Space Marines - Knowing our enemy - Codex discussion

In an objective games those 20 wyches are major part of your objecive holders. Centurions killing 4 squad of them is good use for that 600pts squad. Those 600pts die to poison easily though.

I definitely see Wyches and Incubi being a strong counter to Centurions. I also think that Warriors will be a very good counter to the countless White Scars armies which are about to pop up.

I also think CW players are going to think hard about picking up a basic allied force of Dark Eldar to protect their Wraith units from grav-toting bikers, and centurions. I think Archon, 5x Incubi, 10 Warriors, and 10 Wyches with moderate upgrades would be a great compliment to any CW player.

i am a little upset white scars aare better than ravenwing but thats an aside.

hasnt anyone else looked at iron hands with a master of the forge and 6+ drop podding dreadnaughts(ironclads for effectiveness against standard s6/7 spam thats out there)? its truly a scary thought even more so when dual force org happens with them. im not really sure on how to counter it either as they just arrive where they want to and ruin our alpha strike abilities

white scars will be difficult for us but they suffer what all marine bikes do low model counts so hit the troops and keep away from the inevitable command squad death star or feed it wyches.

i agree with most everyone else on here deal with centurions by wych squads or maybe a scourge squad with blasters and carbines tearing into them ...

helvexis wrote:

hasnt anyone else looked at iron hands with a master of the forge and 6+ drop podding dreadnaughts(ironclads for effectiveness against standard s6/7 spam thats out there)? its truly a scary thought even more so when dual force org happens with them. im not really sure on how to counter it either as they just arrive where they want to and ruin our alpha strike abilities.

I have tested a similar build. I prefer to run venerable dreads with heavy flamer/assault cannons, the BS5 WS5 is awesome on a dreadnaught, I find AV13 a risk with all the lances out there and would much rather be able to re-roll any lucky pens that get through. If you think about it the venerable rule means a penetrating hit from an AP3 weapon only has a 1/36 chance of making it explode (1/9 for AP2 and 1/4 for AP1), for all the other damage results you have your master of the forge attendants to fix things up. It's a bit like serpent shield light. I set my iron herd up in a fortified ruin in the middle of my deployment one and just march forward firing BS5 assault cannons and bolter fire. Though I am considering a pod variation too.

Is those odds taking into the it will not die save mush?

I always forget how good the venerable rule is however I enjoy watching people who spam s6/7 rock up to 6+ av13 vehicles. But I think the venerable is better for all comers lists.

helvexis wrote:

Is those odds taking into the it will not die save mush?

I always forget how good the venerable rule is however I enjoy watching people who spam s6/7 rock up to 6+ av13 vehicles. But I think the venerable is better for all comers lists.

No it's not, IWND happens at the end of your turn. Venerable got a lot cheaper this edition, the problem was that the dreadnought would still die to hull points or get immobilised/weapon destroyed. The iron hand chapter tactics help with that, an iron hands forge master is repairing on a 3+ and IWND on a 5+ at the end of each turn really helps that dread stay functional.

Laughingcarp wrote:

My best bud is planning on playing Imperial Fists, and that I'm far more worried about. He's previously a DA player with a level of tactical genius I've yet to see in anyone else. I feel NS and ranged play will be the only way for that to work.

In my recent game against IF (myself though) I experienced two things about IF:
Nightshields becomes very important against Tank Hunter devastators. Otherwise they'll down whatever transport or ravager.
Bolter drill is tricky.. When I first looked at it, I thought it'ld be cool, alot of stuff benefits from this! Then I realized, razorback HB is twin-linked... Primarch's Wrath can be considered bolter(the fluffrules says it!), though I believe there is a huge internet debate about this... So far, this rule aint no game changer like white scars got. Though it managed to help to glance a venom to death early on turn 1, i rolled six 1's out of 20ish shots, got reroll and hit all...
Other than that, it is just the Tank Hunter on IF that is worrying. But There is only 3 units per army that can benefit from this and it is VERY easy to deny their ability to utilize it. Devastators will not want to move, so you can easy move and stay out of their range. If they move, your vehicles are still mobile enough to get out of range or BLOS. If your enemy picks many devastators squads, it'll make your day easy. Just let them come...

And as stated above, Dev Centurions can easily be handled by throwing splinter and wyches at em. They won't be wanting grav weapons against your vehicles, they just can't get in range. If they stick with HBs, good!

Seriously, Dev centurions should have TWO Hbs, not twin linked

edit: my next game will be 1250 points, mass droppod Imperial Fists and even more devastators!

Reading all that is on here makes me smile. For one major reason is the cool heads that can see both sides to things. Some podcasts I listen to are praising grav (or gravy by one podcast) guns. While I will not deny they will be good nothing about them is omgwtfbbqsauce. Mixed reviews on chapter tactics as some seem to like White Scars and others make it seem like meh.

I am actually really looking forward to playing against the new marines they got the points reduction they needs and enough changes and new things to make them interesting to play against again.

Really impressed with the codex and kinda tempted to paint my ravenwing white :O

I thought about " Lelith + 3 wracks + Venom = 280 pts " in order to tarpit or annihilate the centurions.
Wracks T4 + FNP token increases survivabilty, full poison weapons (wracks and Lelith) deals with T5, Lelith's Penetrating blade gets rid of the 2+, Lelith WS9 and 3++ save allows easy tarpitting. Not gold, but might be a solution

edit error: Lelith does not have a poisoned weapon

LSK wrote:

full poison weapons (wracks and Lelith) deals with T5

Sadly, Lelith does not have poison weapons.

EDIT- Just noted your own edit. D'oh!!

Quote :

It doesn't matter if the wyches don't threaten centurions. We don't have to kill them, all we have to do is tie them up. Considering the points difference it is more then a fair trade-off

We will have to roll for lost combat if we cause none wounds and enemy cause some. So we can bounce from them. Tigurius is no slouch in close combat. They have S5 meaning they will wound wyches on 2+. It cant be reliably tied by wyches.

Full 10 man squad with venom blade hekatrix cause 0,65 unsaved wounds on Centurions.
And i for one dont intend to use 10 man squads any time soon, thats a waste of points. I see wyches in 2 options only:

Bare 5 (haywires)
Hexka + Venom Blade + 4 Wyches (haywires)

5 Centurions cause 1,25 unsaved wounds on wyches per turn. Thats without Tigurius or any buffs he might give them.

I don't think Lelith would do good against them, you're throwing too much points at them with Lelith at the same time.

Bare wyches would be best, imo.

Perhaps Disintegrators would fair well against Centurions?

12"+18" move is best against dev centurions. Right after 12 or more skimmers. MSU seems to be good against new marines.

I feel like we've done well out of this codex. Not that its bad or possesses no threats, but a lot of the stuff people are cooing over are things that shouldn't phase us too much. They are being designed for expectations we do not fulfill.

I think scouting Raven Guard rhinos might give us potential issues though.

I agree, the codex COULD devestate us, but it wont.
Because people wont list tailor for us.
I flicked through it last night, and thought, fists, 6 tacticals, 3 devestators, full squads.

Bikes and captain/master if points allow
Which it should, didnt check points fully, but 90 marines 18 special weapons should be about 1440.

That would slaughter us. It out MSUs us with a lot more survivable models.
God Damit bye bye dark city hello bolter and chainsword

Just kidding, sort of.

The point reductions in most units in most newer codexes is really starting to hurt us IMO. When you're paying 14 points for a MEQ statline, or 13 for a Dire Avenger, 12 points for a Wych starts to look a bit much.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The point reductions in most units in most newer codexes is really starting to hurt us IMO. When you're paying 14 points for a MEQ statline, or 13 for a Dire Avenger, 12 points for a Wych starts to look a bit much.

I hear that!

Ten tac with flamer and rocket used to be 170, now its 160, not a huge drop.

no, not huge, but 10 point savings add up across an army (flickerfields?). So 6 tac squads with flamers is what, 960 points, 6 rhinos 210, so for not a lot of points you get 60 marines in transports with smoke grenades, that don't need to assault coz once in rapid fire range they tear us apart. thats 108 shots (ok assuming they all survive etc etc), but its still a lot, plus flaming goodness. Seeing as there is nothing bar cover saves that we can use to survive that lot. At 1750 points, 60 tac marines just got a lot more attractive.

But, as someone pointed out, lists will be (most likely) tailored to kill marines, eldar, tau and necrons. I would be highly surprised if we even get a look in for most marine players considerations. My gaming group only thinks of fun ways to kill me because they have seen the devastation that can be unleashed... sometimes...

Ten tacs used to be 180pts (free lf & ml and vet sarge) now they are 140 stock. Old Flamer missile combo is now 20pts extra and not so point efficient any more.

Massed foot marines are slow, short ranged and struggle to bring their maximum firepower to bear on one spot - that or the heavy weapons are making them really slow. Obviously they have a lot of other advantages, but on a decent sized board in an objective based game (i.e. the norm) it does not seem impossible to simply keep out of their way and play to win on objectives.

In rhinos they're more difficult but a lot of the same things apply. You just have to pop rhinos first.

The big core of Marines looks a lot more scary if accompanied by something like Land Speeders or a lot of long ranged firepower (I guess 3 devestator squads certainly qualifies!) to threaten our mobility and force us to make early decisions.

3x 10 man dev squads in combat squads can actually cover a lot of ground and act MSU. So good point there, they could limit a lot of our movement. I'm definitely going to try something similar with my IF.

I think that point drops of 10 is a lot when you stack them up across troop choices. 6x troop marines + 3 dev squads + MSU,  suddenly bolter drill gets better...

Oh right, relentless(ultramarines) dev squads is also fun! That could really devastate us or many other races. Against us, it could possibly get into LOS and negate our night shields. I believe that is something we should watch out for.

edit: added some more text

a good point, 6 x 5 man dev squads would be very annoying. yes slow, and maybe we can dance around them for a while, but how about 12 x 5 man tac marine combat squads as well? now you have some serious target saturation. Can they stay in rhinos and then combat squad out as long as its declared at the start that is what will happen? Haven't played marines like that. 18 targets plus whatever else they bring could be interesting...

Codex: Space Marines p.76 wrote:

In an exception to the normal rules, two combat squads split from the same unit can embark in the same transport vehicle, providing its Transport Capacity allows.

So yes, they can stay in a Rhino and disembark one by one or together, or even get back in.