eldar allies, why no wave serpants?

So I'm just brain storming ideas on something I wanted to try. I want to make a D/Eldar list that consists of 3 or 4 wave serpants, some bikes and a leader with powers on a bike. Then grabbing for dark eldar some beasts with baron, 2 ravagers, and a few raiders with warrior squads in them.

I havnt even looked at points or anything yet but i have noticed no one really has wave serpants in their lists when mixing eldar in with their dark eldar. Why is that?

Serpents are good when spammed..but alone they don't hold up.
People tend to shoot at them 1st,must have something to do with the downgrading pens to glances..so it must die.

Points are going to be your biggest issue,it get expensive when you ala carte Eldar into your DE army.

I'm using a Deldar list at the moment and I have 2 Wave Serpents but simply cannot afford any more. If I had the points I'd take 3-4.

Count Adhemar wrote:

I'm using a Deldar list at the moment and I have 2 Wave Serpents but simply cannot afford any more. If I had the points I'd take 3-4.

Can you link me to a copy of your list? I'd love to see what your running in the waveserpents.

Primary Detachment (Dark Eldar)
HQ
Haemonculus

Elites
Kabalite Trueborn
4 Trueborn, 2 Dark Lances

Troops
Wyches
5 Wyches with Haywire Grenades, Venom with Splinter Cannon

Wracks
3 Wracks, Venom with Splinter Cannon

Wracks
3 Wracks, Venom with Splinter Cannon

Heavy Support
Ravager
Dark Lances, Nightshields

Ravager
Dark Lances, Nightshields

Allied Detachment (Eldar)
HQ
Farseer

Troops
Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers
4 Dark Reapers with Starshot Missiles, Exarch with Eldar Missile Launcher, Flakk Missiles, Night Vision & Fast Shot, Wave Serpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field

Fortifications
Imperial Bastion
Quadgun

Nice list. I like the Reaper load-out although, isn't it a slight waste of points to have a Wave Serpent with nothing in it?

Being that my bikes are currently mia and I was recently given two wave serpents I'm strongly considering adding two units of meched wraithguard to my DE army. Finally settled on a conversion/sculpt for the wraithguard that I think I can live with (ie, I won't go completely and utterly crazy making ten of them...maybe), just need some more bits that shouldn't be too hard to get ahold of.

i retract this post as it was a dumb question i realized the answer to right away.

mug7703 wrote:

Nice list. I like the Reaper load-out although, isn't it a slight waste of points to have a Wave Serpent with nothing in it?

Ideally I'd take the serpent with another troop unit but I want the reapers and don't have enough points for the extra troop so the reapers get the serpent. I mainly want it for it's firepower anyway.

Now that i have a passable conversion (still WIP) I have been moderately regularly using a squad of Guardians in a serpent as part of my allies. I also take Rangers fairly often as a 2nd troop.

Both of these are very survivable in their own way. 3+ cover with the Rangers should be about a given, and a 2+ from fortifications isn't that hard to come by either. As I've been (very) recently experimenting with the Duke, and DS'ing a *lot* in, having units on the board that can take a hit and keep trucking are a must. Plus, juicy (though well hidden) Ravagers and such are also a way to draw some fire away.

As to why I don't run 3-4? The cost is prohibitive. Serpents alone are the cost of a Main Battle Tank (and for good reason). I deck mine with Holofields just to add to the hilarity. It is by far the most expensive troop unit I run (solidly over 200 points).
The second reason is finding a way to actually fit them into an allied detachment. You can take 2 in troops, which would be a solid enough choice. If you go with Banshees (eh?) you can fit one in Elites, and you could also do the above and give one to Reapers just for the added firepower. Does my army need Reapers? Not really. I'd rather take a Fire Prism if I was going to deck out a heavy slot. At that point, though, why am I not just taking Eldar as a primary?

i think the lack of wave serpents is that:
A) they are very very expensive
B) if you take only one of them, every lascannon on the board will target it.
C) if you take multiple serpents to combat point B, see point A.
D) Eldar foot troops aren't that good and are expensive.

the better buys as an allied detachment are 5man rangers @ 60pts or 3 man jetbikes for 51. a ten man squad of avengers + transport with a gun option is 250pts (before adding exarch + holofields etc) and can only hold one objective.

realistically, as a DE player you take Eldar allies for access to a few things we dont have as DE; scoring jetbikes, psykers, mass S6/S7 and tough troops (wraithguard). Limited access to skyfire might be helpful too, as well as situational special character combinations. artillery/barrage can be nice for certain story based games/list tailor games.
i think if you're after mass S6/S7 then units like warp spiders, vypers, war walkers are better platforms than serpents tbh. serpents cap out at 7 shots (keeping shields up), war walkers can get 32, vypers can get 21 (some twinlinked too)

csjarrat wrote:

the better buys as an allied detachment are 5man rangers @ 60pts or 3 man jetbikes for 51.

For me personally, those choices are worthless as i play against a Helldrake more often than not and neither of those units can survive against that undercosted/overpowered nightmare. In the right circumstances the 'Drake can even pop both in the same turn!

Count Adhemar wrote:

csjarrat wrote:

the better buys as an allied detachment are 5man rangers @ 60pts or 3 man jetbikes for 51.

For me personally, those choices are worthless as i play against a Helldrake more often than not and neither of those units can survive against that undercosted/overpowered nightmare. In the right circumstances the 'Drake can even pop both in the same turn!

i feel sorry for you man, none of my usual gaming buddies play chaos so i don't have to face that!!
serpents are going to be the better choice for you, unless you can play tricksy with small jetbike squads

Surely it's a good thing if one Wave Serpent attracts all the anti-tank fire on the board though? Means you've got a great distraction unit that is keeping your other, more specialised things alive. It's a bonus if it survives too, which really isn't beyond the realms of possibility, especially if you have a Spiritseer inside casting conceal on it (very mean, I know, but hey, he's the budget psychic choice, and perfect for keeping points down in lower point games). A Wave Serpent with holofields and conceal only has to move 6" to get a 2+ cover save, before you even have to roll to downgrade pens to glances. I actually used a Falcon in my last game with Eldar, and doing that made it pleasantly survivable.

yeah, it can be very helpful, but that strategy only really works if you get first turn. im always wary of relying on psykers too, only takes one failed test and you're toast!

can't even do that tactic as posted below, even less useful!

Mr Believer wrote:

Surely it's a good thing if one Wave Serpent attracts all the anti-tank fire on the board though? Means you've got a great distraction unit that is keeping your other, more specialised things alive. It's a bonus if it survives too, which really isn't beyond the realms of possibility, especially if you have a Spiritseer inside casting conceal on it

Sorry but the Spiritseer cannot cast Conceal on the Serpent. Conceal only affects the caster, granting him the Shrouded USR, which in turn confers on the unit that the Seer is part of. It does not affect the unit's transport.

Nor is cover any good against Helldrakes.

My new list has one serpent. Its main purpose is to keep one troop alive until late game. I also use 3 bikes as some opponents don't know how good they are again in the late game.