A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

I think grots are good but not as over the top as some think. Lets look … you get liquefier guns but a bit expensive and you get ID weapons. That is good. But they are leadership 4 and you will not get a fearless bonus until turn five so unless you take the formation to make them fearless you need a babysitter. Also fewer fit in a raider …

Or you can take 9 Sslyth + archon for LD in a raider with splinter racks and aether sails! You have 21 T5 wounds and 27 twin-linked poison shots! This is a good unit.

I think one way DE will play is reserves for sure. And we will have units that rush forward with hammer squads and units that specialize - scourges/reavers. Aether sail raiders are going to quite good  -36" movement  - so we decide how to fill them.

I also saw some people questioning ravagers in chat. Well the HS slot has some room ( if you take talos formation iit is not even going to beused probably. So ravs lost some luster already before the new codex. Now we lost aerial assault. And the cost is up. Does it make them unusable? I would say no. Run all disintegrator cannons and night shields for 125 points for 9 S5 AP2 shots. An AV11 tank with 3+ jink is a significant improvement (ignores S4, halves the effect of S5). And honestly, you want your opponent firing at the ravarger(s) if you are fielding a lot of boats, don't you?  I'm not sold on DE needing heavy support at all but 1 or 2 ravagers for massed AP2 doesn't seem bad.

The other questions have been all about the loss of AP2. A succubus: archite glaive, armour of misery, WWP is 145 points. You can DS accurately with a unit of choice BUT she is fragile albeit effective on the charge. Worth it? You decide. Certainly if using her as ally to Eldar there are units she would slot nicely into. Need I say which.

Now theatacat asked in chat how to build a 600 point list apparently that is a standard high school tournament format. Who knew. So here you go buddy:

Archon: Blaster 75

8 Mandrakes 96

Warriors: Blaster; Raider Dissentagrator 110
Warriors: Blaster; Venom 2 SC 120

Scourges: 4 Heat lances/Haywire 120
Reavers: Champ, Caltrops 73

Heat lances might be better for high AV (LRs etc., but with the blasters as well haywire should also be considered. Lances might have a bit more flexibility but the range is poop. Anyway for 600 points the list has a lot of answers so it is workable at least.

We looked at those formations earlier too - five poutflanking Talos are pretty hard to pass on if you really want a formation. So yeh - all valid points guys.

Liquifier Guns for 15 points each is a trap. Ignore and move on. They always want a character with them anyway. Their big weakness is getting there - providing your opinion doesn't have good Ignores Cover, a jinking Night Shielded raider's got a good chance, plus there's now the Webway Portal for one turn of praying for good dice. Slightly meta dependent, but the flesh gauntlets could be really great and that's why I'd get excited. Slight downside in that close combat characters worth escorting are a little rare on the ground, unless you brought Karandras along for the ride.

One option is to use them as a Farseer guard for some really aggressive daemon summoning. No idea if that idea is good, but it's the potentially nastiest idea I could think of.

Quote :

Slight downside in that close combat characters worth escorting are a little rare on the ground, unless you brought Karandras along for the ride.

Or fuegan! My fuegan grots got a huge boost (if not much else did..) but yeah I'm working on a double grot list atm that might end up with both phoenix lords in tow.

Okay so i am annoyed and need the Dark City's advice.  I realize that this is not exactly the perfect plce to put it so mods can move it if they want.  

Below is a list i have been morphing and after some fairly annoying trial runs in which several flaws became apparent, I am now making a massive change to it in order to give the list the ability to make the enemy pay for focusing on the Militarum Tempestus portion of the force.  Right now there is just no reason not to try and gank my very important Scion Command Squads.  Tournaments arent allowing threee Detachments.  so i need a really impressive Red herring.  Enter the blob squad.

You all know how it works and you've all probably been annoyed by its potency at some point.  I am adding it to the force and conceding that the Militarum Tempestus force on its own is perhaps better with more of their brethren around than they are on their own. Also means more painting.  Not excited about THAT.  Lol.

Without further ado, here is the updated list.  Comments are welcome.

Total Roster Cost: 1999

Combined Arms Detachment
115pts 4 Tempestus Scion, + 3 meltaguns
        1 Tempestor Prime (Warlord)

125pts 4 Tempestus Scion, + 4 Meltaguns
        1 Tempestor Prime

126pts 7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hotshot Volleyguns)
       1 Tempestor

80pts       Taurox Prime (Battle Cannon, Auto Cannons)

126pts 7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hotshot Volleyguns)
       1 Tempestor

80pts       Taurox Prime (Battle Cannon, Auto Cannons)

126pts 7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hotshot Volleyguns)
       1 Tempestor

80pts       Taurox Prime (Battle Cannon, Auto Cannons)

126pts 7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hotshot Volleyguns)
       1 Tempestor

80pts       Taurox Prime (Battle Cannon, Auto Cannons)

       
1079 Points

Allied Detachment 1
80pts Company Command Squad (4 x Flamers)

75pts 1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2 Divination)
75pts 1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2 Divination)
50pts 1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 1 Divination)

25pts 1 Ministorum Priest
25pts 1 Ministorum Priest
25pts 1 Ministorum Priest

210pts 3 Hydras

370pts 40 Infantry (4x Power Axes, 4 x LasCannons)
5 Platoon Command

935 Points




Warlord traits
1 Fearless
2 Warlord has TL krak grenades at range, and Tank/Monster Hunter with Melta Bombs/Krak in melee.
3 Stubborn for MT units within 12"
4 MT re-roll reserves; Warlords unit scatters only d6"
5 non-volley Hot shot weapons within 12" of the warlord gain 6" of max range if they don't move.
6 +1 leadership (makes Tempestor prime leadership 10 and he has the Clarion Voxnet ability so an 18" bubble of his LD for Fear, Pinning and Morale checks.
Orders
1 TL shooting
2 Preferred Enemy shooting (re-roll 1's to hit and wound)
3 Crusader USR (+1 Die for Running, +d3 to Sweeping Advance)
4 Fleet USR (Re-roll one or both dice for charge distance and running)
5 Non-volley hot shot weapons may only fire once each, but gain sniper and pinning.  Unit can't assault this turn.
6 Adds rending to shooting against MCs or vehicles
War Hymms:  Re-roll unit saves in close combat; or Priest has Smash; or unit re-rolls to wound

It is late but I did get in a game this evening ... I played

Archon; WWP
Court of the Archon; 4 Medusae; Venom; Dual SC
Autarch; Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Banshee Mask; Jetbike; Mantle

2x 5 Warriors; Venom; Extra Cannon
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes; Shuriken Cannons

2x 5 Scourge; 4 Haywire Blasters
5 Scourge; 4 Heat Lances
2x Razorwing Jetfighter; 2x Dark Lances
Crimson Hunter

Voidraven Bomber; Dark Scythes
Night Spinner; Crystal Targeting Matrix

My opponent had a cent bomb - tiggy w/ cents  joined by a GK libbie and Draigo - do not ask ...
The rest was termies, two DKs and some GKSS a T-fire - the usual. A decent list but hardly OP. There wae was no invisibility fortunately. We don't like that at our LGS betwen friends anyway - but.

I was went second and just hid stuff as best I could - some bikes my autarch some warriors in venoms, one scourge squad -- the cent star took out a squad of bikes and the termies exploded a venom. Not a great start but I could move out of the way of most of his stuff and fired shots at the star which did little. So turns one and to I lost a few squads but I did get a maelstorm mission objective and some warriors and one venom survived along with my autarch. So was not terrible. On the second tuen I lost even more as DKs shunted and did damage and centstar redeployed - gate. But I survived and it was turn two when things went south for my opponent. Almost all my reserves came in. So despite losing most of three squads and doing minimal damage it was now game on.

Let me say that the Razorwings, Bomber, Hunter, Night Spinner and Scourges just made a mess of his troops ... terminators and DKs went poof in four turns and he only had Draigo and Tiggy left from his centstar. So I lost a lot turn one and two but but by the end of turn two - just by surviving - I really had him hurt. Unfortunately I also was behind in points by a fair margin so I had to make up or table - not likely.

So I cannot say the list is fantastic ... my medusae bomb finished off the GKSS and did very little else. Well the venom hurt the t-fire actually and with help I was able toi finish it off. My autarch hurt some leftover termies - was lucky. My scourges and flyers handled the DKs pretty well. The list felt balanced although clearly it is not. I liked the bomber - dropping a bomb  - leaving and returning is pretty nifty. Did not miss dark lances on it but I had fusion and heat lances and haywire in the list so ... at turn six I finally caught up and actually pulled a rabbit out of my hat.

As a first run test - I enjoyed it. It is kind of a mishmash because I used what I had and what I could proxy ... I like the new codex. Plays well in maelstrom. As I test out a few units I will update.

Do you think your list was very reserves dependent? What do you think might have happened if you got nothing until the last possible turn? I'm asking becuase my reserve rolls are often awful

First - I have an autarch - so the likelihood of not getting a lot of reserves in turn two is quite minimal. It is not a question of reserve dependent. My opponent is DSing termies and gating and I need to react to that. He is going to shunt his DKs - committing them.  This is what I want. I get to set up in response when he does that and my key units are safe. I know I will lose a few units - but if I survive I have a match so careful use of placement, cover, jink - all will help me do that. I did not commit all my scoring on the table. I just tried to lure him where I wanted him to go so I could react strongly - that is the key to null deployment. Noq he had a strong list - a firebase - durable DSing troops - fast moving DKs and gating centstar - I knew it would tough and it was. But that is what makes a fun game.

To win matches in 40k you must understand null deployment - you need to bait your opponent to where you want hem - but you need to have at least one unit left on the table when you arrive - so it is tricky. You always need something fairly durable - so a jink save or an autarch in this case was my solution. The unit of scourges and jetbikes were my bait - I knew I would likely lose some squads but hoped for minimal damage - it was not a gamble - it was the plan.

The other issue we will face is mass wave serpents. This is really a pickle so we almost have to null deploy. I don't blame an eldar playr for taking six - the wave serpent is totally OP nad six of then tuen one will mess up your entire army in one shooting phase. So we don't want to give out opponent an entire army to shoot at  - do we?

read this:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.ca/2014/06/null-deployment-7th-edition.html

thanks for explaining

So if I get everything painted and ready I'm testing this next week:

== Deldar Realspace Detachment Shenanigans ==
Succubus Archite Glaive; Armour of Misery; Parasite's Kiss; WWP 150
Autarch; Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Banshee Mask; Jetbike; Mantle 150
4 Incubi: Klaivex; Raider; Venom; Dual SC 155
5 Mandrakes 60
2x 5 Warriors; Venom; Extra Cannon 210
3 Windrider Jetbikes 51
2x 5 Scourge; 4 Haywire Blasters 240
3x Razorwing Jetfighter; 2x Dark Lances 420
Crimson Hunter 160
2 Talos; Chainflails 250
== 1850 ==

List is a bit different from the lst. I might not start the incubi in the venom. The succubus will join regardless but I might field an empty venom. The talos are the main addition ... my scourges last game were okay but I felt three squads one too many. I have DLs and a hunter and a bomber anyway. The talos can also take out vehicles with ease.

The talos might look strange in this list BUT start them forward and march them up quickly and you control the center. In a lot of missions your opponent has to move forward to grab an objective and regardless they are a ' must deal with this ' target that are quite durable. I might even split them up - probably will - into squads of one as I'm not using the HS and they are great lures in a null deployment list

There are lots of little tricks and nuances in the list and a fair number of deployment options so I can react to how my opponent deploys and take advantage. Also interesting is that I'm finding a lot of lists just do not have enough AA to cope with more than one or two flyers. Four is flyer saturation and can be quite effective.

I want to test against an Eldar or Necron list and see how it goes. I'll see if I can set up a match.

4 planes in the sky with an Autarch to guide them in. That'll be interesting. I have my honest doubts as to whether the Talos will last long since they and the Venoms will be the most worthwhile targets to start. there's not much of a target priority conundrum there, really. something to think about?

Holy frejole's they totally bones us on the Crucible wording! Helvexis is right. How could they get it this WRONG! Ugh.

J - well depends what I start but yes - Talos 'should' be prime targets so I need to hide them as best I can. I can have three venoms, mandrakes, taloi, bike squad maybe one scourge squad on the table to start. So it will not be that easy for my opponent I hope. We will see. I really felt that the taloi would have helped me last game more than the spinner or extra scourge squad. I gave up the first turn and half the second pretty much and fell behind - well it was the plan to do so - but playing catch up can be tricky.

Betray made a few good points in chat last night as well. I decided to drop the bomber for an extra razor and add in mandrakes for the extra windrider squad which I do not need. Still five OS units only one OS on the table. I'm hoping the mandrakes will help a bit as well - so much depends on terrain. If I can get some decent cover and ruins etc., my mandrakes have 2+ cover. My taloi will also have cover. Of course against wave serpents and tau - well - we know.

You're using the Realspace Raiders detachment, no? No objective secured for your troops then...

yes - and yes - my bad --- no OS - well the jetbikes but better saves reroll warlord and by turn three all the FNP rolls too and on turn four - yahoo - FC.

Now if wanted pure DE - I would run this:

==Eldar Realspace Detachment Shenanigans ==
Succubus Archite Glaive; Armour of Misery; WWP 145
3 Incubi: Klaivex; Venom; Dual SC 135
2x 5 Warriors; Venom; Extra Cannon 210
5 Scourge; 4 Haywire Blasters 120
5 Scourge; 4 Heat Lances 120
6 Reavers; 2 Heat Lances; 2 Caltrops 146
3x 1 Razorwing Jetfighter; 2x Dark Lances 420
------------------------------
Haemonculus; 70
2x 4 Grotesques; Aberration; Agoniser; Raider; Dark Lance; Enhanced Aethersails 480
== 1850 ==

Okay here is your WARNING. The above will hit like a ton of brcks. It has ZERO ObSec though. It will be darned tricky to play. By turn three I will have a slew of hard hitting units in your face capable of quick redeploy if necessary. Stuff will be dropping in and flying off. So the trick is just to survive turn two. Will it work? I really do not know. At this point I'm theorizing based on my first match. I do think it would be a blast to play though.

ObSec is a two-handed sword. We are certainly at a disadvantage without it in missions. However, everything still scores - we just have to ensure we are alone on that crucial objective and that we target our opponent's ObSec fast. I have a slew of advantages not using it - Hunter from the Shadows - reroll traits- fearless Grots - six FA. These are major buffs.  Maelstrom missions are good for this list due to the speed and destructive power and the ability to quickly move from objective to objective. Interesting tradeoff for sure.

The Dark Eldar book Warlord traits are pretty pants. Even with a reroll you might be better off with the Strategic chart in the rulebook, I certainly don't think getting a reroll on it's worth giving up everything.

I don't think giving up ObSec for Hunter from the Shadows is worth it either. A lot of the Dark Eldar army doesn't want to be on the table 1st turn anyway. The reduced numbers of what is ideally wants to be out of LoS, and that should be fairly easy.

It's basically all about the 6 Fast Attack choices and here I struggle to argue with you because that's basically where all the good stuff is. No one really wants to be taking lots of troop choices, not for fighting with, if you've not ObSec you take a couple of units, let them pew pew pew a bit and just take lots of hate inducing Fast Attack. So good deal. But only if you want them.

Where it falls down is having two non ObSec detachments. Both of those would be better off allied to some CW Eldar and we all know it.

Thoughts on Objective Secure

Recently I have been playing a lot of games with my grey knights using their nemesis strike detachment. The formation trades in objective secure for rites of teleportation (roll for reserves on turn 1, battle focus  on the turn a unit deepstrikes). I haven't really found  the lack of objective secure to be a problem. I think there are a few important questions to ask yourself.

How resilient are my objective secure units?

This comes down to two things, numbers and survivability. If you don't have many objective secure units, and they are not survivable, then there isn't much point taking objective secure.

How mobile are my objective secure units?

This is where dedicated transports with objective secure shine, they are cheap and are very mobile meaning they will get to use their objective secure rule a lot more than most other troops. Raiders/venoms benefit from this massively.

How expendable are my objective secure units?

Contesting often leaves units exposed and vulnerable to retaliation, you don't want to put a unit that is not expendable in a vulnerable position. For example kabalite warriors prefer to be at range where they can inflict casualties on your opponent from a safe distance.

What is the offensive capability of my troops?

In the case of grey knights, my troops are terminators, they are absolutely lethal thanks to AP3 force weapons and hammer hand. They slaughter most things in assault. If they are close enough to contest a unit then they are close enough to shoot and assault it meaning that unit more often than not will die. As a result objective secure is a moot point.

On the flip side if my opponent tries to steal an objective held by my terminators, it's pretty much guaranteed that the unit he uses to steal with objective secure will die the following turn. This is ideal as terminators are slow so they prefer it when enemies come to them. In the long run this benefits me.

Dedicated transports are an example of the other spectrum of this, where they have almost no damage output, so objective secure gives them a lot of utility.

Hope that helps.

Yep - put nicely mush, ty - should be noted that if building a list without ObSec you need strong assault elements to clear objectives - my proposed list has incubi, two grot units and a reaver unit for just that purpose. All three units are tasty - Fearless/FNP/Rampaging grots with ID and FC by turn three - yes. Klaivax incubi with succubus glaive for a ton of AP2 attacks at initiative - tasty.

When looking at th realspace list with no ObSec we have to also consider how DE plays now. We want to hold off a bit till turn three when suddenly a lot of bonuses from PfP kick in. Reaserves are now a critical element in our lists. We wen from alpha strike to beta strike. How we deploy with our mobile force and how we maintain proper range for maximum damage to our opponent and minimal damage in return is going to determine who wins these match ups.

Reavers are good but I will mention this ...
White Scar bikers have HoW s% attacks too. They have scout, they have krak. No one thinks them that OP without a hammer HQ. They even get an assault bike and can combat squad. So yes, reavers are good but lets not overstate their prowess either (apologies in advance to mush, lol).

Now reavers have some very good uses - linebreaker, grabbing objectives, going after devs, long fangs et all. But their shooting is woeful. In assault - if they get the charge and if there is no dangerous terrain, assail, etc., up - yes HoW rending rocks. I think they are good - but I think we need to purpose them in our list properly and not look at them as some kind of crutch unit.

Reavers still havent moved me. I'm still thinking about them, still pondering them but as you put many battles inthe rear view, you have a lot of access to memories of how things played against you as well as in your hands and sometimes those memories aren't impressive.


Reavers hold some potential? I'll admit I havent bent my full will into viewing all the units as i find the book structure distracting and my current work and home situation has squeezed me badly for time. But though i can see some Reaver potential i am just not moved yet. Maybe i should test them and see...

Greetings fellow Archons, Succubi, and Haemonculi!

So its finally time that I got to my first impressions of the codex proper (not going to talk about the supplement since I haven't seen it yet). So I would like to first begin by stating that I got the iPad edition because I was impatient and didn't want to wait for my FLGS to get their copy in (they were delayed). So I took the dive and bought it for my iPad mini (conveniently I won it at a conference while I was in grad school!) I must say, if all you care about is the rules, it is a good way to get the codices because the pages hot link to codex rules and also give you relevant BRB rules as well...super nice. I still miss the feeling of a codex in hands though, but oh well.

Anyways...


I'm not going to delve into every nook and cranny on this post but I will hit most of the units if at least talking about categories (hq,troops, etc) and what I see there currently. WARNING this is long…


HQ
Wow...things got very different here. This is good and bad. I must say the wargear being so limited has really made it extremely difficult in deciding what HQs I want to use. Do I want an Archon but no ap2 but have a nice invuln (though pricey) or do I want a squishier succubi that gives me ap2? That is one of the main questions I keep asking myself looking at the HQ selection. I like combat oriented HQs and the archon had been my one and only with a token haemie occasionally to boost PfP. However I can throw that concept out the door. Archon and Succubus are both good characters in their own right.  I think you could get away using them interchangeably for a combat unit...really comes down to your preference in AP2.

Then we have the haemie. He is nice in that he boosts a PfP turn for a unit he is with...this is super nice for certain deepstriking assault units that need that extra punch that PfP gives you later. Furthermore, the haemie is T4 which is also nice but not all that noteworthy. If you take a hemie I'd imagine you'd be wanting to use him for his PfP boosting and the fun weapons/tools of torment that he has access to. There are some nifty options in there that could go well with grot squads and the like.

Out of the base 3 HQ choices, not a single one wins me over as MUST play. They can all carry the WWP and they all have different wargear options that can set them apart from one another. I feel like its really down to your army on how you go here.

As for special characters, we have 3: Urien, Lelith, Drazhar. Personally the only one I feel may be worth it is Urien and MAYBE Lelith....and that's only because she ignores armor saves and is cheaper than before. I just can't believe they gave her +1 WS for a warlord trait...so useful... >_> . Anyways I'm going to move to Urien since I see the most useful of the characters. His great ability is to make the PfP boosting ability that the haemie has a 12" bubble bonus...awesome! This is great if you plan on keeping him near other units that could use the boost. He is also T5 which is great as well as IWND and FNP (4+) AND a 4++...that's just nasty. I'm thinking about using him in my army. I just think Urien has a bunch of good utility for being a bonus master and good in cc with a nice ichor injector which is pretty sweet (fleshbane and on 6 causes ID). He fits right at home with some grots.


Lastly, we have the Court of the Archon. As you should know by now this unit got so much better by simply not needing certain models in the unit. You have full freedom of choice. The big winners I feel in this unit are medusae and sslyth as they are solid however are points heavy. I see these being best deployed along side an Archon with a WWP and go hunting.



TROOPS
Well guys I'm not going to lie. Wyches got kicked pretty hard. Personally I used them as suicide AT squads with HWG...now they are really good at killing weak infantry as all the special weapons are AP5. I probably won't be using them anytime soon, but who knows maybe their is hope...but I doubt it considering they didn't get cheaper at all.

That leaves warriors. Solid as always, cheaper though SC got more expensive offsetting the savings. Stick these guys in a raider or venom and do as you always did...gunboat it. Splinter racks work for all splinter weapons now so that may be worth taking though is pricey once you add in nightshields. Nightshields giving stealth is pretty sweet in my opinion as I'll gladly take an improved jink for our floating paper boats.


ELITES
This is a fairly crowded slot. We have Incubi, Mandrakes, Wracks, and Grotesques...all of which are not bad by any means. Incubi still deal out a ton of ap2 attacks and at average strength. If you liked using Incubi previously you'll be happy that not a ton has changed minus loosing powers for the klaivex and a decent points drop. Personally I don't use them because they die pretty easily for a still pricey unit. However, they can drop it like its hot real quick and fast.

Mandrakes...these guys are so much better than before. Cheaper and 4+ cover automatically with lots of deployment options makes these guys an interesting choice. They aren't great at shooting and they aren't great at assault, but in this hybrid form and lots of BRB rules these guys might actually see some play time for some people. One thing I see as an interesting idea is to perhaps use them in venoms (now that they are FA choices as well) and use them to baleblast people and get into position as a counter assault unit. Lots of deployment options as I said so its really down to your army and play style if you want to use them.

Wracks. They are still the neat T4 guys they were before with lots of poison assault stuff. I find the Ossefactor to be hilarious and what I would equip them with if I were to use them (probably only with the help of the coven supplement though). These guys ultimately don't shine especially over the other options for elites but if you like them then go for it. I think they will be more useful with the coven codex.

Grots...OMG AWESOME SAUCE. These guys stayed the same points and gained so much. They have access to poison 4+ that IDs on wounds of 6. At S5 you will generally be rerolling to wound as well against normal infantry. These guys are just huge winners. I loved them last edition and they got better so of course I already received 4 more rat ogres for conversion work to field more! I can't say enough about these guys honestly. You still need to watch a really crappy Ld but lets be serious you are attaching something that is awesome to these guys whether DE or Eldar. I think units of 4 in a boat are still great or even larger pack of the guys if you really want to go for super unit status.


EDIT: I forgot trueborn and bloodbrides. I was never a fan last edition really. They are cheaper this edition I believe, but ultimately compete against a solid set of choices in the elites where we have need to spend points else where at times. Trueborn in venoms with blasters is the classic use and probably will stay that way. Wyches got bad so bloodbrides followed as well.

FAST ATTACK
Even more crowded for us (though alleviated by the new detachment if you go that route), we have scourges, hellions, reavers, beastpack, raider, venom and the razorwing. Scourges are great utility gun units. Quick and carrying a ton of special weapons I recommend we look here for our AT abilities. Heat lances and haywire blasters are what people will be arming these guys with. Personally, I think heat lances have more utility as they can hurt heavy infantry very well which is nice when you face Nids and other armor light armies. I see value in both for sure though.

Hellions. Same use as last edition just cheaper essentially. I really don’t have anything to say about these guys.
Reavers. These guys got interesting. I’d say these guys best fill a utility unit roll which I think was their roll last edition as well. Need AT? Got it. Need counter assault? Definitely got it now. Fast mover? For sure. I think units of 6 will be the most useful with 2 caltrops and/or 2 heat lances depending on what you want on them.
Beastpack is now a different squad all together. I actually think they are still usable since you will ultimately want to take 2+ squads to saturate the field with targets. That’s how I would consider using them at first glance. Multiple packs running around harassing the enemy. Let’s put it this way the Kymera costs the same in points as a wych…and is as good in assault and at S4/T4 with beast movement.
Now we also have our transports as FA choices. I would only ever take the raider if I wanted to put eldar in them. I would certainly take venoms though. I don’t need to pay the squad tax that they would have needed otherwise. I will probably be running warriors in raiders leaving my venoms searching for occupants…thus I’ll just run them as empty gunboats!
Lastly, there is the razorwing. It’s the same as before essentially just cheaper and now FA! I’d gladly run these as they are great against infantry and what I recommend using them for.

HEAVY SUPPORT
We have 4 options here: Talos, Cronos, Ravager, and Voidraven. First off…OMG TALOS IN SQUADS!!! Second, OMG CRONOS 4+ FNP BOOST! I will certainly be using my guys with much more happiness now! I recommend these guys highly!  Talos will be used as beat sticks and Cronos will be nice for an army that values synergy between units for sure. . I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) the way smash is worded allows for the CC wargear he can take such as the ichor injector to be ap2 since it is still a CC attack...aweome!
Ravagers…lost aerial strike but ultimately keeps its firepower but at an increased cost if you want lances. I wasn’t into them personally last edition because I wanted to be different and now I’m glad I went that route. Still a good AT unit just not as mobile as previously.
Lastly, we have the bomber. It got more expensive for some reason while getting worse armor…can’t really see what happened there at all. I want to like it simply because it’s AT/AA abilities are amazing. Personally I wouldn’t ever take missiles as they don’t help AT all that much. We desperately need AT/AA and I think this guy will ultimately see some use when supported by razorwings in an air force style list. I might try to use it to support my units in heavier AT duty such as knights and other aircraft, but I’m hesitant on it.

SUMMARY
I believe there are a good amount of play style options that the dex offers and I think ultimately is a good codex that fits in well with the majority of codices (read not eldar). I’m excited to give it a try and use the coven boosts! As we further dissect the new codex over the next months we will get more detailed for sure and how things pan out.



I would like to finish with a list I came up with a couple nights ago. It’s a work in progress and ultimately depends on how the coven supplement works out…need to get my hands on it to really examine the options there.

For 1850 pts I’m thinking of:

Quote :

DE Special Detachment from Codex:
Archon (agonizer, clone field, soul trap, animus vitae, and wwp) -170pts
Urien Rakarth- 140 pts

8 Grots (no upgrades-liquifiers are a trap)

10 warriors (SC) in boat with boat (splinter racks and nightshield)-180
10 warriors (SC) in boat with boat (splinter racks and nightshield)-180

5 scourges (4 heat lances)- 120pts
5 scourges (4 heat lances)- 120 pts
2x Venoms (dual SC) -65 pts each

Voidraven Bomber 160pts

Coven Formation
Talos/Cronos/Hamie -370 pts
-ichor injector, SC/spirit syphon/flesh gauntlet and wwp

So this is actually a list that could easily go full null deployment without batting an eye. I would probably leave the gunboats and venoms on the field for turn 1 and deepstrike the rest. Lots of ID possibilities. The archon is a ton of points…not sure I’m ok with that yet. Like I said in my first impressions, none of the HQs stand out except for Urien who joins the grots in this list. The archon ultimately brings the wwp for the big grot squad with urien. I couldn’t bring myself to pay more points for the shadowfield in a list like this, but could be possible if I drop the voidraven and add an aegis or bastion with comms relay which this list really needs. You run out of points quickly when you want to squeeze in so much when running 2 wwp ‘bombs.’ The talos cover formation is an actual squad per the formation special rules and would deepstrike near to urien for that PfP boost and to boost the grots FNP to 4+. Scourges give me AT ability and venoms give more dakka for AI. A lot of points on upgrades in this list…which is very different for me. I’m usually a minimalist. I’m not sure how much the Archon should be tooled up…I think that the huskblade is useless now though and went for the agonizer build with soul trap to prey on enemy characters with easy of wounding anything I want with potential rerolls to wound once the trap gets going some. Talos gets ichor injector for fleshbane and ID on 6’s to wound…all at AP2 if I’m not mistaken which is great when you face WKs muhahaha (assuming I don’t poison it to death first).

I’d be more comfortable if I could have a comms relay and thus 2k might be a better choice for this type of list. To scale it down and not lose the much needed AT I might limit the grots down to 6. This allows for an Aegis with relay.  Thoughts?

I like most of your thoughts. You forgot truborn, btw. I think also that the coven detachment will prove winners and be in most tournament lists. For instance you can get two squads of fearless grots - no LD worries. You can outflank taloi. Lots of goodies there. As for certain FoC slots being overcrowded - well that is where coven detachments could help too.

J and I were mulling over an archtype today - null deployment much like Betray's list here:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10227-betray-s-first-7e-list-1850-null-deployment-option

The idea is archom and haemonculus w/ wwp and venoms for the fear bomb backed up by allied Legion ...

De Primary Realspace Raiders

Archon; Shadowfield; Huskblade; Soultrap; Archangel of Pain; Raider; Disintegratpr; Aether Sails 210
Haemonculus; Armour of Misery 95

3 Mandrakes 36
2x 9 Mandrakes 216

2x Kabalite Warriors; Venom; Dual Splinter Cannons 210

2x Razorwings; 2 Dark lances 280

2 Talos; TL Splinter Cannon; Ichor Injectors; Cronos; Spitit Vortex  370

Fortification

Imperial Bastion; Comms Relay; Void Shield 120

Legion of the Damned Detachment

2x 5 Legion of the Damned;  Meltagun;, Multi-melta; Combi-melta  310

very simple archtype ... very difficult to defend against
An option that is overlooked is the fear bomb - one archon and- one haemie with archangel of pain   and armour of misery plus one farseer w/  psychic shriek - this could crush certain lists. Adding in Eldar will allow abominations on the table top ( like the old invisible beaststar) so I'm not gung ho on going that route though for top tournaments expect to see some lists planning on abuse in many forms with combos and wwps, etc.

And finally I added very weird idea - allied legion of the damned ...

This unit ignores cover and has the tools to destroy wave serpents with ease. Kit them out to handle hat we lack in pure DE. They are relentless, they re-roll their deep-strike scatter, and they ignore cover and they have 3+ inv. In a list already built for null deployment - well what do we lose?

3 Razorwings is powerful anti-horde action and at least half way decent anti-air. I am generally not a fan of Lances, but I suppose if you are going to the skies, there are worse choices.

Attempt to construct a new DelDar deathstar no 327

10 Wraithguard
Archon w/WWP, Blaster, Shadowfield
Irrilyth
Spiritseers

It lands on the battlefield and probably slags something utterly. Possibly two somethings, Irrilyth has Split Fire after all. The Spiritseers get Invisibility, which makes shooting the unit difficult. Irrilyth has hit and run so it can't be tied down. Sure, it lacks pace. But as long as it has Invisibility and a Shadow Field it's very resilient and it will keep pumping that firepower out. Could probably also do the Fear Bomb - bit of luck you could even use it for summoning Daemons - hell, go mad, take Sanctic, pray for Gate to keep mobile... or Hammerhand to turn the WG into vehicle killers on the charge... Lots of possible tools if you shove a million psykers into a unit, drop it into enemy territory, and make it immortal.

Possibly.

Very nice combo Blade - kudos.

Having only had three games with new DE I cannot really say I find them impressive. You have essentially two choices - use a lot of reserves and try to roll a flank aggresively or deploy and try to roll a flank aggressively. There are some very tough match ups out there. My budy's Tau, I now will pick me apart - he will use an ethereal w/ fire warriors, a buff commader w/ missiles and markers , a few tetras, some pathfinders, a riptide and broadsides. Depending on points a few suits - (dual CAD - farsight and regular Tau). He sometime puts the commander with Aun'Va - impossible to kill w/ shield drones and commander tanking.

I already know that Necrons are a b###ch to beat with my DE. And I suspect that I'll have problems with Eldar and maybe FMC spawn lists.

So it begs the question - what top tier armies are we good against? I think we really do need to play a few mind games and use a few unusual lists that opponents cannot really prepare for and then hope we get our FNP rolls and our strong assaults off. I feel that the court, incubi, grots and beasts will be essential for most of our games. Talos will help too. Our paper warriors and skimmers need support - we have to apply early pressure or we will lose. I'm not talking ravagers and venoms firing either - I'm talking assault. I know this flies in the face of the above list - it has no real hammer unit except the three Taloi which are slow. But those Taloi can deploy in the bastion and get up table relatively fast. Also realspace - if there is night fighting will help me.

My two cents for what it is worth.

That deathstar looks really good. I am going to mention it to my Iyanden friend.

Figured I'd throw my hat into the ring!
Succubus+ armor of misery+ glaive+ wwp= 145
8 Grotz+2 lg+ aberration+SH= 330
5 incubi+ Klavix+ raider+ SN= 180
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
Dark artisan formation+ spirit probe+ Injector+ wwp= 360
Allied Eldar detachment
Autarch+banshee mask+ soulshrive= 105
3 WRJ= 52

1847
Autarch is for reserve manipulation and beat sticking and goes with the incubi.
Thoughts?