A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Oh, I know. I was discussing which upgrade I preferred and why. Because I have redundant fusion I feel target lock might be better in this case.

Okay.  I thought you might have mistook what I was saying as being critical of the Fusion (not the case).

Well I feel that it's down to the nit picks at this point anyways.  I think the list is solid.

Court of the Archon update:

First game

Smashed the Iron Hands.  Keyts to victory were being able to multicharge into a Dread while assaulting his tanks, which allowed me to both kill the tanks AND not be out in the open on the opponents shooting phase.  I did this maneuver twice, wrecking his considerable parking lot.  It was SO much armor!  some missed charges in other sectors were costly but by and large the army performed admirably.

In my next game:

I played against the dread Sisters of Battle.  AWESOME build for it.  Nit picks aside, it was extremely dangerous, incluing the Land Raider full of Battle Conclave.  We both wanted melee with our forces pretty much so it was a vicious fight.  All I had left at the end after badly miscalculating his ability, a thing Im RARELY guilty of when ti comes to Sisters of Battle (I of all people really should know better) I still cvame out ahead 20-15 despite having just a wounded Urien and two Grotesques alive at games end.  

The encouraging thing here is that I am getting the chance to put the list against just about every army there is and come out ahead.  I feel it will be even more cool when I finally stick the Crucible in there.  As much as I cherish my Ravenwing jetfighter and the beautiful paintjob on it, I think its not getting the mileage I need it to.  A crucible might not either but at least it covers a gap.

So Maelstrom.  Am I right?  Super fun.  

Thought I'd share my Militarum Tempestus type list.  It plays somewhat like Dark eldar in that its fast, punches hard and has tools.To make the list REALLY hum though, I placed a Psyker (for Psyker defense as well as extra wounds as well as for 4 added Power Axe attacks on the charge) in each unit that is not Deep Striking.  Then I placed a Priest (Zealot rules!) in each of those three units and yes GASP a Power fist on the Scion Tempestors.  Net result:
4 STR 4 AP 2 attacks
4 STR 3 AP 2 Attacks
3 STR 6 AP 2 Attacks
14 STR 3 AP - Attacks

All re-rolling misses on the charge.  All of them are re-rolling failed saves if the Priest gets his War Humn off.  Now since they wont break as long as the Priest is there, added Bonus!  You can even accept the first turn challenge with the two wound Psyker, and if he survives, Glorious intervention the priest in so that you lose the Zealot rule on the enemies turn if the priest goes down.  Flawless timing!  

Now this would be a decent mid range melee unit on its own.  It wont set kill records but it will certainly kill JUST ENOUGH often enough.  

When you add in the damage that the unit can do in shooting, you end up with an above average unit that isnt bloated and thats very hard to shut up.  Your only safe answer for them is shooting them and if their Psyker gets the ma 4+ invul save, its a real bear to take down.  Even without it, 4+ armor works against a lot of stuff.

without further ado, here's the list:
Total Roster Cost: 1999

CAD 1:

  Commissar Yarrick

  1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
  1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
  1 Primaris Psyker

  1 Ministorum Priest
  1 Ministorum Priest
  1 Ministorum Priest
 

  1 Hydra
  1 Hydra

  1 Veteran Squad
     9 Veteran (Shotguns, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Flamer)
     1 Veteran Sergeant (Pistol+CCW)


  1 Veteran Squad
     7 Veteran
     1 Veteran Sergeant
     1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)


CAD 2:

     1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
        4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4
        1 Tempestor Prime

     1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
        4 Tempestus Scion, + Flamers x4
        1 Tempestor Prime

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad
       7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
       1 Tempestor (Power Fist)
       1 Taurox Prime

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad
       7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
       1 Tempestor (Power Fist)
       1 Taurox Prime

CAD 3:

 1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
        4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4
        1 Tempestor Prime


1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad
        7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
        1 Tempestor (Power Fist)
        1 Taurox Prime

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad
        7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
        1 Tempestor (Power Fist)
         1 Taurox Prime

Musing on a Khorne list

290 -- Bloodthirster - 2x Greater Rewards
320 - 2x Herald of Khorne - Lesser Reward - Greater Locus of Fury
120 - Karanak
370 - 2x 15 Bloodletters of Khorne - Banner of Blood - Bloodreaper - Lesser Reward
208 - 13 Fleshounds of Khorne
310 - 2x Soulgrinders - MoK - Baleful Torrent
125 - Skull Cannon of Khorne

So this is a rush list with every squad getting AP2 - no psychic boosts of course but an attempt to spread out the loci ( all models within 6" of a chariot share these). Skullcannon is there as pseudo-assault grenades - Soulgrinders are AA and fire support. The list is FAST. It abuses the chariots - S7 HoW attacks, sweeping advances, and all ther new rules. A khorne herald survives if his chariot is killed. So it is not bad  - but not as good as a Necron barge lord.

The idea of a mech Khorne daemon list is just appealing. I know. There goes the Duck off on another tangent. So how would you build a list like this?

I saw a very similar list to this one Egorey, RECENTLY. It got rolled. the only thing your list has different really is the Skull Cannon. He had a chariot with the torrent flamer and some flamers in their place. But still, it was bad. i dont know what it is about Chaos Daemons. Seems harder to win with them than you'd think it would be. Definitely NOT point and click.

Indeed, it is not a forgiving list J. Positioning and deployment win games but with this list positioning and deployment is even more critical. There are a lot issues with a Khorne list. The chariots can be taken out with S7-8 as can the Soulgrinders. A lone FMC (even with two greater rewards) is vulnerable.

Playing it as transparent and just pushing forward can easily bring about failure. You need to know where to put your HQs, which units scout, which outflank, which DS. I would imagine you will pay heavily for any mistakes here.

All that said it has its strengths too. As per usual maximize those and minimize your errors and weaknesses.

Yes, absolutely. I think Khorne Dogs are the superstars of that codex (but then what did you expect me to say?) with Beasts of Nurgle being a Ridiculously underused asset (but this I assume is a themed army) to support the Khorndogs.

I think we talked about Chaos Daemon armies when we first got to know one another and I was more fresh on the material then. I recall our discussions about plague Drones vs. Beasts of Nurgle. I still think that list would do extremely well against Wave Spam. and with the new abilities that a bala'Kor might offer such an approach? I mean Im just saying. Could be awesome.

Quote :

recall our discussions about plague Drones vs. Beasts of Nurgle

You can make a tournament quality list with those units. But we are discussing abusing khorne now.


So Allan Aleong found a hidden gem in the Ork formations and rode it to 4th place at the Nova invitational …

Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz
- Requires: 3x 5 model MegaNob
- All models gain +1 WS, Fear, Fearless

This was his list:

Overlord (WS, SW, PS, MSS, CCB) - 255
Destroyer Lord (WS, SW, MSS) - 160

5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165

6 Wraiths (1x WC) - 220

5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240

Now even with Orks and Necrons being desperate allies he seemed to manage one eye open. This leads me to my own new creation and gets the juices flowing.


Cad Primary

175 - Lord - MoK - Axe of Blind Fury - Sigil of Corruption - VotLW

122 - 2x 1 Mutilator - MoN

100 - 2x 10 Cultists
153 - 6 CSM - Melta - Combi-Melta - Melta-Bomb - Rhino - Dirge Caster

150 - 5 Spawn

170 - Heldrake - Hades Autocannon

228 - 3x 1 Obliterator - MoN

Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz

750 - 3x 5 Meganobs - Trukk - Boarding Plank - Ram

So trukks and rhino front the spawn and lord. Dirge caster does it evil tricks and oblits and mutilators drop in creating havoc.

egorey wrote:

So Allan Aleong found a hidden gem in the Ork formations and rode it to 4th place at the Nova invitational …

Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz
- Requires: 3x 5 model MegaNob
- All models gain +1 WS, Fear, Fearless

This was his list:

Overlord (WS, SW, PS, MSS, CCB) - 255
Destroyer Lord (WS, SW, MSS) - 160

5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165

6 Wraiths (1x WC) - 220

5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240

Now even with Orks and Necrons being desperate allies he seemed to manage one eye open. This leads me to my own new creation and gets the juices flowing.

First thing anyone who sees the list should be thinking is: Do *I* get to go first or does he?

This list is severely bad news for anyone who goes second because you just wont kill those Meganobz enough to matter. Exploding vehicles? no one cares.

So I mean thats essentially my Court of the Archon idea applied to orks. The meganobz and Wraiths will kill or tie up the anti-air and the Night Scythes will simply circle until its time to alight troops on objectives.

He's actually wasting points in this army but one does not argue with success. the Command Barge looks a little unnecessary but its nit picking honestly because in totality, the list breaks peoples faces in rounds 2 and 3. By round 4 when you can react effectively its too late (perhaps literally).

This is a NULL DEPLOYMENT situation Text book. If you dont null deploy against it, you're going to suffer terribly. That's just how I see it. The clock is so against you on this list. If you can split him up and force those melee units to the corners, I feel you can beat this army.

Well super heavies are now part and parcel of the meta. A new codex comes out a Lord of War is in it. So tournaments are allowing a lot more units on the table. Some Lords of War - C'Tan and Revenant Titan - are still being banned but many are allowed. So I picked up a FW Keeper of Secrets NoS at a great price and now have to use it.

She is not cheap - 666 points - but with regenerating wounds and T7 and FNP she is 3 ++ and can do a lot of damage. Then if you cast invisibility on her it will seem OP but so is dual invisible centstar SW lists - and they are about now.

Now I also have a burning chariot I never used in 6ed - well why would I when I cannot fire its weapon? But chariots have been fixed. The burning chariot with a greater etherblade is now pretty rocking at the cost. You get a lascannon and an AP2 cc weapon. This isn't bad at allat the points. You see the big Z needs support.

I will also add a steed Herald with fiends to outflank - these guys are very good in 7ed too. I want multiple threats on the table to take the heat off my biggest hitter. Zarakynel wants to be in cc - she will take out 1000 points of models inn cc a game if she does not get tar pitted.

So what broken list am I contemplating?

LoW Daemons 1750

095 -- Herald of Tzeentch - Lvl 3
105 -- Herald of Slaanesh - Lvl 2 - Lesser Reward
150 -- Herald of Slaanesh - Lvl 2 - Locus of Beguilement - Lesser Reward - Steed
140 -- 4 Fiends of Slaanesh
122 -- 13 Daemonettes of Slaanesh - Alluress
180 -- 2x 10 Horrors of Tzeentch
170 -- Soul Grinder of Slaanesh  - Baleful Torrent
120 -- Burning Chariot of Tzeentch - Greater Reward
666 -- Lord of War - Zarakynel  

This is the stats on Z:

WS10 - BS3 - S7 - T7 - W6 - I10 - A5 - LD10 - 3+ Inv

She gains a wound on a 2+ if you caused a wound (up to 10). She gets an extra D3 attacks when charging with rerolls on hits and wounds and you need to pass  a leadership test to asault back ( unless you are fearless). So she gets those attacks - a HoW attack - a Stomp attack.

Now she does come armed but it is not OP  - 36" - S6 - AP3 - assault 6 pinning wepon.

All gargantuan creatures get these rules as well - Fear, Fearless, HoW, Stomp, Strikedown, FNP, Move through Cover, Relentless, Smash

Now at Nova beaststars and wave serpent spam pretty much rules the day. Against these lists you have problems. With wave serpents you try to stay out of most of the shooting and close the noose around them, you then win. If you let him get away and blast you from afar, you lose. Against beaststar you throw some cheap tar pits at them and assault only if you know you have a chance. Daemonettes and fiernds can handle WKs well enough. Zarkynel handles everything well enough.

egorey wrote:

Revenant Titan

Bah, 600 dollar model. I still don't understand how they can justify that, and why people are willing to pay it.

The materials aren't expensive, it's not harder or more time consuming to sculpt a bigger model, so their cost as compared to designing and releasing a box of wyches are probably about 2-3x. So, does the price go up 2-3x? No, it goes up 20x.

Toy companies have, and do make toys of similar size, with similar detail, moving parts, pre-painted, and more sturdy, for 1/10th of the cost.

Buy a big optimus prime instead, and save yourself 600 dollars.

Or just play whats in the codex. Crazy thought. I know.

I took your advice Mr. Doxy.

So I played a game against a guy using a very good Eldar list - he has been winning at the club a lot. I tested out my new deathstar and barely squeeked out a win in maelstorm missions. It was a combination of good rolls on powers and warlord traits that won me the game and getting the right maelstorm cards at the right time.  

==Da Bad Moon Snakebite Alliance==
Warboss, Da Lucky Stikk, PK, Bosspole, Boar
Big Mek, Killsaw, Da Finkin Kap, KFF, Boar
2x Weirdboy, Lvl 2 (hammerhand/vortex)
2x 3 Meganobz, Trukk, Boarding Plank
2x 14 Grots, Runtherder  
2x 20 Boyz, Shootas, 2 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Bosspole
5 Deffkoptas, TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw
9 Lootas
=1500=

There are three strong units here.

The boyz run with weirboyz who cast cursed earth/hammerhand for pretty ferocious boys. Because I take the Finkin Kap I can get very lucky - I had infiltrate three units last game so I am a big fan of the Finkin' Kap now.  

The mini-deathstar is all the boars and koptas. It has H+R/+1 WS/rerolls on the boss/scout. It can wreak havoc quite nicely.

Now the manz are really a distraction more than anything else. Oh they can do damage against some units and they do get up table quickly. But they are not the beatstick that they are made out to be by some. Still, a strong unit overall.

Now last game my opponent used three spiritseers for conceal and summoning daemons. He has is going to change up his list a bit this time. He will be running two farseeer and three warlock to be more consistent- doh.

==Summoning Eldar==

2x Farseer -- 100 (guide/fortune/summoning)
3 Warlocks - 105 (conceal/reveal)
3x 5 DA Waveserpent shuri/scatter  -- 585
6 Warp Spiders  -- 114
6 Swooping Hawks -- 96
3x 3 D-cannons  -- 495

The trick here is to get to those wave serpents while avoiding those D-cannons. He also buffers his stuff with summoned daemons. The maelstorm mission was not as kind to him last game as it was to me - so random - and I was able to get a few units in cc. I just corner him and move at him to win. In cc he is in trouble. But I need to take as few losses as possible. I got lucky last game and cast vortex just once - and it did a lot of damage. Perils can really hurt though so I need to play carefully. He has ghost helm for his summoning.

So we have a rematch coming and we will not be playing nmaelstrom this time. That will alter the game play substantially. We will see if I can pull out another win with the Orks. I finsd them rather inconsistent, TBH, but every game is a blast to play.

Goood times.  

Well the Militarum Tempestus rode to war again, this time against Chaos Daemons.  Twas a very close fight.  There's a lot to be said for mobility, and the army has it.  In Maelstrom Missions I am guessing it will be very strong, though I did lose my Maelstrom mission against Necrons with it (also super mobile).

The key to this victory was the Flamer unit.  The Nurglings sitting on objectives and going to ground every round makes them unkillable with normal shooting.  So I had to drop in and flaminate them.  I did 14 wounds with the Deep Striking Scion command unit.  I lost the unit the next round, but it was enough damage that the rest fo the force on that side of the board could slowly whittle the rest, giving me the critical objective I needed to win, 7-6

Long time no see boys and gals! I've been incredibly busy lately and I hope to change that up and get more posts in soon! I'm looking forward to in depth discussions regarding the new codex when it drops so very shortly! I will be looking at it from a point of view that allows and accepts change and that's a guarantee! I promise I won't whine about loses but rather recognize the changes and look at things in light of 7th edition...not Eldar and Tau of 6th...as to me those are very different things.

Glad to hear it! Three cheers for adaptability!

So I'm going to post a list then tell you what is really happening in 7ed.

== Dual CAD Stompa Krrunch ==
Big Mek, KFF, Da Fixer Upper 100
2x Mek 30
Megaboss, Da Finkin Kapp, Bosspole 115
2x Weirdboy, Lvl 2 140
3x 14 Grots, Runtherder, Grot Prod  141
25 Boyz, Shootas, 2 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Bosspole 225
2x Deffkopta, TL Rokkits 60
7 Lootas 98
Stompa, Grot Riggers, +2 Suppa Rokkits 840
== 1750 ==

There was a time shooting was king (5ed) but this is no longer the case. We see lists adding IKs for a reason - they can assault and shoot. Beaststars are winning tournaments - dual beaststar won Nova. An army that can get into assault quickly wins games.

So my list has two units that both shoot and assault. The weirdboys and megaboss go with the large boys mob. They hope to get Da Jump or an infiltrate strategic. If I roll one on Sanctis (which i always do) I hope for cleansing flame or for hammerhand (this makes that big squad quite frightening). The grots just buffer or GtG if needed and take objectives if they can. Deffkoptas are my rokkits along with the boys and the Stompa is the key. You see a Stompa has considerable dakka and he STOMPS!! He gets to where he is needed fast.

The list does not look frightening and in 7ed it really isn't but it has what is needed to compete in 7ed. A unit that can hold the center and threaten (Stompa) and a unit that is capable of shooting and assaulting (the boys). Everything else is support.

Now Tau and Eldar or among the few armies that can get away without dedicated assault - although it is hard to argue that WKs don't add the extra dimension to an Eldar list. Some armies can go go almost pure assault - CSM and Daemons (they might add obits/heldrake/grinder) but assault is their bread and butter. DE love assault units - play your venom spam but dedicated assault units push DE over the top.

Now do not get me wrong. Thee are two very distinct trends going on. One is just Eldar Wave Serpent spam. The other is grav bikers or cent stars with a dedicated cc unit like thunderwolves or something. Pure grav lists can compete but they have match ups that are bad. So an IK is inserted or they ally to get a good cc hammer. Traditional shooty lists like SoB, Ig, etc. will now have a cc unit be it a large blob with some AP2 thrown in and krak or as quad of arcos or something.

Now Orks are NOT a top tier army. But you can win with them in 7ed. Nids are not top top tier also but play against some horde Nids and see how you fare. Assault is back and here to stay in 7ed and maelstorm missions benefit assault oriented armies too.

This is food for thought. I don't know what changes DE are in for yet. I do hope that they do not nerf our best assault units. That would be a shame.

Assault is not the normal mode I go to in 40K just because I am a died in the wool Tau player. But ever since i dedicated myself to meditating on Chaos Space Marines, I have come to the startling conclusion that you're right Egorey. Assault has a very serious place in 40K.

Nay sayers are typically the blokes with no time to game and experiment, and so given their restricted gaming time, they are really only able to try the more "obvious" things like looking at weapons kill ratios and the like.

What melee does, essentially is takes advantage of opportunity statistics. In other words, since Leadership is a pivotal weak point for every unit, the assault army isn't concerned with the kill ratio... Just that at the end of the day, it got more wounds enough to run you off. The probabilties of bringing that tool to bear are the variables that canno be quantified on forums because they primarily deal in terrain and dice rolls that dont involve killing people UP TO that pivotal point.

For example: To calculate the chance of Breaking and cutting down the enemies most valued units, you'd have to know for a fair certainty when and where reserves can come in, you'd have to foresee the terrain, and you'd have to be able to know the number of rounds the enemy can evade you given their speed, which you cant know before the game happens.

Net result: No one on any forum EVER is going to be able to SUCCESSFULLY argue FOR an assault army because the variables are simply impossible to "look at" on forums.

Yet we as Generals of a thousand battles and tournaments can evaluate those things intuitively that unfortunately no one whose on a forum will show any faith in.

So the net result is, many people dismiss the use of such tactics as incidental to their plan. ANY fool can tell you that having at least one hammer in the force is not advisable because the odds are against you facing NOTHING that has melee as a focus is small. You can reasonably anticpate Assault mariens (an average assault unit with the added benefit of being ATSKNF) But most Generals will rely on torrenting down the big boys and using their hammer as a defensive measure more than anything, something to stall or to push the enemy into more fire. Even Chimeras are used this way.

I think that it will take a couple of hard core pipe hittin mutha blankuhs like us to go in and stomp faces at some big tournament to get the recognition that the tactic does deserve.

egorey wrote:

There was a time shooting was king (5ed) but this is no longer the case. We see lists adding IKs for a reason - they can assault and shoot. Beaststars are winning tournaments - dual beaststar won Nova. An army that can get into assault quickly wins games.

I disagree that 5th edition was the shooting as king era, actually. 6th edition was the shooting as king, and personally I think 7th is happily still part of that meta.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Serpent Spam won Nova (Tony K.'s list, yeah?) I'm not sure where the dual beaststar comes into the equation (though I do know a few ran dual beast stars at Nova).

Also, just as a means to argue that shooting *is* still king in 40k, I'd like to run down some of the winners (at least as I understand them to be, we appear to have different sources or are maybe looking at different brackets or something, I'm not sure - maybe dual beast star won one of the other game sets or something? I am referencing specifically the 1850 Nova Open tournament here)

Also, pay attention that NOVA is getting *props* for doing better on their terrain this year, by providing *multiple* LOS blocking terrain pieces. In other words, this was a big tourney without a lot of "here be desert" type tables.

1st - Wave Serpent Spam (also a single Wraithknight) pure Eldar list. Shooty list.
2nd - Wave Serpent/Wraithknight/Beast build Eldar/DE. A shooty list with a single assault element.
3rd - Daemon Horror summon spam list with Knight support. Not really a shooty or assaulty list, a combo list based on psyker exploit.
4th - Necron Scythe Spam (w. Ork Allies, actually a really interesting list) A shooting list using Meganobz as objective grabbers. So, assault elements, but shooting for the heavy lifting.
5th - Tau Riptide list. Shooty list.
6th - Wave Serpent Spam (also a single Wraithknight) pure Eldar list. Shooty list.
7th - Jetseer w. Baron list with 3x Wraithknights. This is the first list that I would call a list favoring assault. Still pretty shooty.
8th - DE Venomspam with Farseer/Wraithknight support. Pure shooty list. (fields Vect though, which is cool to see, though it's clearly for the seize power)
9th - Jetseer/Beaststar list. This is a list focused on assault, straight up.
10th - Chaos list favoring Heldrakes and Oblits, but featuring Kharn. Pretty balanced really.

So, of the top ten lists as I'm aware of them - 3 can be argued as utilizing assault as a main strategy. 6 are pretty much shooting lists, or shooting lists with an assault option, but clearly focused on shooting. 1 is an odd gimmick list that I can't really qualify as either or, but if forced I would claim as a shooty list, personally (I don't think 2 knights make a daemon summon bomb an assault list). Of the top 5 lists 3 are pure shooty, 1 is mostly shooty, and the last is the oddball list that I argue is shooty at heart.

Now, if your contention is that "deathstar assault builds are viable and valuable to add to an army list" then I totally agree with that, I do it myself.

But "assault armies"? No, 7th edition straight up is a shooting man's game, and an army that is focused on assault as its primary goal better be doing it with super durable death stars or not at all. When they weakened cover saves, added more shooting, and limited the ability to assault 1st turn or upon turn of arrival all they did was benefit shooting and weaken assault.

I think 5th edition was the last edition to favor assault based tactics, 6th and 7th are about the dakka in my opinion.

I would argue that the second p^lace lkist had two units capable of assault - WK and beastpack. Which is how I play - two units that can assault but might choose not to. And looking at the lists it becomes quite apparent that Eldar break the mold - which I said. Four or five out of ten used assault as part of their strategy.

I might be off here but I also feel that the top players gravitate now towards established and known winners - Eldar. So results reflect that. I also contend that the assault unit does not have to be a deathstar but certainly should be strong.

We are actually overall in agreement - we are looking at it from different perspectives though. I believe assault is very much a viable approach in 7ed but that it is under utilized and thus Eldar wave serpent spam gets to dominate as a result. Best counter to wave serpents is to get to them in cc.

Wave Spam is its own thing though. Wave Spam is a single weapon system that was VERY poorly thought out, which completely changes the dynamic of the meta.

but here's the thing: we dont ned to know who placed highly. We need to know who they LOST or TIED to. doing well overall doesnt mean you have no achilles. So Id be more interested in THAT for the top 10.

For example my Dark Eldar build was really developed specifically to counter the Wave Spam. and it does. So I sort of would be more interested in the counter data than the standings.

egorey wrote:

I would argue that the second p^lace lkist had two units capable of assault - WK and beastpack.

I will agree that a Wraithknight is capable of assault - but are you seriously telling me I should consider it an assault unit? I disagree if that's what you're saying.

egorey wrote:

Four or five out of ten used assault as part of their strategy.

I will agree that one can say that it is "part" of their strategy.
My disagreement was when you said that 7th edition was not a shooting centric edition. If you agree with me there I don't have any real disagreement with the idea that assault has a place in list design. But I do think that 7th *strongly* favors shooting based armies in competitive events.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

Wave Spam is its own thing though.  Wave Spam is a single weapon system that was VERY poorly thought out, which completely changes the dynamic of the meta.

I would suggest that so did/do Heldrakes, Night Scythes, Riptides, and Knights. But whether or not they are individually broken does not change whether or not the edition favors shooting or assault.
I say that the edition favors shooting, and that by a solid margin.
Pointing out that Wave Serpents are probably poorly balanced can make me go 'yeah, you're probably right" but it doesn't affect my point. The best assault based list in 7th was/is Flying Circus...and even flying circus uses a solid amount of shooting and tends to *favor* the shooting.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

So I sort of would be more interested in the counter data than the standings.

That information is out there if you wish to compile it. I personally do not think it will be that interesting and so choose not to.

I can say that the highest ranked Wave Serpent Spam army that was pure Serpent spam and also had loses (#6 who almost ran what #1 did) had 2 loses. One was to gunline Riptide Tau. The other was to Serpent Spam w. Beasts (#5 and #2 finishers respectively) Neither of those lists was remotely assault oriented besides a single unit in the Eldar one.

I wouldn't mind seeing that info if you want to do the legwork for it - but I don't think it will showcase assault armies stomping shooting armies very often, since the top lists were mostly shooting armies.

I think the only way to prove your point would be to try to figure out the ratio of shooting to assault based armies, and show that with a smaller number of assault based armies a higher than expected ratio reached top tables - that would tend to support that shooting is not actually the superior tactic for 7th edition. Unfortunately I am unsure how we can get that data. But as far as w/l record you can do that easily - the problem is we only have the lists of the top 16, though I suppose trawling some blogs would help you suss out some other lists.

As I said we do not disagree all that much. I'm saying that assault has a place in 7ed and it is better in 7ed. I am also saying that wave serpent spam and night scythe spam to an extent has skewed the meta. Necrons at least assault - wraiths, scarabs, destoyer lords and command barges. It plays a prominent role in some lists.

Yes, I would say that both IKs and WKs are used as a deterrent to assault - there guns are good but not that good. They both are good in assault and DKs are even better.

I do know that an ork player went 5-2 and lost to eldar and daemons - he played an assault horde list. But I cannot find his list.

I'm saying really that we should open our minds to the possibilities of assault as it is the best answer to wave serpent spam. It can also hurt daemons assaulting their herald and horror base. Of course daemons still use screamers and hounds - so lets not pretend they are not half assault.

Again- all your points have merit. I'm just observing from a altered perspective - this is the duck thread after all - and suggesting that adding at least two assault capable units to a list makes sense in 7ed.

BTW, that ork list was quite brilliant - 15 fearless meganobs are not to be trifled with. They hold objectives because they are tough and difficult to shift - do you want to assault them?

And finally - one of the reasons you see screamers and Nurgle Princes in many tournament lists - you can jink and then assault. In fact you can jink overwatch. Scary. This is also why the new bike mob with warboss/painboy is on the rise.

Thor665 wrote:

I would suggest that so did/do Heldrakes, Night Scythes, Riptides, and Knights. But whether or not they are individually broken does not change whether or not the edition favors shooting or assault.

That information is out there if you wish to compile it. I personally do not think it will be that interesting and so choose not to.

I wouldn't mind seeing that info if you want to do the legwork for it - but I don't think it will showcase assault armies stomping shooting armies very often, since the top lists were mostly shooting armies.

I think the only way to prove your point would be to try to figure out the ratio of shooting to assault based armies, .

~~~~~\

Heldrakes didnt shift the meta. they were just annoying as there was nothing to be done about them. Night Scythes are similar: there they are inthe list but other than adding an extra missile or something, what could you do? But they themselves shoot a little, not on a scary scale, any one of them unless you are an armored company. Riptides made assault even more valuable, not less. Wave Spam is the one thing that aaltered things dramatically for armies and made Ignores cover critical, made assault more important, made anti-Psyker measures more important and made other ripple effects like Guardians more valuable and a whole list of other interesting impacts. 60 inch ignored cover STR 7 v vehicles? 7 shots? eh...

But we're talking perhaps at cross purposes. You seem to be talking about the propensity for SEEING shooting armies. I think we're atalking about whether the edition FAVORS it more.

Isnt it quite possible that people simply arent building/built to handle anything else? 6th Edition was incredibly shooting oriented, but 7E brought a lot more balance. I think Blood Angels players, as prolific as they were and their complaining caused anyone who DIDNT have an uber assault army to say "well if they cant do it..." in 6E and i dont think that head ache has left peoples heads.

Yet here I stand before you with a Dark Eldar force and an Astra Militarum force, both with shooting elements but both highly committed to close combat as our endgame. I look at the Space Marines and see another book where close combat is highly practical and Space Wolves? highly practical. So I wonder a LOT whether this is simply a function of the 5E Blood Angels fall from grace?