returning to the dark side! HELP!

So,

I have been playing 40k for 15 years and my very first army (at the age of was Dark Eldar... Games Workshop was introduced to my school when a new kid came along and got us all involved and we picked our armies out of a hat, I got Dark Eldar... Now at that age I got pasted every time but now I believe I could wield the monster that is Dark Eldar to great effect. They fit my play style perfectly; speedy, aggressive, up close and personal. I have had lots of success playing with Blood Angels (never lost a game with my 1500pt army). I am worried I am going to underestimate the fragility of the Dark Eldar as i'm used to playing with power armour and my list writing skills derive from using sturdy armies as well. I would like some help with the list i have written.

What I know i want in my army is lots of raiders, reavers, scourges, wyches, mandrakes and one unit of *sit back and hold the objective* warriors with a dark lance to hold my deployment zone objective.

Here is my 1500pt list: -

Archon
Agoniser
Ghostplate Armour
Shadowfield

Heamonculus

5 Incubi
Klavex
Onslaught
Raider
Flickerfield

10 Warriors
Dark Lance

10 Wyches
2 Hydra Gauntlets
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

10 Wyches
2 Hydra Gauntlets
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

6 Reavers
2 Heat Lances
Arena Champion
Agoniser

6 Reavers
2 Heat Lances
Arena Champion
Agoniser

5 Scourges
2 Heat Lances

5 mandrakes

I would love some feedback and advice on how to make it better!

martycore wrote:

I would love some feedback and advice on how to make it better!

I'm going with this as the mantra.

Quote :

What I know i want in my army is lots of raiders, reavers, scourges, wyches, mandrakes and one unit of *sit back and hold the objective* warriors with a dark lance to hold my deployment zone objective.

I'll vaguely accept this list exists - but my commentary will mostly ignore it. There's competitive, and then there's "things I want because they're kewl!" I'm fine with that - I'm just going to tell it as I see it on a competitive level on the units below, you can decide yourself how much of a factor "kewl" has in your army composition.

Quote :

Archon
Agoniser
Ghostplate Armour
Shadowfield

Neutral on adding Ghostplate to the Shadowfield. Usually what bags my Archon is a power fist or klaw. If you're eating a ton of mook attacks than you're probably doing something wrong with the Archon anyway. You're packing on a TON of defensive powers to someone who is basically a glorified Wych - I'd drop one of the two armors and save points for elsewhere - he's good, but he's not worth that level of protection in your current configuration.

Also - strong consideration - get a grenade launcher so your Incubi can assault through/into cover without giving up their awesome initiative.

Quote :

Heamonculus

You're paying 50 points for a pain token? You really can't think of any other way to have this mook help you out? I'd free up the points to at least hand him a Liquifier - that way when the Archon and Incubi run off using fleet to go assault things the Haemy can start dropping flame templates on wads of infantry.

Quote :

5 Incubi
Klavex
Onslaught
Raider
Flickerfield

The Klaivex w. Onslaught is 50+ points.
He'll give you +1 WS on one guy (negligible) +1 Initiative and +1 Leadership (pretty nice) +1 attack and (statistically on the charge, presuming 3 to hit and 4 to wound - which is attacking MEQ) an additional .8 attacks.
2 Incubi will cost you 44 points and will give you +2 attacks - so statistically it's more attacks gained than Onslaught.
That means you should really decide on the purpose of the Klaivex - with the Archon running with them for Ld boost I personally think you'll be better off with 6 regular Incubi than 4+Klaivex. A thought for consideration - Onslaught becomes more useful the more Incubi you have - it's not optimal for small units of Incubi.

Quote :

10 Warriors
Dark Lance

I mean this in the nicest possible way - but you build lists like a Space Marine player (yeah, I know, you said as much).
DE are VERY good at taking objectives, because we do a lot of damage.
We're VERY bad at holding them because we have glass jaws.
If your Space Marine head screams that you must have an objective sitter - I suggest 20 Warriors w. 2 Lances. It'll be powerful enough to be a threat, and big enough that he can't just drop a single flamer on the unit and force a morale check for 25% casualties. It'll also be something that, due to the threat and size, he'll actually have to try to send something across the board to deal with it - all while your men are jumping up and down on his jugular in his deployment zone because he's a stupid-head slow Marine (I'll give you a pass for running Crack Angels, because they are actually pretty fast )

Quote :

10 Wyches
2 Hydra Gauntlets
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

2 of these? No real complaints, they'll hit hard and mean, though will have glass jaw syndrome until they kill something and get FNP - keep them in h2h till then!

Quote :

6 Reavers
2 Heat Lances
Arena Champion
Agoniser

Wooosh! I...hate this build. You've got here a very small and fragile unit, that has tank hunting power, and yet is kitted out for assault, and won't actually be that great at either job, and is also really expensive, and you have 2 of them. Do yourself a favor - check out the cost of this unit - compare it to the cost of those Wyche squads in a Raider...what, a 30-40 point difference? What will be better at killing the enemy? Try my flip of 5 warriors w. Blaster in a Venom or Raider w. usual upgrades on the transport you choose. 1-2 lance weapons - poison shooting from passengers and/or vehicle. Can target two different things, is a scoring unit, and saves you about 50 points! There is no comparison.

If you want to run RJBs I strongly suggest running them in squads of 3 with a Blaster (heat lance if you prefer the heat lance - for my money the Blaster is superior in every way, but that's a value call that I accept is up for debate). They are small, relatively cheap, and can hurt mech while also harassing infantry. Meanwhile you can spend points on things that can actually do a much better job at killing stuff than RJBs.

Quote :

5 Scourges
2 Heat Lances

Eh.
"Hi, we're Scourges, we're doing the same thing the RJBs are doing!"
You really don't need so many little tank hunting units that are really expensive and really fragile.
I'll note, for basic vehicle suppression I strongly support 2 Haywire Blasters as opposed to Heat Lances. They're a better weapon in my mind.
I'd certainly only bring 2 of any combo of Scourges or RJBs - and I'd bring Wyches and Warriors first - as they can do the same thing, but do it better, for about the same points, and serve as scoring units as well.

Quote :

5 mandrakes

Sorry, but I loathe Mandrakes. I LOATHE Mandrakes. I think they are in the top five worst units in the Dex, and they're not actually good at what they're supposed to do. Go ahead, run these guys versus a squad of...let's say 10 Guardsemen - give the Guardsmen a round of shooting first, and then let the Mandrakes assault through cover at them and regard the outcome carefully. Now try it vs. 5 Space Marines with a Missile Launcher. How well are these elite assassins doing? Yeaaaaah.

Mandrakes have some cool looking models and some awesome fluff - but the units stats does not reflect that fluff at all. I'd really leave these guys at home - they're terrible.

Hope that helps,
Thor.

I only count 10 AT weapons in that list, not enough.

I'd drop the reavers and get 2 units of 3 trueborn with blasters in a raider with FF. These are a tried and trusted AT squad capable of targeting 2 units each per turn. You have now got 14, still not enough but better.

I'd drop the klaivex to a normal incubi and drop a couple of wychs from every squad. The points freed up here can be used to boost your HtH units in other ways.
Look at getting another Heamy and equip both of them with liquifiers. Drop each of them into the wych squads, when the wyches launch an assault they take the pain token and the Heamy stays onboard for flaming duties. Get the wyches haywire grenades for dealing with dreads etc. And a PGL for your Archon.

I don't like the idea of sit and hold warriors, especially with a DL, it's just attracting attention to them, giving your opponent a reason to go after them. If you want to sit and hold then perhaps 2 units of wracks would be better. Get them in cover, go to ground with FnP and watch as they shrug off wounds, if you get rid of the Mandrakes as well you could get 2 units of 10 or smaller units and a couple of twin cannon venoms.

so are reavers pretty useless then? i mean i could buy a ravager or two instead of reavers really...

i already bought an opened 2 boxes so i may run 2 squads of 3 with a heat lance (i know the blaster is better but i think the squads of 3 have more chance getting close to utilise the melta) and a ravager on top of that... or maybe a razorwing, cant quite decide??

btw, thanks for putting the effort in to reply!

ok so new plan...

Archon
Agoniser
Shadowfeild
Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

5 Incubi
Raider
Flickerfield

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

Ravager
Flickerfield

Ravager
Flickerfield

I figure I can easily ebay the ravagers but looking at points, do they ever have a place over wyches in a raider??? If there is I really can't see it =\

On a competitive scale your new list gives your old list swirlies in the gym and steals its girlfriend for prom.

martycore wrote:

I figure I can easily ebay the ravagers but looking at points, do they ever have a place over wyches in a raider??? If there is I really can't see it =\

That's an uneasy comparison.

Ravagers pop vehicles.

Wyches charge infantry who come out of popped vehicles.

They fill two totally different goals in your army, and so I have a hard time explaining which one is "better" since you're basically asking me, 'what is better, a spoon or a fork?' The answer is 'depends what you need to eat' and that's the answer on Wyches vs. Ravagers.

i meant reavers, not ravagers >.<

There is a place for Reavers - it's called "not until you've filled your Troop slots to maximum"

They basically do what Warriors and Wyches do - but they cost more, aren't scoring units, and are easier to kill. In a competitive sense they're pretty limited and inferior to the Troops across the board. Your instinct is spot on.

ok,

on closer inspection that list is 53 points out...

what should i chop and change to make it hit the 1500 mark?

been musing over this for ages and i just cant decide...

at the moment it's: -

Archon
Agoniser
Shadowfeild
Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

5 Incubi
Raider
Flickerfield

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

8 Wyches
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider

Ravager
Flickerfield

Ravager
Flickerfield

was thinking of taking of the haywire grenades and the flickerfield on the incubi raider but what do you think??

martycore wrote:

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquefier Gun

Would put a shattershard on one of them. but not necassary. I usualy go max 2 Heamonculus and use CoM and Shattershard

martycore wrote:

5 Incubi
Raider
Flickerfield

Would change this to raider with Nightshields, as you are going to go flat out, or have no one inside either way.

martycore wrote:

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider

Put these in Venom rather than Raider.

i know i'm probably going to get grilled for this... but over raiders i see no point in venoms, 5 points more and you get a dark lance, just don't see the value of venoms apart from the flicker field...

i may remove the haywire grenades and change the flickerfield for a nightshield or simply dock a heamy... how does that sound?

"Do not underestimate the Powers of the darkside of the force"

A venom is one of the best transports in the entire game. its fast, can be equipped with dual splinter cannons and a night shield all for 75 points.

12 poison shots out to 36 inches is just plain awesome. Whats more, when you reduce the range of units shooting at you by 6 inches, it really messes with your opponents because now their bolters and melta guns are almost always out of range and they have to choose where their limited number of heavy weapons are going to go.

Venoms pump out a ton of shots and are pure death to horde armies such as bugs, orks and Grey Knights Draigio wings or terminator armies. You can stand off and splinter them to death and take no return fire. For example, 30 terminators with thunderhammers and stormsheilds do what to a venom. Not diddly squate. 12 posions shots will kill 1 teminator per venom on average. 1 darklance will not do much against the stormsheilds. I'll take 4 or 5 2+ saves compared to 1 3+ save.

My only comment to your list is they way you are going is drop the archon and take a succubus with agonzier and haywire grenades. 95 points, cheap, effective and makes whatever unit of whyches she is apart of a serious threat instead of a paint to deal with. UNless you are going to run the archon with the incubi. personally I don't really assault into cover unless I absolutly have to, I use venoms to shoot them to death in their buildings. Just use the incubi to assualt in the open or use wyches to assault in cover and then bring inthe incubi that same turn or in a subsequent turn.

I don't care for Shattershards, but I'm in the minority on this. I do highly approve of liquifier guns.

As for a scoring unit to camp an objective, wracks are the way to go. 3 wracks cost 30 points and are a unit your opponent is not likely to go for early on because they are not a threat, they just sit there and go to ground anytime a strong breeze blows by.

I don't like the wych special weapons, I'd rather have those points for extra wyches or sheilds on my vehicles.

I don't think you need the 3 squads of wyches if you take the incubi as well, 2 wych units and incubi is more than enough assault potential..

Drop a wych squad and get another ravager, you can never have too many of these. Drop a heami and get a blasterborn unit with a raider, points should just about work out.

You've now got 17 darklight weapons to open the cans to let your incubi and wyches go to work. There really is no point in loading an army with assault units if the enemy is safely tucked up in transports.

Unless the wyches have haywire grenades. Then they can surround transports and wreck them, killing the goodies inside.

I think this is a matter of play style, shooting vs assaulting. The blasterborn are good, just fragile sadly. Good point though.

9 Wyches are statistically better at causing and receiving damage than 8 Wyches with a Hydra Gauntlet.

I find the Venom/Raider debate kind of silly here, as everyone commenting on them is being a little silly to my mind - there's only two real questions;

1. Cost - the real cost difference is 5 points. Venom+S.Cannon upgrade vs. Raider+FF upgrade = 5 point difference.

2. What do you need - Venoms are GREAT and Raiders are GREAT but they are great at different things. Talking about how Venoms will eat infantry alive better than a DL Raider is about as fair as talking about how good the DL Raider is vs. a Leman Russ as compared to the Venom. They do different things.

Everyone seems to note that you have a lot of assault troops.
Assault troops like to kill infantry.
So do Venoms.
Raiders like to force infantry out of transports - this makes Venoms and assault troops happy.

Take the vehicle you need to make the army work best. If, after playing some games, you notice a weakness vs. infantry or mech - change the vehicle. As stands I think the Raider option is fine for the list and that a Venom wouldn't be out of place, but you probably need the anti-mech more.

so i guess having all the transports as raiders to kill other mech and then having the assault troops to kill whatever comes out is a fair tactic then? and so is dropping a wych unit for another ravager or a blasteborn unit and changing the warriors transports to venoms. in this case there is still the anti tank to clear up enemy mech and instead of wyches assaulting you shoot them to shreds with the venoms...

just depends what way i like to play?

i think i'd go with the wyches personally as i like the scoring units... although i would like a vanom or two cause they look ace...

as far as switching out the archon for a succubus goes i could do this but the archon was going with the incubi, i don't really need the grenade launcher if i dont assault into cover and i can take out the hydra gauntlets for more flickerfields...

any comments on this???

you guys are all great btw!

This is a revised list taking all that into account: -

Archon
Agoniser
Shadowfield

Heamonculus
Liquifier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquifier Gun

5 Incubi
Raider
Night Shield

4 Trueborn
4 Blasters
Venom
Splinter Cannon
Nightshield

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
Flickerfield
Nightshiled

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
Flickerfield
Nightshiled

7 Wyches
Haywire Grenaids
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider
Nightshield

7 Wyches
Haywire Grenaids
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider
Nightshield

Ravager
Flickerfield
Nightshields

Ravager
Flickerfield
Nightshields

i have 49 points left to throw around, my warrior raiders both have FF and NS and my wych raiders have NS. i can chop and change some of the upgrades to get a third ravager in but i don't know if the NS and FF are better... but yeah, 49 points left, what should i do? more wyches in the squads (although any more and i'll risk mullering whatever i run into in the first turn of combat then getting shot to hell in my opponents turn)? more incubi? some wracks to hold an objective? something else??

i've been advised that the FF's on the troop dump raiders are a tad redundant because they will either be

Quote :

flat out, or have no one inside either way.

so the NS just helps with any bolter/ melta guns etc. that are nearby after it has gone flat out to give it a bit more of a defensive edge above the 4+. after there are no troops the are ravagers to deal with over the raiders so they shouldn't attract much long range anyway.

the NS's on the warrior raiders, the venom and the two ravagers are just for that added few inches again for bolters blah blah blah but i can get 25 points if i dump those so that might be a good option... i'll have another tweak =]

after some re-tweaking i'm pretty happy: -
Archon
Agoniser
Shadowfield
Haywire Grenaids

Heamonculus
Liquifier Gun

Heamonculus
Liquifier Gun

5 Incubi
Raider
Night Shield

4 Trueborn
4 Blasters
Venom
Splinter Cannon
Nightshield

4 Trueborn
4 Blasters
Venom
Splinter Cannon
Nightshield

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
Flickerfield

5 Warriors
Blaster
Raider
Flickerfield

7 Wyches
Haywire Grenaids
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider
Nightshield

7 Wyches
Haywire Grenaids
Hekatrix
Agoniser
Raider
Nightshield

Ravager
Flickerfield

16 DL's, 4 scoring units, loads of awesome stuff...
my last decision to make is weather to use this list or substitute one unit of warriors in raider for a 2nd ravager and 3 wracks on their todd... making 18 DL's, 4 scoring units (allbeit one cruddy one)

other than this, this is my favourite (and what looks like best) list so far so i'm keeping the rest!

well i have decided to go with the warriors instead of the 2nd ravager, i'm losing a dark lance but gaining a useful scoring unit which for me seems like a good deal!

the wych squads are going to be bumped to 8 as well

thanks for all your help!