BR28: Kabal of the Bitter Envy VS Tau Mobile - 1000pts

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I don't think that difficulty of playing an army necessarily correlates with what "tier" it's in. I'm just saying that some armies are more difficult to play than others. If you don't understand how to run a gunline or a daemon dog list well then the worst that could happen is you're shooting the wrong thing and you either win or lose.

To be honest I always found chaos daemons a real challenge both list building and playing ( pre white dwarf update and post 6th edition codex, not that white dwarf update screamer/flamer spam phase). I find your battle plans need to be robust enough to deal with or capitalise on the random elements: Got -1 to your invulnerable saves? How do you deal with it? Got +1 to your invulnerable saves how do you make the most out of it? Lost half your army to instability, how do you consolidate your position? Spawn an extra unit, where do you deploy it? etc.

It also filters into list design, do you really want to be depending on biomancy so much, like those slaanesh flying circuse lists? Or grimoire in the case of a dog list? Personally I find that to much of a gamble, but part of the fun is balancing out the odds to a level that your comfortable with.

I honestly think the designers managed to make the new chaos daemon book akin to reading a chaos manuscript, trying to comprehend it just turns your brain inside out, so many variables, so many bizarre army building concepts. I have also noticed that it's very hard to make units plug and play in that book, you really need to have your target saturation down pat and and build an army that works as a whole.

It does depend on the list though, dog spam is pretty simplistic at least in theory (charge!), in practice not always (getting there in one piece).

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Knowing how to run a Tau gunline just increases the effectiveness of a fairly easy to play list whereas a DE list can't perform if you don't understand how to use it. That's why these netlist DE armies are fun to play against - their owner doesn't know why they're using these choices.

I have to agree the funny thing with the internet is there is so much emphasis on list building yet very little on tactics and strategy.

Foo wrote:

This is fascinating and useful. I've considered swapping armies before to find out more about my army and to make my friend feel better about his, but never got the chance.

Well worth doing if you get the chance. You can learn quite a lot from it.

We probably will, but one of the main motivations was his frustration at not being able to beat me. I suspect that won't be happening quite as much anymore, you know?

At this point, I'd just be happy to get in a game, period!

Mushkilla wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I don't think that difficulty of playing an army necessarily correlates with what "tier" it's in. I'm just saying that some armies are more difficult to play than others. If you don't understand how to run a gunline or a daemon dog list well then the worst that could happen is you're shooting the wrong thing and you either win or lose.

To be honest I always found chaos daemons a real challenge both list building and playing ( pre white dwarf update and post 6th edition codex, not that white dwarf update screamer/flamer spam phase). I find your battle plans need to be robust enough to deal with or capitalise on the random elements: Got -1 to your invulnerable saves? How do you deal with it? Got +1 to your invulnerable saves how do you make the most out of it? Lost half your army to instability, how do you consolidate your position? Spawn an extra unit, where do you deploy it? etc.

I didn't realize that there was a 6th edition update in White Dwarf. Do you know which one the update is in or is it available on the website? I have only been able to find one of the White Dwarfs with the Sisters list in and these updates are really frustrating to hunt down.

Anyhow, I agree that chaos daemons have a very diverse and interesting book which makes list building and army playing generally quite complicated. The popular Daemon dog list is probably not one of those lists because it mostly involves flesh hounds breaking the sound barrier and charging everything the enemy owns over and over while gobbling overwatch and crap lead and hate.

There are a few variations on how to run it, this is probably the most complicated one I saw in the ETC lists. This is Niek Vanderispaillie's list, but another common way to run it is with Heralds instead of Fateweaver and GUO and I've seen some which use Daemonettes as a follow up assault unit instead of Plaguebearers and Horrors. Not complicated stuff.

List:

Mushkilla wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Knowing how to run a Tau gunline just increases the effectiveness of a fairly easy to play list whereas a DE list can't perform if you don't understand how to use it. That's why these netlist DE armies are fun to play against - their owner doesn't know why they're using these choices.

I have to agree the funny thing with the internet is there is so much emphasis on list building yet very little on tactics and strategy.

Yeah, I mean the reason is probably related to how easy it is to point out deficiencies in a weak list. It's hard to read a paragraph summary of how someone lost to their friend and understand where they went wrong. I think the best ways to learn tactics is to read a tactica and to play games, and it's hard to discuss the subtle nuances on an online forum. These battle reports are great because you can see what other people are doing and where mistakes are made almost as if you're doing it yourself, thus they're almost a substitute for getting your own games in.

But I definitely agree with you. I recall lurking here a couple years ago when you starting posting your reports and you got a lot of (polite) flack for using Reavers, but you know what? It works. The issue has a lot more to do with how the units are used than which ones are used as we saw in your back to back games against Tau when the new book was released.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I didn't realize that there was a 6th edition update in White Dwarf. Do you know which one the update is in or is it available on the website? I have only been able to find one of the White Dwarfs with the Sisters list in and these updates are really frustrating to hunt down.

At the end of 5th beginning of 6th before the new chaos daemon codex, there was a white dwarf update that made screamers and flamers ridiculous (turning daemons into one of the best tournament armies at the beginning of 6th).

Thankfully it's no longer valid now that the new chaos daemon codex is out.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

The popular Daemon dog list is probably not one of those lists because it mostly involves flesh hounds breaking the sound barrier and charging everything the enemy owns over and over while gobbling overwatch and crap lead and hate.

The problem with a full on daemon dog list is it's a rock/paper/scissors list, great for ETC (as it's a counter heavy team event) and your average game, but against a competent opponent who has fought it before it can really struggle (unless it's the rock to your scissors). I do think the daemon netlists lends themselves heavily to extreme lists that rely on a gimmick as a crutch and lucky rolling, flying circus that depends on biomancy for survival (countered by poison, or not getting the powers you want) and daemon dog depending on scout (can block scout moves with infiltrators, grimoire might backfire, etc) are two such examples.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Yeah, I mean the reason is probably related to how easy it is to point out deficiencies in a weak list. It's hard to read a paragraph summary of how someone lost to their friend and understand where they went wrong.

I completely agree, it's just a shame to see so many units condemned because they look bad on paper. If someone wants to run a unit encourage them, and help them build a list that supports said unit. Variety is the spice of life.

Mushkilla wrote:

At the end of 5th beginning of 6th before the new chaos daemon codex, there was a white dwarf update that made screamers and flamers ridiculous (turning daemons into one of the best tournament armies at the beginning of 6th).

Thankfully it's no longer valid now that the new chaos daemon codex is out.

Okay, I misinterpreted. I have the one from last edition and I thought you meant there was a new one this edition too :S Hopefully GW stops releasing this important stuff in WD because it's hard to track them down later. I've been to 2 random stores in 2 major cities and they both only had the first half of the sisters army list.

Mushkilla wrote:

The problem with a full on daemon dog list is it's a rock/paper/scissors list, great for ETC (as it's a counter heavy team event) and your average game, but against a competent opponent who has fought it before it can really struggle (unless it's the rock to your scissors). I do think the daemon netlists lends themselves heavily to extreme lists that rely on a gimmick as a crutch and lucky rolling, flying circus that depends on biomancy for survival (countered by poison, or not getting the powers you want) and daemon dog depending on scout (can block scout moves with infiltrators, grimoire might backfire, etc) are two such examples.

Agreed.

Mushkilla wrote:

I completely agree, it's just a shame to see so many units condemned because they look bad on paper. If someone wants to run a unit encourage them, and help them build a list that supports said unit. Variety is the spice of life.

Yeah, but when do we get to see your Talos/Cronos list I keep hearing so much about? Now that you've completed your mission and everybody's saying they're getting bored of taking WAAC competitive units like venoms and reavers you must be looking to bring a new unit to the fore

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Yeah, but when do we get to see your Talos/Cronos list I keep hearing so much about? Now that you've completed your mission and everybody's saying they're getting bored of taking WAAC competitive units like venoms and reavers you must be looking to bring a new unit to the fore

You mean my Talos coven/nurgle daemons monster mash? I'm getting there.

This made me want to pull out (and dust off) the Tau I haven't played since they were invented in 3rd Ed. (I think). It looked like a fun army to play, but then I always liked the stealth units. I never was a fan of Kroot, but that was based on their fluff. Piranhas weren't around.

I think the reason so many focus on list builds stems from a number of reasons. They are easy to write or perhaps a better word is quantify. It is much harder and much more work to write a BatRep which talks about what you were thinking at any given point. You can't photograph it. I think there is also an element that when your unit of Reavers crush some unit, your opponent sees that as happening because of the Reavers's stats and abilities and not because of your movement the last two phases, your placement of objectives, unit synergy, or anything like that. Thus, they focus on list build over tactics/strategy and units over team. Finally, there are some lists that are, I think you said, plug and play. This is the uber list that won the Grand X Tournament and they simply copy it. It is a list with one overwhelming tactic built in and requires little actual thought or decision making on the table. It's all about identifying the best, most powerful, unit and spamming the hell out of it. It's strength lies in its construction, not its use. And construction can be easily copied and can produce wins... except against skilled opponents. That's why I think the Internet focuses on list construction and which units are "most powerful."

Dan