2250 Urien's All Coven list (Now a 1750pt Urien list discussion)

HQ

Urien Rakarth

Haemonculus - Liquifier, Venom Blade, WWP

Haemonculus - Liquifier, Venom Blade, WWP

Haemonculus - Liquifier, Venom Blade


ELITE

Grotesques (5) - Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Liquifier, Str 6 upgrade
- Raider DL, FF

Grotesques (4) - Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Liquifier, Str 6 upgrade
- Raider DL, FF


TROOP

Wracks (4)
- Venom SCx2, FF, NS

Wracks (4)
- Venom SCx2, FF, NS

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF, NS

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF, NS

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2
- Raider DL, FF

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2
- Raider DL, FF


HVY SUPPORT

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

2245 pts



DEPLOYMENT

Urien joins the 5 man Grot unit and waits in reserve (WWP)
Grot Raider deploys on table

Haemonculus w/o WWP joins the 4 man Grot unit and waits in reserve (WWP)
Grot Raider deploys on table

Haemonculus w WWPs each join a 4 man Wrack unit embark on Venom

Wrack 10 mans wait in reserve (WWP)
Wrack 10 man Raiders deploy on table

Talos deploy on table or reserve as needed

The 5 points can either upgrade a Talos TL Haywire to Heatlance if WWP bound or throw a TGL on a Raider or GT on a Venom



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Loose the Liquifers from the Grots, they are not a shooting unit.

I personally would run Urien w/ 4 Grots in Raider, Non-WWP Haemi w/ 4 Grots in Raider and the other 2 WWP Haemies in Venoms w/ 4 Wracks.

Grots don't have fleet, you wanna get them as close to the enemy as possible and WWP isn't gonna do it - turbo them up turn 1. On turn 2, they will be able to get stuck in.

Urien's unit will start with 3 pain tokens, so if you fail your Raiders cover save, the squad will be fine, even if they loose 1 or 2 units due to enemy firepower, they will still be fine. If you roll a 3 or 4 for Urien's skill a the start of the game, then u can choose to give the extra pain token to the other turbo squad; Haemie/Grots squad.
I would also pay for the Grots extra Str upgrade, making the Grots S6 on the charge, so you can quite happily (or aggressively) charge Rhino's/Razorbacks etc (As there are no Ravagers/Blasterborn in your list to shoot from a distance)

The Venoms come standard with FF, I hope you haven't added the points to them....coz u don't need to

Drop the TL Liquifier (but keep the TL HB) from all 3 Taloi and take the Chain Flails upgrade as the Talos will do a hell of alot more damage in CC then shooting.
6 troop choices is great - I'd be inclined to turbo the bigger wrack squads straight into the enemies obj and leave the small squads back to take others - you wanna apply the pressure as hard as possible.

Start all troops on the table and leave only the 3 Taloi in reserve. Again, wracks and grots don't have fleet, so exiting the WWP is not the best move for them.

Thanks for the comments.

Insight into my reasoning behind my choices.

I personally like liquifiers and for 10 points I feel they are a complete steal and any unit I field that includes the option will have as many as allowable. I know that the Grots are primarily a HtH unit (i.e. the lack of shooting options and a BS of 1) but so are pretty much all of my units (Wracks). They also don't pack grenades or ignore armor saves in HtH so it's nice to have the option of a template weapon that has an average chance to negate MEQ armor and is just slightly worse vs. Terminators. At 10 points.....all day long. Also in this kind of list there is such limited squad based shooting to begin with so best not to reduce it even further; not to mention I didn't see a better way to spend the 20 points.

All the Grots in the list were already upgraded to Str 6 (its mentioned above) but I agree with your reasoning.

Each WWP equipped Haemonculus is attached to a 4 man Wrack unit in a Venom and I already took into account the fact Flickerfields are standard issue on Venoms (Thanks for mentioning it though).

While Fleet is very much an Eldar/Dark Eldar trait there are a lot of armies/units that are quite capable of successfully assulting without it, some even without the addition of open topped vehicles. So I'm very comfortable having any unit come through the WWP regardless of role. I was hoping that with two WWP if all went well I would drop one on turn 1 to catch any reserves that might come in on turn 2 but then push the second WWP deeper for a turn 2 deployement giving options for reserves arriving turns 3 +.

I am figuring on starting all the Talos on the table to provide AT support. Now depending on if I go 1st or 2nd and based on what my opponent deploys (has in reserves) I may hold 1 or more back for WWP deployment. Then I might possibly change their weapon arrangements going with Heatlances instead of Haywire Blasters. I still like the TL Liquifier, again for similiar reasoning as explained with the Grots. The Talos can't fleet so I don't have the option to forgo shooting to initiate an assualt so any assualt a Talos can execute means I will also be within Template range. I feel I can guarentee more reliable kill results generated by a good liquifier result vs a chain-flail. To each their own but a chain flail can be rendered ineffective (miss with the added attacks, roll doubles, items that reduce attacks etc.) The only time I wouldn't use the TL Liquifier before an assualt is if I risk killing to many and possibly failing a charge.

The Raiders in this list are not being viewed as transports but AT support since a pure Coven list lack's darklight options and this is the only way to provide it. So zooming forward into my opponents lines won't help that cause.I might think about dropping the Flickerfields on the Raiders but at a net gain of 40pts (or 1 more Grot) I'm thinking initially its worth keeping. With 4 Venoms, 4 Raiders, and 3 Talos on the table to start it should give my opponent more threats to help ensure those WWPs get deployed properly.

Ok instead of creating another thread I really wanted to take a shot at down grading the points to around 1750. I am also now including a unit that is not considered "Coven" but I definately have some cool conversion idea's to make the models in the unit very much "Coven-esq" or Steampunkish to fit the theme and look of the army.

HQ
Urien Rakarth

Haemonculus - Liquifier, Venom Blade, WWP


ELITE
Grotesques (4) - Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Liquifier, Str 6 upgrade (Urien goes here)
- Raider DL, FF, NS

TROOP
Wracks (4) (Haemonculus goes here)
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

FAST ATK
Beastmaster - Beastmaster x2, Khymera x3, Razorwing Flock x3

HVY SUPPORT
Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Total 1725 points.


Now my issue is where to put the final 25 points. I could buy another 2 beasts or beastmasters or one of each but I'm getting worried the unit is getting big (bases are big on K's) that the WWP might get overwhelmed. I could upgrade one Wrack unit to include an Acothyst with Hexrifle or..........thoughts?

I plan on starting all 3 Talos 4 Venoms and Raider on the board, the 10 man Wracks and Beasts are waiting for the WWP. The Raider and Talos should draw focus allowing the WWP to get deployed turn 1.

Thanks GAR for the input on the 2250 list.

My plan is to definately bring the Grots out of the WWP in this list; Urien with the 5 man Grot unit and the non-WWP equip'd Haem goes with the 4 man Grot. I bought the Raiders for the Grots A) because I had the option available and B) because I was looking for some cheap AT from a list built entirely of Coven units (so no blasterborn, Scourges, etc); in this list I was not thinking of having them embarked on the transports (not to mention Urien wouldnt be able to attach unless I dropped a Grot from the list). Same concept with the 10 man Wracks they have Raiders but will be coming out of the WWP.

I only own 9 Grots atm...(I love how we find ourselves using the term so lightly, considering how expensive this stuff is..."WOW that forgeworld piece is only $150" ). A 10 man Grot unit being over $200. Considering that, would you suggest going with a single big unit or keeping them split. If I went say with one 8 man unit of Grots, I wouldn't need the other Haem or be able to buy the 2nd Raider. It would be a net points gain of 185. Now I still like keeping the liquifier in the Grots, its cheap, its usefull and it doesn't require the loss of an attack from the Grot holding it.

I have two WWP equip'd Haemonculus each of which will score a ride with one of the 4 man Wrack units in venoms. I was thinking about dropping them down to 3 man's but I was just worried about having enough ablative wounds for my WWP equi'd Haem's and 4 was more than 3.

Now If I bump down the Wracks, bulk up the Grots to 1 units we are looking at over 200 points. The issue now is either I tool the list down to 2k by dropping the Grots to 7 and VB off the 2 remaining Haems, or trying to figure out how to add in 200 points keeping with just Coven units.....All 6 troop slots and their transports are accounted for, all 3 Heavy, no Coven FA available and the only Elites are expensive on the wallet. Maybe I just bite it and do what im suggesting in my 1750 and bring in some beasts.

What do you think about the 1750 list?

Ok so regarding the 1750 pt version I think I have settled on what to do and while it breaks the "all coven" restriction it really only bends it since the unit is tied to Haemonculus' work as opposed to the Beastmasters who are butt to the Wyche cults.

So the 1750 list is modified as follows:

FAST ATK
Scourges (5) - Haywire Blaster x 2

Maybe I'll use all batwings and modify the heads a bit to "Coven" them up. I think I like this option better not only fluff wise but because I didn't think the list lacked non-shooty HtH so the Beasts really din't help with the lists weaker area AT and Shooting. The Scourges with HBs and Carbines

Fletch wrote:

Thanks GAR for the input on the 2250 list.

My plan is to definately bring the Grots out of the WWP in this list; Urien with the 5 man Grot unit and the non-WWP equip'd Haem goes with the 4 man Grot. I bought the Raiders for the Grots A) because I had the option available and B) because I was looking for some cheap AT from a list built entirely of Coven units (so no blasterborn, Scourges, etc); in this list I was not thinking of having them embarked on the transports (not to mention Urien wouldnt be able to attach unless I dropped a Grot from the list). Same concept with the 10 man Wracks they have Raiders but will be coming out of the WWP.

I only own 9 Grots atm...(I love how we find ourselves using the term so lightly, considering how expensive this stuff is..."WOW that forgeworld piece is only $150" ). A 10 man Grot unit being over $200. Considering that, would you suggest going with a single big unit or keeping them split. If I went say with one 8 man unit of Grots, I wouldn't need the other Haem or be able to buy the 2nd Raider. It would be a net points gain of 185. Now I still like keeping the liquifier in the Grots, its cheap, its usefull and it doesn't require the loss of an attack from the Grot holding it.

I have two WWP equip'd Haemonculus each of which will score a ride with one of the 4 man Wrack units in venoms. I was thinking about dropping them down to 3 man's but I was just worried about having enough ablative wounds for my WWP equi'd Haem's and 4 was more than 3.

Now If I bump down the Wracks, bulk up the Grots to 1 units we are looking at over 200 points. The issue now is either I tool the list down to 2k by dropping the Grots to 7 and VB off the 2 remaining Haems, or trying to figure out how to add in 200 points keeping with just Coven units.....All 6 troop slots and their transports are accounted for, all 3 Heavy, no Coven FA available and the only Elites are expensive on the wallet. Maybe I just bite it and do what im suggesting in my 1750 and bring in some beasts.

What do you think about the 1750 list?

I have not seen much anywhere where 2250 is played. 'Arb Boys?? Just about everything, locally at least, is 2k or 1500.

That being said, I like the one big unit of Grots, even if it is just to save some $. it still works and is rock hard.

If you go that way, you could drop one haemi with a WWP and save some points there. I think if you need to shave some points, start with the LG on the Grots. I honestly believe you won't use it, or only once a game. Not worth it, IMHO. Leave it is you think you really want it.

I do like them on the wracks though, I see them being good there.

I would also drop the 4 manwracks down to a 3 man. Ablative wounds is not the way to think for DE play. Your models are fragile and buying more models to die is the wrong mindset. You want models to kill. Leave the dying to Orks and bugs.

With regard to the 1750 list, 1 WWP is not enough, and you don't have enough bodies to stop a group of marines camping it and forcing you to come in from your table edge.

Again, drop the raider on the grots, bump them up a bit if you have the points and get a second haemi with a WWP.

If you need more points, start with the LG on the 5 man wracks in venoms. make then 3 man units and use deploy them out of venoms if you need to camp objectives.

I would even go so far as to drop one 5 man wrack and venom unit if I had to, to add in another grot or get the 2nd WWP.

One thng to remember, is with the 3 talos and the big Grot unit, those are solid to smash armor or infantry. Well except a LR, your going to have a hard time with those. Hopefully the Talos can make quick work of it and you have enough other models to surround it and wipe out the unit inside.

Yeah 2,250 is pretty rare and came more from one group that started in Fantasy just keeping their typical values when playing 40k, so I kinda changed the topic midstream to 1750 which is a more typical value for our area (as is 1500 and 2k).

If it wasn't for four kids, two of which are very yount I would have most of the army together and rolling around for tweaks. Unfortunately that's not quite in the cards atm.

I know I will have some fundamental differences with certain options like Liquifier for Grots etc.

I've come to grips that I may need to expand my units (just a little) as mentioned in my previous post to include some of the Coven's more delicate work, i.e. Scourges. I think it helps add a bit of ranged AT as well as some more shooting which is pretty much either template or vehicles limited in this kind of list. I think it's not entirely unfluffy and I'm still going to convert them to be more "coven-esq".

With that said I think based on some of the feedback I've narrowed it down to two lists to build and playtest. The first being more of what I think fits my skill set and probably will be more challenging from time to time (1 WWP) and the second list taking more of the suggestions and incorporating them.

LIST 1

HQ
Urien Rakarth

Haemonculus - Liquifier, Venom Blade, WWP

ELITE
Grotesques (6) - Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Liquifier, Str 6 upgrade (Urien goes here)

TROOP
Wracks (4) (Haemonculus goes here)
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

FAST ATK
Scourges - Haywire Blaster x2

HVY SUPPORT
Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Total 1750 points


LIST 2

HQ
Urien Rakarth

Haemonculus - Liquifier, WWP

Haemonculus - Liquifier, WWP

ELITE
Grotesques (5) - Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Str 6 upgrade (Urien goes here)

TROOP
Wracks (3) - (Haemonculus goes here)
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (3) - (Haemonculus goes here)
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (5) - Liquifier
- Venom SCx2, FF

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

Wracks (10) - Liquifier x2

FAST ATK
Scourges - Haywire Blaster x2

HVY SUPPORT
Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Talos - TL Liquifier, TL Haywire Blaster

Total 1750 points

in my opinion, list #2 is the better of the two.

it gives you more options for a successful WWP list.

Don't sweat the scourge, they are hired guns to anyone in the dark city so in my view the can go anywhere.

Funny, I have 4 kids myself and I find myself up to my eyeballs in football most of the year, so I get the slow progress.

Only thing I would say is the aberation is probably something you could drop along with the flesh guantlet to get and extra Grot.

GAR wrote:

in my opinion, list #2 is the better of the two.

it gives you more options for a successful WWP list.

Don't sweat the scourge, they are hired guns to anyone in the dark city so in my view the can go anywhere.

Funny, I have 4 kids myself and I find myself up to my eyeballs in football most of the year, so I get the slow progress.

Only thing I would say is the aberation is probably something you could drop along with the flesh guantlet to get and extra Grot.

Thanks for the comments..

Yeah I can't wait to get the models built and painted now that I have them all compiled. I will definately give both lists a good run through.

Yeah kids seem to divert a wee bit of time (in a good way), fortunately, unfortunately there are 12 years between my first and second sets....hehe TEENs and TOTs so no rest for me

LOL,

16 down to 6. I have a big grot and a little grot.

GAR wrote:

LOL,

16 down to 6. I have a big grot and a little grot.

I feel for you.

Ok just to finish this one out hehe 16, 15, 3 and 1.......