A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Hate to burst your 48+3D6" death bubble, but beam weapons cannot hit zooming flyers. Page 84 of the BRB; Hard to Hit: Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Of course, other than that, sounds awesome!

Yep this was FaQed - my bad. But until FaQed you have the arguement for the double hits - let us say in one unit it passes over three models and in the other four models - thus 14 hits. Does each unit it hits takes 14 hits or do you divide six hits and eight hits. By RAW it would be each unit takes 14 hits but TOs might argue this. Also in 7th edition unless 6ed artillery has no rstriction on relentless - in 6th a phaeron lord was no help.

Culexus Assassin is the new black for killing invisibility for at LEAST one critical turn. Cant wait to see the horror on someones face when that happenes.

Indeed J but the Necron solution has a certain elegance about it = alpha striking with the pylon will put a 'wtf happened there' in the works too. Being avble to see the target is the only criteria. So cn nominate three different points for your death rays and up to 12" away and then as long as it is possible for the 3D6 to hit that target anything else beneath the beam suffers - I can get 6 hits on any vehicle they all pass over, I can hit units in cc, I can hit invisible units. This is not like a culidus where it serves just one primary function. This death ray does not discriminate and is useful regardless of what you face.

There was this discussion in chat already - what do we do against invisible units - well we use beams, blasts, hammer of wrath, arc effects, etc. There are solutions - Necrons have many actually - just tesla has enough shots to hurt a unit with invisibility. Then you have tesserac arcs, monoliths, wraiths etc. So as broken as invisibility is most armies will have solutions.

Tyranids have - Mawlocs, Psychic Scream, Toxic Miasma, Vector Strike, Hammer of Wrath (anything with wings, any MC), Acid Blood (Pyrovore and Haruspex. DE can use reaver jetbikes with caltrops (it does not target either and is automatic D3/D6 hits). So yes we have a solution too. Now with the dataslate you have your assassin but there are many other solutions with more overall flexibility that are decent units against more targets than just invisibility/psyker. Any psychic nova power can hurt invisible units, btw. So in fact, broken as invisibility is there's a lot more that can deal with Invisibility than given credit for by a lot of gamers.

Well I wouldnt know because I have been working too much and running too many tournies. Cant wait til November. I want to be done w running and promoting. Just wanna play and hit the tournies!

Does anyone else ever occasionally run into that guy that is so tactically bad at the game, that you simply feel sorry for beating him so soundly?

I recently played against such a player, and as an example of something he did, he had an infantry HQ that was within a few inches of an infantry squad. There was literally no logical reason to have the HQ on his own. It was a non-combat oriented psyker. This player, at any time, could have joined said HQ to the unit, and indeed had 2 rounds to do so, but did not.

So, I shot the HQ with an instant death blaster shot, and gained slay the warlord, but I didn't feel good about it.

It is how I felt playing my CSM/Dawemon list against the rhino/IK list. His positioning was poor, he did not understand how to use his IK either. IKs seem click and shoot but you do need to know positioning and deployment for them to work. You need to use them to control ther center and be aggressive and be aware of their sides. back and arcs of fire.

On another note  - my Orks have another match coming up ...

Necrons 1500

Overlord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - Sempiternal Weave - Phase Shifter - Catacomb Command Barge - Tesla Cannon
Harbinger of Despair - Abyssal Staff
Harbinger of the Storm - Voltaic Staff
5 Deathmarks - Night Scythe
3x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe
5 Warriors - Ghost Arc - Gauss Flayers
Tomb Blade - TL Tesla Carbine
3x Annihilation - Tesla Cannon - TL Tesla Destructor

The list above is almost a standard Nec list now. With the changes to 7th, necrons have taken on an MSU feel. They take the warrior tax for a vehicle, often have no heavy hitters other than the CCB Lord, and a few crypteks. Less than 40 models but they can grab objectives, have linebreakers , speed, durability and a ton of dakka. Welcome to 7ed. I have not seen them winning a lot at tournaments yet but I feel that they will.

These type of list drive me crazy. He has the tools to win missions and I really do not want to field my meganobs/bw against this. I don't have 80+ boyz and a big mek w/kff either. I have 30+ boyz, boar riders, maga mwek and meganobs, buggies, koptas, one wagon, lots of grots. and some lootas (my only real AA). He has eight OS troops and less then 40 models. If I can get into cc and if I can ground some flyers I MIGHT have a chance.

Orks are driving me crazy. They are sooo 'rock, paper, scissors'.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Does anyone else ever occasionally run into that guy that is so tactically bad at the game, that you simply feel sorry for beating him so soundly?

I recently played against such a player, and as an example of something he did, he had an infantry HQ that was within a few inches of an infantry squad. There was literally no logical reason to have the HQ on his own. It was a non-combat oriented psyker. This player, at any time, could have joined said HQ to the unit, and indeed had 2 rounds to do so, but did not.

So, I shot the HQ with an instant death blaster shot, and gained slay the warlord, but I didn't feel good about it.

Death is a great teacher. He will learn from this or he will be destroyed.

Naw I'm just messing around. Best thing to do during casual games is remind your opponent of the things they might be forgetting. I mean honestly, even if the dude beats you because of it, you're going to feel 10 times more entertained than you probably were in this game

There is some truth to the idea that losing is the best way to learn. It's certainly how I learnt!

Personally I take two approaches to cover different problems. If my opponent is simply forgetting things like feel no pain or forgetting to move a unit or something I'll remind them as we go. I won't tend to offer any tactical advice during the game though. Instead I try to always have a post-mortem after games where I feel my opponent has missed big opportunities. I won't hold back during the game generally, but I will talk the game over in detail afterwards, go over what my strategy was, where theirs went wrong, or didn't exist. That sort of thing...

Part of playing any sort of game with a community is being willing and able to help teach newcomers to the game how to improve. But yes, it's never as satisfying to beat someone who's not up to speed.

I would like to report yet another victory for the Court of the Archon.

First let me say that Necrons who play armored craziness are impressively difficult to kill.  I fought a Doomsday Ark, Deathmarks, C'Tan Shard, Warriors in and out of Arks, Canoptek Wraiths, 2 annihilation Barges, Zahndrek and lots of Royal Court.  Very difficult list to fight because av 13.  Very good at shooting high STR shots all over the army.Raiders were falling out of the sky at alarming rates and the Wracks were getting hurt pretty badly by the explosions.

MVP were the Court of the Archon that held up the Wraiths for a pretty long while.  My Sslyth impressed.  He could not beat that unit and they held long enough for the remainer of the beast pack to come in and help.  

The Archon and Urien ended up killing the C'Tan Shard way over yonder and then slowly making their way through the Death Marks and finally coming to rest taking the middle objective holding hands, until the archon got instant killed by a tesla shot.  But Urien smiled, wave, scored.  Beastpack remainders took another (I had like one Clawed Fiend and one BeeastMaster left but it was enough) while the last remaining sslyth stood triumphantly on another...but then got shot in the head by his only remaining unit on the ground.  Still, I had 2 objectives to none and his only units remaining were the damaged Night Scythe and one Annihilation Barge.  That was it.  Everything else was gone.

For my part, I lost the Grotesques, because they actually exploded (via their special rule) after Urien left the unit.  Hilarious.  I lost a Venom, a Trueborn unit, and I lost 3 of the four Raiders.  Also lost both Wrack units.  So it was kinda bloody.  He blew them up a LOT easier than I had hoped but what can ya do?

Necrons can be uber tough especially at 1500 - 1750 pts. A ghost ark w/ 5 warriors and two storm teks are taking down a vehicle a turn. And it is a tough unit. Thankfully they have to move within 12" so you can assault it ... pretty much you do not want a dakka fight with these guys. You do want to get up close and personal. Deathmarks cfan ruin your day too. A marked squad is taking a beating. You must have played a very good positional game to beat that list J - kudos.

So Another victory for the Court of the Archon!
In this game, I faced a Blood Angel player.  He had, essentially
2 x 10 Jump Marines, in Deep Strike reserve, one with Blood Rage
Storm Raven w Furioso and Assault marines plus Gabriel Seth and Corbulo.
Heavy Bolter Razorback. Unoccupied, in reserve
2 Fast Vindicators
2 Bhaal Predators

Okay so he deployed just the tanks.  I went first.  Vanguard Deployment and single objective mission.

1

I moved every raider directly in front of, or to the side of, his tanks and blocked them off from doing anything but moving backwards and forcing them to do so because they couldn’t risk hitting themselves with Vindicators!  Beast pack ran up my left flank at full tilt 18”.  He was stunned by the maneuver.  He backed away and fired, killing a Raider, but he was nowhere near far enough…

2.  

My jet came on and went to cut off the tankls avenue of Retreat.  I got out, put a couple glances on the tanks and charged.  I missed every charge.  Every.  Single.  One.  Even with fleet, even at those distances.  Cataclysimic.  ALL his tanks survived and I was out in the wind.  Not good.
Storm Raven came on and with help shot my Ravenwing out of the air.  Assault Troops alighted in my deployment backfield, and started making their way to my home  objective.  Razorback came on and started plodding the same direction.  He brought the Storm Raven on the board and with help killed the Jet.  He moved back again hoping to put distance between us and opened fire.  Because I had the Archon in a good place, he chose to fire the Vindicators at a different target but still killed a Grotesque and some beastpacketeers.  I deserved FAR worse damage but ended the turn with Just those as casualties.

3

Okay so my Raiders moved to cut off the exits of the Storm Raven as well as the beastpack to disallow it from disgorging its occupants.  Trueborn hopped out and prepared to down some tanks.  At turns end, all tanks were dead but one lucky Predator who AGAIN, due to bad charge rolls, was able to escape my wrath.  The assault did however take the beastpack out of the rear arc of the Storm Raven unfortunately and thus I left a swath for it to disgorge people after all.  Nothing I could do about it.
He got out with Gabriel Seth with his Dreadnought and crushed the beastpack completely.

4

Trueborn grenade the last predator to death while the others dropped the Dreadnought stone cold in its tracks, exploding it.
Urien, the Archon and Grotesques went in and started engaging Corbulo and the gang, but Corbulo tanked it.  However, I had carefully positioned both characters for next round so that the Archon would be closest to Corbulo and Urien would be in a challenge with Gabriel.  The stage was set.  I zoomed the Court across the board to prepare for retaking my home objective and the Wracks that had blocked off his storm Raven went with them in their raider.  The last wrack unit near Urien got out and tried to join the fray but bad rolls…again…  Stopped me!
In his turn, he had to use Look Out sir  a BUNCH of times to avoid Instant Death at the hands of the Archon for Corbulo.  Gabriel Seth died to Urien Rakarths Ichor Gauntlet.  His assault Marines completed their circuit and arrived at my home objective without incident. At this point he had First Blood and Line Breaker plus my objective.  He’s up 5-2 (Warlord, Line Breaker).

5

I finished slogging through Corbulo and his insolent Ne’er do wells, finishing them.  The enemy Objective was now mine.  Meanwhile the Court of the Archon finished closing on my home objective and dropped two Medusae templates on his Assault Marines that had swung there unmolested to that point and killed a bunch, but their resolve held.   The Wracks pushed up behind  in their raider to close on the objective.  It was now contested.  My sole remaining Venom fired at Assault Marines from afar. The score now shifted to 5-2, my favor.
The Court of the Archon took out several Marines on Overwatch (STR 5 AP 1, yup, that’ll do it), but not enough to save their Raider.  The second unit right behind those Assault marines contested the objective also to keep the score the same.  Still 5-2 my favor

6

The Court of the Archon Destroyed the few remaining marines that killed their Raider.  The Medusae Flamers, Venom, 2 Raiders, and Wracks with Liquifier whittled the unit of Assault marines behind them considerable.  The objective was now mine and the objective was blocked by the Sslyth and their Medusae that remained.  Wracks were sitting on it, comfortable in their Raider.
In his turn he tried to kill the Wracks Raider by jumping around us, hoping to kill the Raider, assault the Wracks (Objective Secured made the Sslyth irrelevant)  and consolidate on the objective.  Hail Mary play.  He could not kill the Raider in the shooting phase, Assaulted and killed it but that was not enough to get him close enough to the objective.  He could have tied it in theory doing all that.

Game over

Speed was the killer.  I just was so so fast.  The game would have been FAR more one sided had I not missed every charge at what were laughably easy ranges in round 2.  But my epic fail made it a game and so it was more fun.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

 Best thing to do during casual games is remind your opponent of the things they might be forgetting.  I mean honestly, even if the dude beats you because of it, you're going to feel 10 times more entertained than you probably were in this game

The thing is, I DID remind him of it, and it wasn't even a casual game. It was a tournament. At the beginning of the game, when he placed his warlord, I said, "Is your warlord joined with that unit right there?" And he said "No, he's by himself."

I mean, I don't mind giving people a subtle nudge in the right direction, but for all I know, he could have some master plan that I'm just playing right into by assuming he's silly for leaving his warlord in the open. I don't want to start arguments by responding to his "No" with "Well, he really should be, because otherwise I'm going to kill him with this ravager right here."

I mean, that's moving in the direction of hand-holding, which I don't mind doing for a new player who identifies as such and wants help, but it isn't something I expect/desire to have to do in a tournament setting.

You can lead a horse to water - after that is up to the horse. Everyone has games that are just not challenging because the list is terrible, the player does not comprehend the fndamentals of the game or the player just does not care. Don't worry about it betray - just move on.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Unorthodoxy wrote:

 Best thing to do during casual games is remind your opponent of the things they might be forgetting.  I mean honestly, even if the dude beats you because of it, you're going to feel 10 times more entertained than you probably were in this game

The thing is, I DID remind him of it, and it wasn't even a casual game. It was a tournament. At the beginning of the game, when he placed his warlord, I said, "Is your warlord joined with that unit right there?" And he said "No, he's by himself."

I mean, I don't mind giving people a subtle nudge in the right direction, but for all I know, he could have some master plan that I'm just playing right into by assuming he's silly for leaving his warlord in the open. I don't want to start arguments by responding to his "No" with "Well, he really should be, because otherwise I'm going to kill him with this ravager right here."

I mean, that's moving in the direction of hand-holding, which I don't mind doing for a new player who identifies as such and wants help, but it isn't something I expect/desire to have to do in a tournament setting.

My comment was about casual games, as you can see.

In a tournament, I'm pretty likely to act the same as usual to be honest, but I don't feel that anyone OWES that to the opponent. You're no less a player for holding their feet to the fire in that situation. It's their job to run their army in Tournaments.

For me: If they are really super cool guy and they are playing loose, I do the same. If they want to play tight, I do that. I've won enough now that I don't need to prove it anymore. I just have a tendency to have a "chess like mind" and I enjoy seeing the problem from both sides of the table so I kind of cant help but play chess against myself as we go during a game. its just a tendency I have while playing. It's never going away. I will always be playing their turn against me, every game, in my mind and thus I tend to vocalize it more than I should probably.

So LoWs are now being seen more often at tournaments - Stompas/Draigo/Ghazzy/C'Tan etc. Last week at 1500 points I saw a guy field the list below. I asked him for a copy so I could post it here.

Zarakynel  LOW
Herald of Tzeentch Lvl 3 Greater Reward
Herald of Tzeentch Lvl 3 Greater Reward
14 Daemonettes
14 Daemonettes
10 Horrors
10 Horrors
Soul Grinder of Slaanesh

He lost only one game and the LoW easily made back its 666 points and ended up generally with more wounds then it started with. He was a bit unlucky in the game he lost. He played against a list with teo IKs and near tabled it, lol. The poor IK guy did not know what hit him. His only loss was to another daemon list. So has anyone else been seeing LoWs at tournaments these days?

Its inevitable, dont you feel?  I mean now that they are literally taking HQ's and simply declaring them Lords of War to force feed us the IDEA of Lords of War, even the die hard "Codex or bust" guys like me are now being told "okay.  Well.  Heres a new codex...and its got Lords of War.  So EAT IT and LIKE IT".

So this is not going to change.  Lords of War are now officially official.

I don't know. I mean, I'm sure people can bubble-wrap certain LoW's and such, but I view many of them as being very very risky for their points. Granted, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a DE player, so I'm considering my standard DE toolbox when dealing with them. But in that perspective, I can't help but feel like many of them would be a waste of points against DE. My logic being the following:

1. If the LoW has a toughness value, the sheer volume of poison shots we can pump into it just neutralizes any saves it may have.

2. If it has an armor value, haywire wyches will bring it down so long as they can get in CC. And for those of you familiar with my lists, you know they WILL get into CC, barring a bunch of bubble wrap around the LoW.

That being said, there are 2 situations where LoWs could be problematic. The first being LoW flyers, and the second being bubble-wrapped, high AV LoWs with special saves and other special rules that allow them to heal and such.

I need to get more experience against them before I can analyze further. So far, they haven't been seen in huge numbers in my local meta.

Well Zarakynel is a flyer but she needs to get into cc. Stompas regenerate like crazy. Grot Riggers, fixer upper, kff, a few meks. But that is just a few. Eldar have the Lynx, Necrons the arc and c'tan, Nids the hierophant. I've seen all of them.

Yes J, it is hard now to say no LoWs at tournaments when some are in the codex. It gets messy. I'm okay now that D weapons have been nerfed a bit but still ... some crazy lists can be built. In a highly competitive meta you have to account for the possibility of seeing some.

on another note ... I'm not a Tau player. But I wonder why no one plays a Tau list where everything can scout/outflank/infiltrate?

305 -- Dark Strider
w/ 10 Pathfinders - pulse carbines - 3 rail rifles - grav-inhibitor drone - pulse accelerator drone - EMP

325 -- Shadowsun - command drone
w/ 10 Kroot - 3 Krootox - 3 Hound

300 -- 3x 3 Stealth Suits - fusion blaster - target lock or advanced targeting array

160 -- 2x 10 Kroot - 4 Kroot Hound

292 -- 2x Hammerhead Gunship -  railgun submunition rounds - blacksun filter - disruption pods

116 -- Skyray Missile Defense Gunship - blacksun filter

This is only 1500 points and can play a lot of games with the opponent. Shadowsun can hop a round a bit playing games. There are plenty of positional shenanigans here and deployment options. I spoke to J about this as well, he being the best Tau player I know. Now it should be understood that I own none of these models and the list was just an exercise in building something without the ubiquitous Riptide or Broadsides or Crisis suit spam.

I think you'll like the mileage you get from the Krootox unit and the Pathfinder unit.  Do not forget Pathfinder 5+ armor though.  You MUST make sure you can give them cover.

So that got bloody quick.

When my Yellow Squad of Purifiers got completely bounced by a Necron Lord, Zhaandrek and their warrior buddies, I knew I was in for a long day. And when the Annihilation Barges dance around like Crimson Hunters, evading every shot i could put on them... Hoboy.

In the end it was a twice Resurrected Necron Lord, a DomsDay Ark and like 5 Necron Warriors left on the board, while I was sporting just two Purifier Psycannons and a Line Breaking weaponless Razorback with 1 Hull Point left (is there anything sadder in life). It was down to it. 14-13 at that stage, my favor if I recall. Doomsday Ark, took aim, fired into the Razorback for the second and final time from WAY DOWNTOWN and...

...KARTHOOM! Exploded bits of Razorback everywhere. His Necron Lord dashed to Objective 5 which he just HAPPENED to have two of in his hand. I lost Line Breaker with the death of the Razorback of course, and he scored two, game over. 15-13. I even had three chances at D3 point cards and whiffed them all earlier in the game, opening the door for the Doomsday Ark heroics. Although in the end, the haste of the Necron Lord managing JUST enough movement to get to outpost 5 was the nail in the coffin... Wow. Good game.

I just love maelstrom missions so much.

egorey wrote:

Well Zarakynel is a flyer but she needs to get into cc. Stompas regenerate like crazy. Grot Riggers, fixer upper, kff, a few meks. But that is just a few. Eldar have the Lynx, Necrons the arc and c'tan, Nids the hierophant. I've seen all of them.

Yes J, it is hard now to say no LoWs at tournaments when some are in the codex. It gets messy. I'm okay now that D weapons have been nerfed a bit but still ... some crazy lists can be built. In a highly competitive meta you have to account for the possibility of seeing some.

on another note ... I'm not a Tau player. But I wonder why no one plays a Tau list where everything can scout/outflank/infiltrate?

305 -- dark strider
w/ 10 pathfinders pulse carbines 3 rail rifles grav-inhibitor drone pulse accelerator drone EMP

325 -- shadowsun - command drone
w/ 10 kroot 3 krootox 3 hound

300 -- 3x 3 stealth fusion target lock

160 -- 2x 10 kroot 4 kroot hound

292 -- 2x hammerhead gunship
railgun submunition rounds blacksun filter bldisruption pods

116 -- skyray missile defense gunship
blacksun filter

This is only 1500 points and can play a lot of games with the opponent. Shadowsun can hop a round a bit playing games. There are plenty of positional shenanigans here and deployment options. I spoke to J about this as well, he being the best Tau player I know. Now it should be understood that I own none of these models and the list was just an exercise in building something without the ubiquitous Riptide or Broadsides or Crisis suit spam.

Better. Other than capitalization and such, which is atrocious. But the list looks real solid at 1500. One other thing I PERSONALLY like better than Tarket Locks is the Advanced Targeting Systems. On such a small unit, the utility of that Target Lock ability is THERE for sure, and I don't oppose it that much. But there will be plenty of times when one Fusion Blaster wont be enough and you'll find yourself wondering if you really shouldnt just commit all the shooting to that AV 11 Rhino or AV 10 Side armor on the Chimera Vets, or whatever. On the other hand, the ability to snipe a Power fist or other damaging wweapon out of a unit is pretty awesome and pays dividends when its the other guys turn and he suddenly doesnt have that missile he was goingto use to fire at the Hammerhead (or whatever).

Anywho, food for thought.

egorey wrote:

305 -- Dark Strider
w/ 10 Pathfinders - pulse carbines - 3 rail rifles - grav-inhibitor drone - pulse accelerator drone - EMP

325 -- Shadowsun - command drone
w/ 10 Kroot - 3 Krootox - 3 Hound

300 -- 3x 3 Stealth Suits - fusion - target lock

160 -- 2x 10 Kroot - 4 Kroot Hound

292 -- 2x Hammerhead Gunship -  railgun submunition rounds - blacksun filter - disruption pods

116 -- Skyray Missile Defense Gunship - blacksun filter

This is only 1500 points and can play a lot of games with the opponent. Shadowsun can hop a round a bit playing games. There are plenty of positional shenanigans here and deployment options. I spoke to J about this as well, he being the best Tau player I know. Now it should be understood that I own none of these models and the list was just an exercise in building something without the ubiquitous Riptide or Broadsides or Crisis suit spam.

I think the list is very good, a breath of fresh air which stands defiant amongst the rabble of Tau gunlines and "buffmanders". Shadowsun,Hammerheads,Stealth suits take care of mech and the rest takes care of anti infantry, and the skyray can do both. You have anti MEQ and TEQ and the outflanking/infilitrating could keep an opponent of his/her guard. Love it!

There is no doubt a point in taking advanced targeting systems which can be quite annoying. I've faced them. But target locks also have an appeal with fusion blaster. I think the fusion blaster is a very important addition to this list. Since I'm neither using crisis or riptide I need a few and I can handle AI pretty well but might need that AT targeting a vehicle separate from my burst cannons. It is a tough choice indeed. I'm not worried whether I will hit the vehicle - I have redundant squads for just that reason. Of course, not having played Tau this is just theory based on my approach to the game - I do use lists with DS/Infiltrate/Scout/Outflank whenever possible. So I am familiar with redundant backfield threats.

Yhe other decision I needed to make was whether to go dual skyray single hammerhead or dual hammerhead single skyray. I'm surprised no one commented on that.

egorey wrote:

There is no doubt a point in taking advanced targeting systems which can be quite annoying. I've faced them. But target locks also have an appeal with fusion blaster. I think the fusion blaster is a very important addition to this list. Since I'm neither using crisis or riptide I need a few and I can handle AI pretty well but might need that AT targeting a vehicle separate from my burst cannons. It is a tough choice indeed. I'm not worried whether I will hit the vehicle - I have redundant squads for just that reason. Of course, not having played Tau this is just theory based on my approach to the game - I do use lists with DS/Infiltrate/Scout/Outflank whenever possible. So I am familiar with redundant backfield threats.

Yhe other decision I needed to make was whether to go dual skyray single hammerhead or dual hammerhead single skyray. I'm surprised no one commented on that.

I was not telling you NOT to take Fusion. Somehow that got crossed. of course you want the Fusion.

You want dual Hammerhead in my opinion. Its dual purpose role is much more useful in smaller point games than it is later. The proliferation of anti-tank weaponry also isnt AS pronounced in 1500 points games. Your own list kind of illustrates that.