A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

The only problem with your list Bippity is that it uses more than one ally/detachment - I know it is legal but non-the -less more than a few tournaments do not allow it. Otherwise nice.

egorey wrote:

The only problem with your list Bippity is that it uses more than one ally/detachment - I know it is legal but non-the -less more than a few tournaments do not allow it. Otherwise nice.

guess I could switch the dark artisan formation out for a meadusa/ sslyth court bomb... but then would I have enough AT?
Maybe drop it and grab another 2 units of scourges with blaster/ heatlances?
Edit: no! I have it! Swooping hawks! They can wreck parking lots with haywire grenades! And grenade packs make short work of cover campers!

That would work well. You might want to change one squad of scourges to heat lances ( just in case you need to take down teqs). I also think two LG on the Grots are a bit meh now that they cost so much. Any extra points add shredders/blasters to warriors.

Your list is my style, btw. A few solid cc hammers and a lot of spped and flexibility.

Now an idea stolen from Mush ...

Reaver Spam

Haemonculus; Parasitee's Kiss; WWP 115
Succubus; Armour Of Misery; Archite's Glaive; WWP 145
2x 3 Grotesques 210
3 Mandrakes 36
3x 5 Warriors; Shredder; Raider; Dark Lances 330
6x 3 Reavers; Caltrops 378
Voidraven Bomber; Daerk Scythes 160
2 Talos; TL Splinter Cannon; Cronos; Probe 360
Ravager; 2 Dark Lances 125

Mush's idea ... flood the table with MSU units and force your opponent to overkill ... using two wave serpents to take down a 3 man reaver squad - profit. So survive two turns using reserves, BLOS. Then go for it with FNP.

Now Mush was even thinking dual CAD realspace and using 12 - yes !2 - squads of reavers. You start some - reserve others. You can take MSU wyches for troops with realspace benefits. Lots of nifty options with rending caltrops!So his list would be more like this ...

Dual CAD Realspace
Succubus; Armour Of Misery; Archite's Glaive; WWP 145
Heamnoculus; Archangel of Pain 95
3 Incubi: Klaivex; Raider; Venom; Dual SC 135
2x 5 Warriors; (one w/ shredder); Venom; Dual SC 215
10 x 3 Reavers; Heat Lance; Caltrops 730
2x 1 Razorwing; Dark Lances 280
2x 1 Ravager; Dark Lances 250

Mush reminded me of an interesting point - bikes can never be pinned. This list wills tart some bikes in reserve and the incubi in reserve. The extra bike squads can trickle in.

and finally the lols list with MSU reavers - you knew it was coming:  

Dual CAD Real Space Raiders

4x  1 Lhamaean, Venom Dual Splinter Cannons  300

5 Mandrakes 60

12x 5 Warriors, Blaster 660

6x 3 Reaver Jetbikes, Caltrops, Heat Lance 438
6x 1 Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons 390

So thirty-four units flooding the table. Twenty splinter cannons, twelve blasters, six heat lances and some baleblast for lols.  Keep a lot of units in reserve and just let them trickle in and spread out. Obviously you will multi-assault - wh0 cares about overwatch, eh.

Both of those are nice lists Egory. Personally I haven't come up with a list quite yet, i'm still formulating ideas.

MSU reavers give you a lot of scoring/denial power in maelstrom missions thanks to their mobility. They are mobile and cheap enough to be sacrificially used as blockers and obstructions (blocking the movement of Imperial Knights for example. They also create threat saturation as they are dangerous enough with caltrops and heatlances/blasters not to be ignored (if you ignore them they don't need to jink and fire at full BS). As a result they can draw fire away from the rest of your army. Finally because of their mobility, caltrops and heatlance/blaster even a single reaver can be a threat.

How does this dynamic affect serpent spam?

Serpents need to shoot the reavers, as they can destroy the serpents in assault with caltrops. However, if the serpents shoot the reavers they drop their shields leaving themselves vulnerable to AP1-2 weapons (your raiders/ravagers/razorwings). Jink needs to be declared when a shot hits, before you know whether it has penetrated or not. Also any penetrating hit could cause problems (weapon destroyed, stunned and immobalised are all problems for serpents. Does the serpent player take his chance from a single heatlance/blaster shot and not jink? Or does he play safe and jink? If he jinks, he is BS1 next turn significantly reducing his damage against the reavers (about 0.66 wounds per serpent against reavers with FNP 5+). Combine this with the fact that MSU reavers can easily position themselves at multiple angles, meaning if the serpents are to shoot the reavers with their shields they will need to turn to face them, potentially exposing their rear armour to other reavers and lances in the dark eldar army.

All of this forces a huge amount of cognitive strain on your opponent, there are so many factors and so many possible responses to the barrage of questions that you are asking him with all these reavers. After all the reavers only make up half the dark eldar army, which he hasn't even had time to think about!

I'm sure this will take a lot of practice to get to grips with but i'm hopeful.

Mush... that is a thing of beauty... just the constipated look on you opponent's face as he tries to decide if he wants to shoot an entire serpent's worth of Dakka at one of 12 63 point units, any of which can wreck his transport, is hilarious! That's only 575 points too... 695 if you strap on blasters/ heatlances...
I think you just made reaver sales skyrocket again!

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!

Mushkilla wrote:

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!

Have you mentioned this on the killing waveserpents page in tactics? If not you should! Fantastic idea and goes right along with Thor's point about msu and threat saturation.

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Mushkilla wrote:

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!

Have you mentioned this on the killing waveserpents page in tactics? If not you should! Fantastic idea and goes right along with Thor's point about msu and threat saturation.

No, the idea is not mature enough. I want to get some games in first.

So wanderingblade presented this above with explanation ...


10 Wraithguard
Archon w/WWP, Blaster, Shadowfield
Irrilyth
Spiritseers

This is pretty nasty for 327 points. You have a slew of options - including split fire which I use below - psychic buffs or psychic aggression. But there are a few other really good combos so lets look at a few.


Archon; Shadowfield; Blaster WWP
Muagan Ra
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery; 3 D-Cannons

Well here is a nasty little unit with Str10 blasts that is relentless, has spill fire and tanks. You do not want to assault as Maugan Ra will eat you alive. You can true shooting it but bit HQs tank like champs.

You like reavers right. So do I.

Autarch; Banshee Mask; Fusion Gun; Laaser Lance; Jetbike
6 Reavers; 2 Caltrops; Heat Lance

So this squad is 246 points but does it ever have punch. HoW - again gets around invisibility, hit and run, and good ink saves. So a St 6 AP2, a St 8 AP2, 4 Str 4 rending HoW, 2D6 St6 rending, 5 ST 6 attacks (autarch) and you are striking first -banshee mask. It goes on an on. Not a lot will survive this onslaught. And you get a +1 to your reserves.

And finally:

Archon Huskblade, Blaster, Shadowfield,  Soul Trap w/ WWP
Autarch, Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Banshee Mask
7 Harlequins; & Kisses; @ Fusion Guns

So it is 454 points but it has a tanking HQ, 3 fusion guns, a blaster and a ton of assault ... good luck handling it

Now you could balls to the wall and take:

Baharroth
Archon Huskblade, Blaster, Shadowfield,  Soul Trap w/ WWP
3 Grotesques

Well now Baharroth is interesting. Here we are spending 470 points but we get a two tanking characters, hit and run, fearless, haywire grenades some dakka. We also get blind and grenades and Bahroth can any point detach and drop elsewhere. This I find to be an interesting combo.

I like the idea of MSU reavers but ...realspace detachment can not take fortication, so no command relay.

undeadcatd wrote:

I like the idea of MSU reavers but ...realspace detachment can not take fortication, so no command relay.

Wow nice catch. I would think this is an oversight except the LoW slot is missing as well, while apparently the other latest detachments (GK, SW etc) all have that option. Weird.

So I never noticed that the fortification and LoW slot were specific to a CAD...especially that fortification slot! Good call undeadcatd!

Can the vauls support battery actually move? I thought it was artillery...kind of makes it pretty meh with those characters.


So I bought the Covens supplement and I'm excited about several options in there for sure. I probably won't be making 'tournament legal' lists though it could be morphed easily enough away from the formations I plan on using. I must also say that he relics in the coven supplement are heads over heels better than the main DE book. If you plan on using coven and haemies in your army, you should really investigate the coven book!

Lots of the relics make you more durable or a monster in a fight. For example there is the vexator mask that makes your opponent -5 initiative in a challenge against your haemie...pretty sweet though not super useful but at least is a low cost of 2 melta bombs. Another relic gives you IWND (4+) and can only be wounded by poison on a role of a 6+. Not too shabby. My real favorite though is The Nightmare Doll...I love it from a visual standpoint (need to craft a doll of somesort haha) and its rule. It adds 1 to any FNP rolls he makes AND it automatically negates the first wound with ID he suffers though it breaks the doll. It's a one time freebie that allows you to stay in the fight which is pretty nice, costed at 7 melta bombs so not overly terrible. Of course if you are going to be dumping points into a haemie like this you probably are going to dump more to make him super spiffy. This is tricky as there is no way to make him as hardy as you used to be able to. However, proper placement of him in a squad of say grots or the Talos/Cronos/Haemie combo formation allows him to stay pretty safe!

Stay tuned as I'm working on the next incarnation of what I want to try first for my DE!

I never noticed the lack of fortification for the realspace detachment. That is a bit of a let down. Leaves the bikes more exposed turn one and requires a bit more thought deploying - still quite doable but not quite as strong turn two . On another note I fielded my Talos list in preparation for the day that I sell them. I wanted a good last hurrah. It is Thanksgiving here so I had my turkey lucnch and then a game against Tau.

Succubus; Archite's Glaive; Blast Pistol; Haywire

3 Grots; Raider; Disentegrator; Aethersails; Nightshields
7 Ssylth; 2 Medusae; Raider; Disentegrator; Splihter Racks; Nightshields

2x 5 Kabalite Warriors; Shredder; Raider; Dark Lance

2x Razorwing Jetfightters; 2 Dark Lances
6 Reavers; 2 Caltrops; Heat Lance

Detachment
5x Talos; Chainflails (scouting)

The talos scouted - I did not outflank. Regardless by turn three they were eating through anything on the ground in range. Between Splinter fire and I had FIVE, and assault, which is wicked I threatened his whole back deployment - broadsides and hammerhead.

The razorwings actually survived a few turns as I went after his broadsides (they had interceptor). The reavers also did a little damage bfore they were taken out by SMS. Ignore cover broadsides hurt reavers big time. His Crisis presented more problems but the razors were actually quite efective once his broadsides were getting pounded - no more intercept huzzah.

Overall it was a good game. I did not need to jink all that badly - so the game went fairly well and ended in a draw. The disentegrators were pretty good until the raiders went down. My ssylth and talos took a lot of dakka - the major threats in his eye. I lost three talos by game's end and I lost half the ssylth squad.

The succubus I kept with the grots who struggled to close with crisis - of course. The list appears mobile but it is not terribly hard to knock out four transports for Tau and then the list becomes a lot slower, lol. He went fter the bikes and transports until he realized that those Taloi were going to hurt him badly.

I think the new coidex has some legs. It is not what I wanted to see but the few good units are improved - scouting talos in squads and reavers and grots. You just have to avoid the chaff.

Ok so here is the first look I'm looking at exploring for my own personal use. I have most of the prereqs for it already or they are on their way. The idea is a large double prong coven bomb that takes center stages and annihilates the enemy by sheer brutality.

Quote :

Formation: Dark Artisan
-Haemie (warlord)-nighmare doll, wwp, scissorhand
-Talos-ichor and SC
-Cronos-spirit Siphon

Formation: Grotesquerie
-Urien
-3 man grot squad
-5 man grot squad

CAD: Dark Eldar
-Archon-huskblade, shadowfield, wwp

-5 man warrior- blaster
*Venom-dual SC
-5 man warrior- blaster
*Venom-dual SC

Razorwing
5x Scourges-4 heat lances
5x Scourges- 4 heat lances

Voidraven (no missiles)


Fortification:
-Bastion-comms relay

Its not necessarily 'tourny legal' but it looks like fun to me!

The idea is to stick the 3 grots in the bastion and maybe the venoms as well to ensure I can't be tabled T1. T2 if everything goes to plan then the 5 grots with Urien and Archon and the talos/cronos/haemie will drop in near each other in order to buff the crap out of each other with +2 PfP turns and 4+ FNP. Ultimately this means that my grots have IWND, fear, and fearless the turn they arrive ontop of T5, 3W and 4+ FNP plus some randomly generate bonus...simply amazing.

Archon will tank wounds like a boss (he's expendable for the initial drop). Because of this I may switch him to carry a blaster so he can do something upon dropping at least. Scourges support with AT duty and the razorwing and voidraven do what they are meant to do (AI and AT respectively).

This list is boom or bust and would certainly be annihilated against IK armies due to stomp and D weapons. However, this looks like a bunch of fun and may be able to fight against 1-2 IK with a bunch of luck!


I'm also working on a more 'conventional' balanced DE list to compare when we focus on FA and the usual goodies DE employs in a more balanced fashion.

So I'm going to relist the build I think has future as an archtype for DE:

Dual CAD Real Space Raiders

4x 1 Lhamaean, Venom Dual Splinter Cannons 300

4 Mandrakes 48

12x 5 Warriors, Blaster 660

3 Reavers, Caltrop, Heat Lance, Arena Champion 83
5x 3 Reaver Jetbikes, Caltrops, Heat Lance 365
6x 1 Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons 390

So thirty-three units flooding the table and around 80 models. Twenty splinter cannons, twelve blasters, six heat lances and some baleblast for lols. Keep a lot of units in reserve and just let them trickle in and spread out. Obviously you will multi-assault - wh0 cares about overwatch, eh.

Note - as of now the lhamaean HQs are perfectly legal. If they are FaQed just use two archons, balster, haywire insttead. You lose two Venoms but meh.

You need the arena champion to have a warlord and get your trait. He starts in reserve.

Go ahead and try to proritize this list, lol. Good luck. By tuen three four I have FNP nad can camp objectives all over the table. Yes, no ObSec - I'll deal with that as realspace gives me better initial saves and fantastic MSU FA slots.

I think this list looks pretty terrifying - but as I said in the chat it is quite vulnerable to pie plate fire as you have lots of models (particularly Apoc templates) - I was thinking of a list with 2 Stompas or similar Ork superheavies with lots of guns being able to do a lot of damage if they get to fire first (I'm a big fan of the Skullhamma for taking off half an army per shot).

Its not legal though. Archons unlock the Court. Cant unlock the Court without one. That's how I see that. If you read it out loud how its supposed to be read its fairly obvious.

and yes losing 2 venoms on that wouldn't be the end of the world. not be a long stretch.

It is at this point absolutely legal the way the codex is written. s mentioned by more than a few TDCers it will not garner you friends but when we talk competitive play it is what it is. Kosing two vwenoms - as you mention J - is not a big deal in that list.

As for facing two stompas - i would rather have 33 units then ten units TBH. I still have six heat lances and twelve blasters. What the list does not have is dark lances. Even stompas can only target so many units a turn. Te fewer the units the better the match up for stompas. You will be tar pitting and sacrificing against those stompas but in a maelstrom mission you would have a chance.

so tonight i am testing this 2k list.
Realspace Raiders.

Archon: Blaster, huskblade, shadowfield, helm of spite, WWP. 200
4Sslyth. 100

10 Warriors: S.Cannon, Blaster, Raaider with Sails and S.Racks
10 Warriors: S.Cannon, Blaster, Raaider with Sails and S.Racks

12 Reavers with champion and 4 caltrops. 262
12 Reavers with champion and 4 caltrops. 262
12 Reavers with champion and 4 caltrops. 262
12 Reavers with champion and 4 caltrops. 262

Razorwing with Lances 140
Razorwing with Lances 140

1998/2000

first list with the new dex

wow. Forty-eight reavers - just wow.

So if you went against this ...


Commander, iridum armor, neuroweb jammer, puretide chip, x2 twinlinked missile pods, target lock, drone controller, x2 marker drones  // and an Aun'va
sitting between
3x 6 sniper drones, 3 marksmen
then add troops
3x 6 Fire warriors, shas'ui, emp grenades
3 crisis suits, dual fusion guns, x2 target locks
2 crisis suits, dual fusion guns
1 crisis suit, fusion, flamer
then add
Riptide, eathcaste, heavy burst, stims, vt, ewa
2x 6 pathfinders w/ rail

this would put kink in your plans ... overwatch w/ supporting fire ... two buffs a turn ... pretty much auto pass pinning/morale, AP2, no cover (jink), AA for flyers ... etc. Not to mention relentless, etc.
'Course I'm tailoring a tad ... lol.

just a tad?!

that would be an absolute nightmare to face but i think beatable if i can get a couple of things my way t1 and 2

Well how did the Reaver game go.

I'd like to know as well. I had been thinking about making a reaver-heavy list, but putting some heat lances and power weapons/aggies in the units. Reason being, if they're going to crack open vehicles and be that close to what comes out of them, they may as well charge and do some damage instead of being the one's that get charged.

Reavers can now be extremely versatile, being very fast, good at shooting, and decent at melee on the charge(especially with favorable drugs rolls).

@Egorey: I don't think I understand why you're taking the 12x warrior squads with a blaster, since none of them are taking a venom. Are they footslogging? 10 of them riding in other people's venoms? If the latter is the case, that stops them from being able to start in reserve, and forces others into footslogging.

Aside from that, I think the massive MSU style could definitely work, except in kill point games. In kill point games you'll get brutalized. In other game styles, you'll be working with LOTS of target saturation. I actually think a list like this, except using primarily reavers might be pretty crazy/good. Example:

2x 1 Lhamaean w/ Dual Cannon Venoms

1x 5 Mandrakes

6x 5 Kabalite Warriors w/Dual Cannon Venoms

1x 3 Reavers w/ Arena Champion, Agonizer, Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance
11x 3 Reavers w/ Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance

Still has 29 units, and over 80 models, but none of them are footslogging, and all of them are packing a punch. That many units of reavers makes it sort of hopeless trying to target them. If your opponent has big units that put out a bunch of ignores cover shots at once, they're going to be wasting their effective fire on small 3-man units, or expendable 5-man warrior squads.

To put the differences in perspective, my list basically trades 2 venoms and 6 units of Blaster warriors for 6 units of Heat Lance/Caltrop Reavers.

Lol, betray. I think your list is fine but 60 wariors - evn walking - are still threat. The list is about msu. You can load six of those squads on Venoms you know --- the point is that thewre is no ObSec - so really where you put the venoms hardly matters ... The point is to spam ten of them.

egorey wrote:

Lol, betray. I think your list is fine but 60 wariors  - evn walking - are still threat. The list is about msu. You can load six of those squads on Venoms you know --- the point is that thewre is no ObSec - so really where you put the venoms hardly matters ... The point is to spam ten of them.

I understand. I was pointing out that if you took 8 instead, you could still have 29 units, and 6 more units of reavers just by shuffling 6 venoms into the dedicated transports slots. And yes, footsloggers are a threat, but not nearly the threat that cluster caltrop/heat lance reavers are.