Space Marines - Knowing our enemy - Codex discussion

With the new codex being out, I presume brilliant and crafty Space Marine commanders (or dark kin disguised as a SM commander) have been able to concoct new tactics, combos and army lists for us to worry about. We need to know our enemy and we need to know their new toys. Are the Centurions trouble for us? Tigirius headache? Pod list with MSU with flamers? Grav weapons? Is the new dex competitive enough? Bwah!

My fellow evil leaders and infiltrators, please share whatever new knowledge you have on our enemy. If you have any questions or suspect something, ask as well. We need practical intel and data, experience and tips, counter tactics and target priorities, fun combos or suggestions!

I suspect Imperial fists could be a headache for us. Put 5x tacticals in pods with flamers, kit out devastators with HB and razorbacks with HB, a HQ with the new artifact bolter. This result in alot of ignore cover, killing our troops and threatening our jinked transports. On top of that, all bolters, storm bolters and HBolters can get re-rolls on hit and re-reroll on armor pen. Suddenly our transports got even more fragile!

I've copied this post from a thread in the Craftworld Eldar section as it relates to the new SM Codex

egorey wrote:

- be prepared -

Quick word on Centurions with Tigerius. One of our members already saw this squad at work and destroy a list in three turns. This is a 15 wound, T5, 2+/4++ unit with 30 TLed BS4 Grav Cannon shots. Against anything with a 4+ save or better, the unit is devastating. This is a durable unit, able to absorb lots of small arms fire and even high strength, low AP weaponry. Yikes.

Let us look at Tigerius now. We can put him in a squad with up to 6 Centurions - 4 will probably be the sweet spot - and an allied Librarian. Why would we do that. To get Gates of Infinity (he has retools to select. So Tiggy takes Telekinisis and the Libby takes Divination (for prescience). Each turn you can bounce the squad 24" around the board (use Homing Beacons if you need to on various units) DA Libby gives re-rolls to hit and everyone a 4++.

Now you have a majority T5 unit with 17 wounds, majority 2+/4++ save that can move 24", then shoot another 24". So 30 shots, all BS4 Twin-Linked, and the Grav Amps for retools will take out any Geq, Meq, MC or vehicle in the game. Gate and prescience are both blessings, so their is no Deny the Witch rolls. With Tigurius passing his psychic tests (almost guaranteed) all the other Telekinisi rolls are pretty useful too.

This squad is fearless, has split fire, and can use its TL blotter shots against hordes with low armor saves instead of the grave when needed. A single round of shooting will take out any, I repeat ANY, vehicle, flyer, geq squad, meq squad or MC in the game.

There are those that will say the squad is just too expensive. We are looking at a deathstar well over 750+ points depending on how you wish to run it. If you want beacons you need to find the back-up troops and units to support this. So it has its drawbacks. But there are going to be waac lists using combos like this at tournaments. We need to figure out ways to counter this.

Eeew! That was a very fun idea. I guess it'll be terrible against MSU, but with split fire it could still be devastating. How do we counter this? Fliers? Or pray to the dice gods he don't roll good on his psychic powers. At 750+ points, he's putting many eggs into one basket. A job for shattershard!

It's a non-scoring unit... in some games, the winning move might simply be to ignore it, and claim the field.

see also: Nercon Monolith

Moved to Dark Eldar Tactics.

We really should be discussing White Scars, not Centurions.

All scouting bikes and marines with hit'n'run is far more dangerous thing. Our poison got edge there, but there is really a need for a counter-assault units if someone goes pure shooting.

Bikes die to poison just as regular marines do. In the end they can have all the sweet jink saves they want but at the end of the day T5 looks like T10 to our poison. Massed fire will kill them. However, the key will be to deploy wisely and not let them close too quickly with them. Counter assault units like wracks and even wyches would do ok against the bikes if they can go first though their lack of save makes them meh once crap starts to fly. I would just try to stay out of assault with shooty units and tactically bog down the right units at the right time....go figure right?

I have yet to play anything like this but I feel like it may just be an issue of focusing the right things at the right time and delaying what you can properly.

Beware Tiggy...in that same thread where Eg's quote comes from I discuss some of my ideas on how to use him. He is a massive force multiplier that can make things like sternguard or centurions hard to shift. Standard they come with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters in the devestator version...if i gave them 4++, ignores cover, and reroll hits they would obliterate anything we have with ease. 3 guys, the squad min, would pump out 9 bolter shots and 9 heavy bolter rounds a turn at >12in and if you are within 12 make that 18 and 9...more than enough to rip through our fragile units. Just stay vigilent to ranges and counter assault them if you can since they are crap in assault.

just a couple quick thoughts for you guys there.

I don't have the book with me right now, but if I remember correctly centurion devastators only have 1 attack on profile and no power fist when they take grav cannon & grav amp. That would give said unit a huge weakness: assault. When you got something to tank overwatch the unit is almost guaranteed to be stuck in combat if not even beaten in a few turns.

Dogmar wrote:

I don't have the book with me right now, but if I remember correctly centurion devastators only have 1 attack on profile and no power fist when they take grav cannon & grav amp. That would give said unit a huge weakness: assault. When you got something to tank overwatch the unit is almost guaranteed to be stuck in combat if not even beaten in a few turns.

The good news there is that they don't get overwatch as they're slow & purposeful.

Assault them and tarpit with wyches? But I guess the psykers in the squad can handle that. Otherwise, I guess it is the usual splinter fire spam... But I can imagine that we need like, half our army to shoot em down.

About white scar bikes, it is funny that they are better than the ravenwing
With alot of jinks and mobility, I can see them being a problem for us to catch up. I belive the problem is that they can set up really good deployment to minimize our effective deployments.

Dang. good catch, Adhemar. That means if I'm right about the non-existence of powerfists on the devastator variant assaulting is indeed a good way of dealing with them. A space marine psyker, maybe with the exception of Tigurius (don't know his entire profile) is not that much of a threat to wyches. Force weapon doesn't really matter except for FNP purposes and loads of attacks will bring him down sooner or later. Also the 4++ dodge save is ace against such a low number of attacks with centurions having 1 each and the librarian I think 2.

Wyches however are not that of a threat to a T5 2+ model.

I say, just fire Lances at them.

I had a quick look at the codex the other day and I don't remember the devastator version having any sort of close combat weapons but I can't be 100% sure.

Azdrubael wrote:

Wyches however are not that of a threat to a T5 2+ model.

I say, just fire Lances at them.

Conversely, with 2 wounds and, in the configuration we're talking about here (with psykers), a 4++ save, Lances aren't that much of a threat to them either. At least with tarpitting them in melee they can't shoot stuff.

Watch out for the auspex. Instead of shooting the model with the auspex targets an enemy unit within 12" (this doesn't have to be the same unit that the rest of the model's unit shoots at), the target unit gets -1 to all cover saves until the end of the shooting phase.

These things are ridiculously cost effective. 5pts to make a target unit have -1 to cover from your entire armies shooting is very strong. Even better is you stick the auspex on an aggressive HQ and he can light up a target for the rest of the space marine army before charging another unit.

Reducing ruins/aegis lines to 5+ cover, reducing unit going to ground in area terrain to 4+ cover and reducing units with 2+ cover saves to 3+ cover are all pretty big game changers.

Target denial
750pts of death an destruction is all well and good, but even killing two units a turn, its not enough against me.
I'll keep my HQs (2x250pts) out of site and feed you 50pt wych units and 65pt venoms, yeah, if you get 6 turns, you'll pay for yourself, big whup.
I'll exterminate the rest of your army by T4 and win everything but kill points

I think the big thing to watch that nobody's mentioned yet is the Thunderfire Cannon. Barrage now, meaning it can indirect fire. With a 4 shot barrage, one of the options being ignores cover, I think it may cause problems, especially if it's hidden so that we can't get at it.

+EDIT+
Also, Legion of the Damned. Relentless, ignores cover. Fairly safe deep strike. 3++ (but doesn't bother us unduly).

The thunderfire cannon has always been quite the nuisance for us, but in the end it's a t7 (lol) space marine that would need 4s (with cover) or 5s (without) [needs citation*] to glance us. Would just need to space out a bit more before it's dealt with where ever it's hiding (behind LOS and/or in buffed terrain.)

Legion of the Damned... Relentless one trick pony's that will be magnets for splinter fire when they come in. Anything more would be wasted, though i was suprised to know they now can take special weapons. [citation needed*]

*don't have dex in front of me.

Your numbers are correct.

The Legion of the Damned may take one special weapon, but no Gravgun, one heavy weapon and the sergeant may take a combi-weapon.

Ignore cover Legions with deepstrike, good catch (they are slow&purposful though). That could be devastating against our weaker units or transport that rely on cover saves. Deepstrike in and shoot a raider/squad with plasmagun and plasmacannon ouch... So, let's say they DS, blow up some transports. Then artillery!

I looked into thunderfire and I must say they are perfect against our scoring troops! Outranging our arsenal, airburst rounds are dangerous. They are S 5 shots that ignore cover. Kabalites warrior got some protection, but poor wyches... Even if your transport got blown up and provides cover for the surviving squad, these thunderfire will clean up the rest.

Thunderfire are definitely terrifying.
But they've got a serious weakness; as artillery units if you can kill the techmarine gunner, the gun disappears. A single 1-wound 2+ model is all that stands between your army and a safe tomorrow. We've got the mobility to slide around to allocate shooting on the techmarine first. Yes he still counts as T7, due to artillery piece, but in the words of psycheer "lol." Some poison shot and poof.

Devastator Centurions definitely have no powerfists; all you've gotta worry about in CC is their S5 swingin' cod. I second the motion of "CC > lance" due to A) them not being able to shoot back, and B) not needing to spend multiple rounds not killing actual tanks.

I played a match against White Scars deathstar recently, 1250. He fielded 2x 5 bikes w/grav guns, 1x 3 centurion w/grav cannons + missile launcher, and a Command Squad with Apothecary, Khan, Chapter Master with the eternal warrior storm shield relic, fiery blade thingy, artificer armour and storm shields on the rest of the squad.
It wasn't as bad as I thought, mostly thanks to poison. Take out their scoring first (had 'em down by bottom of turn 2), then run away and the game is basically yours. Night Shields on Ravagers, and SC venoms took care of the centurions for me ('cause he had no vehicles to shoot at). I only let the centurions kill 3 wracks and 1 raider all game.
The bike deathstar was a bigger problem, but with enough focusing I managed to table him turn 6. The issue is it's ridiculously hard to outrun a biker deathstar; he caught and killed a ravager, a raider, and a squad of kabbies, all while I was trying to figure out how to out-maneuver him.

My best bud is planning on playing Imperial Fists, and that I'm far more worried about. He's previously a DA player with a level of tactical genius I've yet to see in anyone else. I feel NS and ranged play will be the only way for that to work.

Azdrubael wrote:

Wyches however are not that of a threat to a T5 2+ model.

I say, just fire Lances at them.

It doesn't matter if the wyches don't threaten centurions. We don't have to kill them, all we have to do is tie them up. Considering the points difference it is more then a fair trade-off

wouldn't incubi do the number on these easily enough? Apart from the ridiculous points cost, do they make a good alternative to killing centurions? Bit of a one trick and lots of points sunk just to kill centurions?

I know I will never be competitive with this choice but I won't lie. I run a 9 man incubi squad with vect because I love the fluff and models. So centurions just make be happy because here is a chance to finally get those points back lol

Mission killed is just as dead as killed killed for most circumstances
One way to kill a 500pts centurion blob is to throw a 500pt Archibi at it.
A better way is to throw a 50pt wych squad at it.

The question isnt, "how do I stop that squad".
Its how do I stop that squad accomplishing its objective.

A full bike squad, with a Bike Captain and a Bike Librarian is easy 600pts.
Its objective for the game is not to kill 4x5 wyches, but you can quite easily force it to do just that.
In any game but kill points, you've "lost" 200pts of models, but the enemy has "lost the use of" 600pts of models, a clear win for you.

DominicJ wrote:

In any game but kill points, you've "lost" 200pts of models, but the enemy has "lost the use of" 600pts of models, a clear win for you.

To be honest, even in kill point games it's probably still a win when you consider what that unit would have been doing if they hadn't been killing disposa-wyches.