Alternative take on Wrack use

Exactly what it sounds like. Has anyone ever ran Wracks in this configuration before?

5 x Wracks
One is a Acothyst with Hexrifle
One has a Liquifier Gun

Venom w/Splinter Cannons
Total 150pts

I was thinking 2-3 of these would be a cool troop core for any army, as they are are very jack of all trades for a DE scoring unit:

1) They can take a shot better than Warriors or wyches.
2) They are more resilient than warriors in melee and more dangerous than either of them in assault.
3) They are more difficult to charge due to that pesky "melt your face off" 1/2 the time.
4) They can harass any character based unit since the hexrifle can potentially kill any non-vehicle model in the game with one shot, albeit infrequently.
5) At end of game they make much better objective holders than the others.

Did I mention that they and the Hexrifle look very cool? No? Well they do.

Now obviously they have a distinct lack of anti-vehicle capabilities, but that can be accommodated in other parts of the army. Scourges with Haywire, Blasterborn, Ravagers, Reavers and Void Ravens can help out where necessary.

Also i'm aware that acothysts are no very popular, but you need one for that hexrifle. Plus the extra attack makes up for the liquifier loss and the LD is always nice, especially for scoring units and assault units.

Could this actually work as a unit?

The same unit without a Hexrifle seems just as useful and more affordable.

Obviously it it more useful by necessity, since the Acothyst and Hexrifle are both 100% upgrades, but I presume you mean for the points? This is true, but do you think it could be made to work?

What does the hexrifle give you? It's an unreliable gun that's got a lot of range. The liquifier means they want to get close. Conflicted load outs are generally a bad idea.

GorlanVance wrote:

Obviously it it more useful by necessity, since the Acothyst and Hexrifle are both 100% upgrades, but I presume you mean for the points? This is true, but do you think it could be made to work?

Define work?

You could certainly do it.
It would certainly do stuff.
It would certainly be spending more points then you really need for a gain that is pretty questionable.

If that is 'made to work' then, yes, it works. If that is not 'made to work' then, no, it doesn't.

I mean't could this unit be used as the core of an army? As it's troop choices more specifically?

I've seen builds that revolve around taking multiple units of 2 + acothyst with hexrifle to try and snipe characters and/or MC's. As others have said, it's unreliable, and put into a small, unit that needs to be kept alive for scoring purposes.

GorlanVance wrote:

I mean't could this unit be used as the core of an army? As it's troop choices more specifically?

What is the rest of the army?
Yes, this could probably work as a troop choice (albeit one that had a questionable upgrade) but the rest of the army would need to be built around that concept.

I very often run a couple of those units in Venoms and they can be very useful. Also, don't forget that the Hexrifle is an assault weapon too so you can fire it off as you charge in. Yes, the Hexrifle is a relatively expensive upgrade but if you want the unit dancing around, unleashing liquifier juice over targets of opportunity and hammering splinter-fire into units at distance; it's actually a pretty useful one. A CC upgrade would be a total waste of points. If you want to see an hilarious example of what this unit is capable of, check out my post in the Realspace Raids section, called 'Hexrifles for the win'.

I've struggled with a 5 man liquefier squad in a venom without have a hex rifle... In all of my games with that unit, I've struggled with the long range of the venom and the short range of the squad. And when I've camped the unit, the liquefier never got used as killing 5 Wracks with shooting is fairly easy... Even with a covet save, its about as hard as killing 5 marines.

So really, I don't see the defensive benefit and as others have said the hex rifle seems a bit dubious. But, I still run Mandrakes because I think they look cool... So if you want to use them go for it. I just don't know that it would make a good core. It seems like opponents would focus on other units and sort out the Wracks at the end. And if they were charged by marines, the flames would at best kill 3, so there could easily still be enough left to contest...

Personally, I think sniper rifles are a little lackluster in an army full of poison. Maybe if wracks could replace their CCWs with snipers, they'd see more use, but bringing only one shot in the squad doesn't seem like the best use of points from a competitive standpoint.

Would be fun and interesting to see in action, though.

autopilot wrote:

Personally, I think sniper rifles are a little lackluster in an army full of poison. Maybe if wracks could replace their CCWs with snipers, they'd see more use, but bringing only one shot in the squad doesn't seem like the best use of points from a competitive standpoint.

I agree - if the whole squad could take sniper rifles, then it might be worth considering. Or, if it was a cheap 1-per-5 upgrade for the squad (like the liquifier), then it might be worth trying on backfield squads.

However, as things stand, I just find that there are too many issues with it:

1) One of the main bonuses of snipers is wounding anything on a 4+. Our whole army wounds anything on a 4+. Next...

2) Snipers aren't great in 6th. Ok, so I've rolled a 6 and picked out a character - that character now redirects the shot on a 2+. So, with BS4, I can expect to hit my target character with 1/54 shots, and will only hit a sergeant 1/18 shots. What am I paying this 'sniper' for again?

3) The above might be forgiveable if the Hexrifle fired several shots, or could be taken cheaply by an entire unit. Oh, wait, it's 1-shot and 1-per-squad. Moving on...

4) We overpay ridiculously for the hexrifle. 15pts for just one shot in a troop unit, and we're only allowed that once we pay another 10pts for an Acothyst. I don't understand why this thing needed to be so expensive. Even at 5pts I'd hesitate to include it.

The Shredder wrote:

4) We overpay ridiculously for the hexrifle. 15pts for just one shot in a troop unit, and we're only allowed that once we pay another 10pts for an Acothyst. I don't understand why this thing needed to be so expensive. Even at 5pts I'd hesitate to include it.

That is really it in a nutshell.
You don't get what you pay for.
And it is a good point, even if they left everything else identical and changed the points to 5...I don't think I'd field any of them. That pretty much screams that it is pointed out poorly.

That is really it in a nutshell.
You don't get what you pay for.
And it is a good point, even if they left everything else identical and changed the points to 5...I don't think I'd field any of them. That pretty much screams that it is pointed out poorly.[/quote]

Yeah. If it was 5pts, I might at least try it on a Haemonculus (just so he can join in shooting at distances over 12"), but even then it would be the first thing to go if I needed to trim points.

Sadly, if you compare our gear to that of marines, we overpay for a *lot* of basic stuff. I think it's just clearer with the hexrifle. After all, blasters are overpriced, but at least they fulfil a useful role - the same can't be said for the hexrifle (which, incidentally, costs the same as a blaster).

The Shredder wrote:

2) Snipers aren't great in 6th. Ok, so I've rolled a 6 and picked out a character - that character now redirects the shot on a 2+. So, with BS4, I can expect to hit my target character with 1/54 shots, and will only hit a sergeant 1/18 shots. What am I paying this 'sniper' for again?

I agree with your overall point, that the Hexrifle is not generally worth it, but if you're going to field snipers then this illustrates why you shouldn't target characters - you should be aiming to pick out heavy/special weapons, which don't get the benefit of Look Out, Sir!

What it boils down to is that if you want snipers, you are better off taking an Eldar Allied detachment with Rangers as troops than Wracks/Haemies with Hexrifles.

60 points gets you more sniper shots, a unit with stealth that can infiltrate into cover for a 3+, and move through cover.

Throw in a Farseer and you have a guarantee of at least 2 twin linked units and maybe a few other surprises as well.

The microscopic chance of instant death occurring just isn't worth it with our Hexrifle when this alternative is much more effective for the points, and pretty darn fluffy too...

Wishful thinking I guess...thanks for setting me straight guys

Ben_S wrote:

but if you're going to field snipers then this illustrates why you shouldn't target characters - you should be aiming to pick out heavy/special weapons, which don't get the benefit of Look Out, Sir!

Trouble is, if you do that, you're also forgoing the instant-death aspect of the Hexifle.

I agree generally though - sniping special weapons is usually a better idea.

Depends what you're up against - not if it's a Tyranid Warrior. Whereas you mentioned shooting sergeants, which are usually one wound too.

Perhaps the best targets are things like MCs. Would be very funny to see a Riptide fail its Wounds check...

Ben_S wrote:

Depends what you're up against - not if it's a Tyranid Warrior.

True. However, tyranid warriors aren't exactly a common sight - mainly because of instant death.

And, if we want to ID them, I think we have better methods...

Ben_S wrote:

Perhaps the best targets are things like MCs. Would be very funny to see a Riptide fail its Wounds check...

It would. On the other hand, the actual likelihood of it failing its check (not to mention the odds of wounding it in the first place) makes it a dubious investment.

Considering that our entire army has poisoned weapons as their default, I feel that paying points for overpriced methods to maybe kill a MC are more than a little wasted in our army. :p

Maybe if the rifle wounded on a 2+ and rended on a 4+ or 5+ (similar to the Duke's CC weapon), then that might help justify its cost. Although, even then, you're still buying a melee squad so that you can give one man a gun.

Yeah I'd have to agree with the rest of you, the Hex Rifle just doesnt cut it.
The wracks though are quite something I've started using a unit of 5 Wracks with a Liquifier in one of my Raiders with a Liquifier Heamonculus and they always perform

Timatron wrote:

I very often run a couple of those units in Venoms and they can be very useful. Also, don't forget that the Hexrifle is an assault weapon too so you can fire it off as you charge in. Yes, the Hexrifle is a relatively expensive upgrade but if you want the unit dancing around, unleashing liquifier juice over targets of opportunity and hammering splinter-fire into units at distance; it's actually a pretty useful one. A CC upgrade would be a total waste of points. If you want to see an hilarious example of what this unit is capable of, check out my post in the Realspace Raids section, called 'Hexrifles for the win'.

Yes, it is an over-costed option, and yes, CWE Rangers offer a nice alternative. But as Timatron points out, it does have a few advantages and can be fun to use.

I was running multiple Wrack squads over the past year with a Liquifier and Hex-Acothyst, each accompanied by a Haemie with a VB, another Liquifier and another Hexrifle. The two LG's made for great defence and the two HR's were quite annoying for my opponents, the looks on their faces were often priceless. But that was also because I would run 6 or 8 of them, if you just have 1 or 2, I would say they aren't going to be effective at all.

Try them if you want to.

8 Hexrifle shots in the hands of Haems/Wracks
5.33 will hit. (so about .8 Precision shots)
2.66 Wounds (.4 from Precision shot, also a .4 chance to rend)
Vs. Meq that will mean about 1.15 wounds after saves (rending accounted for and presuming no cover.


Venom
12 shots
8 hit
4 wound
1.33 after saves vs. MEQ

So 8 Hexrifles is a little bit worse than 1 Venom when shooting at MEQ, so as long as fielding 8 Hexrifles costs you about what you would pay for a Venom you're in the zone.

Hexrifle cost - 15, so 120
The cost of two Venoms.
...eh.

Let's just say if you want to do that, make sure you're already planning to buy that many Haems and Wracks for other reasons, I probably wouldn't advocate that you do it just to shoot up things.

Thor665 wrote:

5.33 will hit. (so about .8 Precision shots)

Isn't that wrong? You divided by 6. But at BS4 hits, are a 3, 4, 5, or 6. So that means 1 in 4 hits will be a precision shot, not 1 in 6. Meaning you would divide by 4 and get about 1.33 precisions shots. Or did I miss something?

Not that it changes much.

EDIT:

Thor665 wrote:

2.66 Wounds (.4 from Precision shot, also a .4 chance to rend)

The same applies to rending, again you are dividing the number of wounds by 6. But a hexrifle only wounds on a 4, 5 or 6. Meaning 1 in 3 of the dice that wound will be a 6 and therefore rend. Meaning you would divide by 3 and get about 0.88 rends.

Thor665 wrote:

Let's just say if you want to do that, make sure you're already planning to buy that many Haems and Wracks for other reasons, I probably wouldn't advocate that you do it just to shoot up things.

Yes, absolutely, those particular squads were primarily for objective taking and minding, and the odd bit of beatstick application. The HR's were just some interesting add-ons which allowed the squads to do something useful while they sat on or near an objective. The fact that they could fire them whilst moving towards an objective also helped.

And you guys can mathammer all you want, but I roll 1's for my DL's pretty much all night long, and inversely for my HR's. Go figure.

That, plus the fail-a-wound-test-thingy, they rocked for me.