quickly was in trouble. Even with a few good saves he had to jink his serpents and his summoned daemons - blocking the boys path were then dispatched by my boys easily. Meantime the scythes and pylons tore through the rest of his list.

Now I needed the eldar player to survive - was relying on him to take out at least a few night scythes and was hoping I could get one with my lootas and stompa. The battle became mesyy as I switched my attention to the pylons too.

After three and a half hours of play we called the game with no clear victory although the necrons were ahead on points and the orks still had a walking stompa. The pylons were down though so the game had we preceded could well have been won by me.

Now we played this game becuase in single competition my orks were beaten down by both these lists. Close games but loses. So i suggested we all face off against each other in a big brawl, lol. I did not think I would get home at 3:00 AM though. I was so tired. The last part of the game was more keeping awake and drinking coffee then actually careful planning of my moves, lol.

This was a new list for me. I wanted to back the stompa up with boar riders instead of my usual dual weirdboys and sanctid which failed me last game - I think it works better with the boar riders, TBH, but when I roll well on sanctid - well ... Thing is the new list has a bit more dakka without giving up its cc punch. And to claim objectives - we played a modified maelstorm three way ( I know eh) I had enough units to actually make a go of it. Hard to say though since three ways are so skewed. We placed a neutral center objective then three more objectives each in out own quarters and we deployed 12" from said objective. We use KPs and slay the warlord but no linebreaker --

On another note I took a close look at Tony's Nova winning list ... FIVE wave serpents. Two squads of hawks, two of fire dragons, wk. GW missed the boat - wave serpents should be able to take wave serpents as dedicated transports, lol, to make things fair no?  - and wave serpents should become T8 MCs with the transport special rule, and may fire their serpent shields four times a turn and be allowed to take a telepathy power. That would nicely balance out the eldar codex.

egorey wrote:

Again- all your points have merit. I'm just observing from a altered perspective - this is the duck thread after all - and suggesting that adding at least two assault capable units to a list makes sense in 7ed.

I do not think you need at least two, but will agree that having assault units makes sense in 7th. Of course it made sense in 6th and 5th as well. It even made sense in 4th, which was the true king of the shooting editions I think. I also think 5th was the most recent crowning moment of assault as a competitive strategy.

I will agree that assault can deal with Wave Serpents depending on the assault, though most credible Serpent players should be able to minimize that threat in the same way a DE player does so - we should be faster than most assault options, really.

I disagree still that Wraithknights are assault units. I will agree with you that they can be used as a deterrent to assault.

I actually didn't think Tony's list, at 5 Serpents,w as really being that extreme as far as spamminess goes. He actually showed a brilliance that I often see lacking in more net-listing builders. I offer up people who Venom spam as a good corollary example. People will spam Venoms (or Wave Serpents) and then act shocked when they have trouble dealing with units that those models are not good at dealing with. The point of spam is to spam enough to have the ability to devastate in the field that the spammed unit is good at, while still having enough points left over to handle other threats. I think Tony's additional support choices were well chosen to help supplement what Serpents lack at. Also, frankly, looking at some of the other lists in the tournament, I think his list also speaks of a credit to his play skills - I know I'd be intimidated being across table from him even if I thought I had a superior list.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

But we're talking perhaps at cross purposes. You seem to be talking about the propensity for SEEING shooting armies. I think we're atalking about whether the edition FAVORS it more.

Isnt it quite possible that people simply arent building/built to handle anything else? 6th Edition was incredibly shooting oriented, but 7E brought a lot more balance. I think Blood Angels players, as prolific as they were and their complaining caused anyone who DIDNT have an uber assault army to say "well if they cant do it..." in 6E and i dont think that head ache has left peoples heads.

Yet here I stand before you with a Dark Eldar force and an Astra Militarum force, both with shooting elements but both highly committed to close combat as our endgame. I look at the Space Marines and see another book where close combat is highly practical and Space Wolves? highly practical. So I wonder a LOT whether this is simply a function of the 5E Blood Angels fall from grace?

Maybe.

But Duck's original comment (that I disagreed with) was that 5th was a shooting edition and that 6th and 7th were less so.

I think 5th was an assaulty edition, and that 6th and 7th are shooty editions. I suppose I'll agree that 7th is less shooty (because ti did take away some shooting advantages and make transports *slightly* (extreme emphasis on the 'slight' part) less death boxes - so I will agree that 6th was more shooty than 7th. Both are more shooty than 5th though. If you agree with that then you agree with me and we disagree with Duck.

We agree almost entirely Thor other than 5th which saw a whole lot of rhino/razor mech spam lists focusing on melta and plasma and an influx of Rifle Dreads (which have lost their lustre in 7ed as most walkers have). Also flyers were not as serious a threat. As far as Tony goes - he is arguably the best player in the world. Now the top players prepare for Nova. They spend a lot of time modifying and adjusting their lists, practicing against other lists and analyzing the missions and expected terrain (was a lot better at Nova this year). There was a near identical list to Tony's as well that placed top 16. The lists are not as orginal as some think as they are designed and practiced by groups of players, are posted online before the tournament, and are expected at the tournament. Only Alan Aleong's Bully Boyz necrons was a surprise and it did quite well.  Which is my point actually and J's ...

Originality and thought can beat the established lists out there. Of course it takes a calibre of player above my skill level to pull it off, lol.

Hello guys, I'm not really a veteran of warhammer but I would like to bring up an interesting point. What makes games fun? I am quite strong on the thought that characterful and "fun" lists are the way to go to get enjoyment out of the game. But others like to make lists that utterly crush their opponent into the ground, sadly this could not be fun for the opponent they are going up against. So what can we do to make 40k fun? The people you play with. If we play with like-minded people, for example I play with people who love to make campaigns and back stories for their armies, we play more fluff-related lists. But there is a separate section in our club in which there are WAAC players who everyone tries to avoid to play with, and this sadly causes separation in the club.

Now lets discuss what I think is a WAAC list and a "fun" list. Now a standard WAAC list is a list in which the player has taken a top tier codex and got out all the "cheesy" units which can allow him an instant win. While a "fun" list is a list which does not use "cheesy" units and powerful combinations and instead builds a list from the models they love and the background that they have made. As you can probably tell a WAAC list against a "fun" list would be a pretty one-sided fight to two players of equal skill. This can change the "fun" player into a WAAC player out of self-defence which could not be enjoyable for the "fun" player but be his/her only chance at actually seeing his units do something on the battlefield.

Overall, I think an enjoyable game revolves around like-minded players who play 40k how they want to and having a well fought close game that both players enjoyed no matter if you won or lost, do you agree?

You see this is my problem. If I like the eldar codex or the necron codex or the tau codex or even FMC daemons because i also like the fluff and look I will be veering towards what is defined as 'waac'. Winning for me is not the be-all-end-all. I do like competitive games though. I learn from them they are hard fought and I have fun. You make some valid points - I'm curious what other replies we will get.

egorey wrote:

Only Alan Aleong's Bully Boyz necrons was a surprise and it did quite well.  Which is my point actually and J's ...

I am not attempting to argue that point, if it is your point.

I am arguing that 5th was better for assault than 6th or 7th, and also that Wraithknights are shooty units, and also that shooty lists do better than assault lists in 7th edition, because the edition favors shooting.

Theatakcat wrote:

Overall, I think an enjoyable game revolves around like-minded players who play 40k how they want to and having a well fought close game that both players enjoyed no matter if you won or lost, do you agree?

I would say this is obvious. I have had very fun fluffy matches and very fun WAAC matches. The issue arises when players looking to play one way feel umbrage at a player who is looking to play another way - and the gak goes both directions and neither group is pristine in how they handle it. The only thing I disagree on is 'close fought' as I have had blowouts that were enjoyable in both directions - the issue is to have a game that both sides stood functional a chance to have won.

But, yes, as long as you and your opponent are on the same wavelength, fun shall ensue.
As with basically all competitive events.

Theatakcat wrote:

Overall, I think an enjoyable game revolves around like-minded players who play 40k how they want to and having a well fought close game that both players enjoyed no matter if you won or lost, do you agree?

For me, the game itself is incredibly fun.  I play a ton of the armies.  You can go to my blog and see that I am pretty firmly not in the WAAC camp.  

However, I am good and at the end of the day, i am not sure what makes people feel like they played a WAAC player:  losing really badly, or the list?  The list is an easy culprit to point at.  It's usually not the problem though.  A fluffy list can beat people if you're good and HARD lists can be quite fluffy.  Whats fluffier than a fleet of Wavespam invaders?  Nothing really.  But they wreck face in capable hands and die horribly to uber fast melee.  So when building a fluffy list i think if you're giving no nod at ALL to battlefield realities, you cant really blame the opponent for that.  There simply ARE things you NEED to account for in 40K and if you choose not to for fluff reasons, plant your fluff flag and lose proudly without casting aspersions at the other guy.

I've not yet seen the list that cant be beaten.  I HAVE seen the list that will beat you if you dont adjust for.  And many fluff players, I find, are stubborn and dont want to paint any more, dont wanna buy any more and they really aren't willing to scratch build things enough to alter their course and that inflexibility is as ill reputed as the WAAC players propensity to play "The last list Tony Kopach won with" so to speak.

I personally beat people and sometimes I beat them pretty hard and i know of a few players who are in no hurry to get back in the ring.  Am I WAAC because Im effective?  I don't think so.  My lists say I'm not.  But yet...  A guy who takes it to the face five in a row might resent it enough to try and label me that way, and quite unfairly.

Honestly I dont know what to say about this WAAC label (which was your question).  For ME, WAAC is an attitude, not a list.  Its the guy who picks his dice up a little too quick, who is a little too uh... liberal with measurements, whose always asking the question "Do you think that if I combine these ten rules together I could form Voltron", and the guy who throws models.  to me, thats more of what *I* associate with WAAC, not the lists.

I think its a mixture of list and player personality that determines if its WAAC. If you have poor sportsmanship and game the system to your advantage, I don't care what list you have, you are a WAAC player. Some lists can be made such that they game the system to the max, purposefully...and thus would probably be deemed WAAC. There are many shades of gray in there though so its tough to just say one or the other based on list alone in my opinion.

Also all lists can be beaten but the question is can they be reasonably beaten? In the grand scheme they might be, but certain armies struggle against certain opponents and thus I believe some things can seem waac more than they probably are. Its tough land out there.

For example, currently the guy I have been playing against uses white scars bikers...he's played bikes since before they were the hottest thing to play. He admit he likes the cheese and tells me to bring my hardest lists...but I design lists usually away from the common used lists usually. Thus, I struggle immensely and haven't won yet. You might think DE should wreck bike lists...that would depend on your DE army and I would tell you don't underestimate the ability of your opponent to make a ton of saves. Honor guard with shields on bikes, chapter master with shield eternal on bike allied with Khan, space wolves on wolves, etc...makes for a squad that will massacre you. FNP and a 3++ and many multiple wound characters that hit like sledge hammers is just plain tough. My army composition struggles from my DE army and of course mistakes are made but is he waac though? I wouldn't say so because of his attitude. He's usually getting ready for tournies so I understand the cheese he's trying to master. He also welcomes what ever I have to challenge him and get him ready. It's a matter of player's attitude and how they treat their list.


In other news...new Dark Eldar codex right around the corner (2 weeks). I'm pumped and can't wait to see what new goodies we have to work with and hopefully spoil the meta some!

On this subject I'm going to be putting together a Tau list. Now I do not feel the list is waac but I do want to win games with it. I know my compwetition will not be easy on me so I want to compete against Eldar, Necrons and Daemons and White Scars and Centstars. Now I'm sure there are casual players who will feel that the list is strong but really ... as mentioned above one needs to define what differentiates this from any other well constructed list.


So I'm still preparing to build my Tau force with J's help. I've come up with this list which uses a lot of his ideas and few of mine ( I have my style of course).

CAD Tau Primary

100 -- aun'va

276 -- 6 pathfinders - pulse carbines - 3 rail rifles - grav-inhibitor/pulse accelerator/ recon drones - emp - devilfish - disruption pod

280 -- 2x 10 kroot - 3 krootox - 1 hound

260 -- 2x skyray missile defense gunship - sms - blacksun filter - disruption pod
84 -- 3 sniper drones - 3 firesight marksmen

CAD Farsight Enclave

100 -- dark strider

230 -- riptide - heavy burst cannon - tl-fusion, skyfire, earth caste array
190 -- riptide - ion accelerator - tl-fusion - interceptor

186 -- 3 crisis suits - 2 missile pods
42 -- crisis suit - tl fusion - flamer

So dark strider goes in the devilfish with the pathfinders - likely outflanking. Then everything can come down or outflank close by that is in reserve. Aun'va will allow me to play a few tricks - GtG - not run off the table , etc.

List has a good mix of AP and strength, AA, AT and AI.  I  have four markerlight sources so I hope that suffices.

at 1750, four Markerlight Sources will suffice. But you actually only have 3 and should be realistic about that. I still think it's enough, but just a point of order. You wont be using that fourth unit for Markerlights.

I sent a PM with some thoughts, before I saw this in the general post area, so scope that out. There are seem changes I would make though. it's close. Real close. After you see what I suggested, post another version with it and lets see whatcha got.

I edited the list and put the drones in. As you mentioned I could run it as a pure farsight list but i'm okay with how it looks as is. We have markerlights on both skyrays, the sniper team and the pathfinders - so actually there are four sources all together if needed.

I think I'd rather have the Ion Accelerator with that many Markerlights. Also, would love to see the Fusion disappear and to see one more FireSight Marksman.

I've actually finally managed to read every single page of the thread from front to back. I feel obligated to say how impressed I am with it all. It's been fantastic at getting an insight on the ins and outs of options for armies I don't have the opportunity to come to blows with often. As well as proving you can have your fluffy fun cake and poison it to let foolish mon-keigh eat it too. Certainly look forward to watching you folks perform your craft at dissecting the new Dark Eldar codex when it drops.

According to Bols these are the ten best units in 40k right now

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/09/40k-10-best-units-in-game.html

1. Wave Serpents -
2. Firestorm Redoubt -
3. Imperial Knigh
4. Wyvern -
5. Culexis Assassin -
6. Grav Centurions -
7. Coteaz -
8. Necron Catacomb Command Barge -
9. Chapter Master w/Shield Eternal/Gorgon Chain -
10. Nurgle Winged Daemon Prince -

Notice that some armies have NO top ten - Tau, Orks, CSM, DE, Nids - no beastpack, no thunderwolfs, no JETSEER, no TFCs, no screamers ( DP of Nurgle really better?). No STOMPA! Heresy. Is this where we are at in 7ed? Let's see your lists ...

Looking at nova results some of those top tren wee not even there - I can make a few general statements as well based on tournament results ...

Swooping Hawks are the best FA slot for Eldar
Beastpacks are the best FA slot for DE
Daemon summoning is weaker than FMC lists
Grav is not the threat that people assume it is
Coteaz is not even in the GK codex anymore and cannot take henchmen as troops
No WK - really?
Is a Nurgle DP better than a juggy lord? ahriman? khan?
No flyrant?
No swooping hawks?

That list is affected by its writers personal experience. Mine would be a bit different. I still don't like Necrons (or Tau).

In that list there is at least 4 units I have not faced myself so I cannot comment on those. But those that I have are defenietly on the harder side.

Beast are out perhaps because they are getting new rules next week. And they need a lot of support to concidered top tier.

The eye of the beholder is tricky.

I can think of a few units that deserved to be there instead ofCoteaz. My opinion of "top ten" lists is that they are often just there to get clicks. Look at what you see in sports. Lol. but this top ten they put together is at minimum debatable. what i will say is that the things on it are very good unit and I certainly wont dispute that.

To be fair I think Bols posted a top ten 6ed despite the date. A number of units are not what they were in 6ed. Even firestorm redoubt with the new interceptor rules has lot its luster. As Othodox says we could certainly pick three units from the list and replace them and then another three or four which are strong could be replaced with arguably as strong units.

The inherent bias is obvious. But of course we all have a bias. So picking a top ten is at the best of times a matter of personal opinion. There are of course always a few units that stand out. The wave serpent is likely in everyone's list and the IK would certainly make most peoples. That is overall a solid list for good units.

The only reason i posted it was to see what others considered the best of 40k now. If you were constructing a list for a tournament what would be your must have unit? Let's also assume that we are talking about a solid tournament list and yes - mission, format etc., would play a role in your choices. But usually a unit or two always sticks out for you. Or is this really an impossible task?

What do you hate to see on the other side of the table? i think that is the starting point for these discussions.

I really hate seeing wave spam. Hate isnt the word. More akin to grudging respect. After that, I'd say that invisible beast pack deathstars are truly one of the sickest possibilities in 40K. It can be dealt with by Tau in various ways and now the assassin. Very possibly Dark Eldar soon as well but thats conjecture. Regardless, this is one thing I definitely dont look forward to seeing.

After that Tzeentch Flying Daemon Circus is truly heinous. Here again, I do now know how to defeat it. However it took me longer on that than most things and even knowing the best route doesnt make it easier. Just possible.

Thats my start to the list. Intelligent Generals commanding those are truly going to give me heart burn.

This is the list I hate ... I will bold the units I hate in the description.

== Summoning Eldar ==
2x Farseer Runes of Witnessing Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan -- 245 (guide/fortune/summoning)
2 Warlocks - 70 (conceal/reveal)
3x 5 DA Waveserpent shuri/scatter  -- 585
2x 6 Swooping Hawks -- 192
Crimson Hunter -- 160
3x 3 D-cannons  -- 495
== 1850 ==

My friend plays it and he knows all the tricks. He starts by summoning a few units of horrors as both farseers have summoning. If he gets lucky he will get cursed earth or be able to summon SCREAMERS/FLESH HOUNDS - so bad. If not after the horrors are spawned he just summons daemonettes. Now he uses his damons to buffer all those nasty shooting WAVE SERPENTS and the very nasty D_CANNONS. Of course he has the icing on the cake too. Put an IK on the table and his SWOOPING HAWKS are gonna a have a ball with them. And the daemons take overwatch for anything else in the list that attacks - even each other. They are disposable if you spawn two units a turn. Send in the a beast pack and they will tar pit all game. And I hate FARSEERS - they do not perils. They cast all game.

wanderingblade wrote:

He's probably busy crying tears of hate at your logic ••

Respect the D-cannons. Been telling people for years how good they are. now with a picket fence generator? good times. Though remember you cant cast the same power from the same unit twice and cant fire from inside the Wave Serpents. Barrage weapons would dig him out of the artillery units to some extent if that's where he hides them. Still, very hard to find fault with that list.

If that list was any more removed from reality it would be a BoLS rumour. And the Grav Cents entry shows they made a token attempt at updating it.

The Imperial Knight is currently number 1. I think it's the unit that most defines army list building, in that if you can't kill one there's no point turning up to a tournament, while also being still effective despite everyone gunning for it.

I'm not sure what else makes the list. Do you include Flesh Hounds, as invisible Flesh Hounds are horrible, or Be'lakor as he's guaranteed Invisibility? I don't know. But I do know that if I was making a list, the question of "How do I deal with an Invisible Beast Pack/Flesh Hound unit/TWC squad/Nurgle Spawn" would be one I asked myself. Any list without such a thing is risible.

How the invisible beast pack didn't make the list is quite mysterious, or just eldrad in general.

Assuming that wave serpents, invisible beastpacks/screamerstar/houndstar and IKs are three of outr major threats - how do these armies deal with them - note these are some of the top armies ...

Eldar/DE
Tau
Necrons

Do we use a culexis in all our builds? If the tournament allows just one ally or detachment it starts to become a limitation and if your opponent is not using psykers? Do we need haywire in every build? Do we need large cheap sacrificial squads? Is speed enough to defeat these units?