Advice on starting a cult

I felt the title needed to be worded that way to get some unwanted attention,

But to be honest, I've become bored with my list which has began to be called by my fellow FLGSers as a "Dark Eldar Gunline". So at this point I could just go for some fluff and entertainment. I hope to eventually convert my entire list to cult related units, but also be good enough to win. And call me out if imnwrong here, but this nlimits my troops to wyches, elites to blood brides, fast attack to anything but scourges, heavy support to flyers, and HQ to a succubus.

All I've really worked out is what I know works. At 500 points I'd have two haywire suicide squads on venoms, and my succubus with bloodbrides on a raider. The succy would have an electro corrosive whip to help with challenges, negate instant death, and make use of the +strength drug, with a syren and PGL. Going up to 1000 Pont's I'd probably add 6 reavers w/ heatlances and an arena champ, flush out the rest of the bloodbrides with the succubus, and here's where I get concerned. 10 wyches in a raider. Where do I go beyond here? I did think about adding the duke at some point for drug choices, but basically, how would I get an assault army to work?

I win more games than I lose with my "Gunline" so I want to up the challenge. But having played a snooty army for so long I don't want to just jump the gun and destroy my self esteem. So, any advice?

I have no knowledge of building an army, but I've always thought Reavers and Hellions would fit into a cult would they not?

Seeming as hellions and reavers both do wear wychsuits and take combat drugs...

And the reavers having arena champions made me alway think they fought in the cult based arena combats?

Just my thoughts, I might be way off on the fluff though!

Expletive Deleted wrote:

I've become bored with my list which has began to be called by my fellow FLGSers as a "Dark Eldar Gunline".

Yes, a 36" range army, the *definition* of gunline   
  

Expletive Deleted wrote:

And call me out if imnwrong here, but this nlimits my troops to wyches, elites to blood brides, fast attack to anything but scourges, heavy support to flyers, and HQ to a succubus.

It depends on your attitude of Cults. Frankly, if you want to run close enough to fluff to rule out Ravagers then you should also rule out Raiders, Reavers, Venoms, Hellions, et al.

I, personally, still proscribe to the official Cult list of the old codex when figuring out alliances - and under the old Cult build you had to field an Archite and could still bring Warriors, albeit only up to 3 of them in the Elite slot (while Wyches became Troop choices instead of Elite choices). Also, by definition, Haems ally with other factions - so, really, all Coven units are just as fluffy in a Wych list as they are in a Coven list.

So I would say, for an official "Cult List" you should have a Succubus as the official HQ/Archite, though feel free to bring Haems if you wish. Also, you can field Trueborn/Warriors but do so in limited quantities, probably limiting yourself to 3 or less of them combined in the army.

Definitely fielding a number of Wych/Bride units is fluffy.
I see no reason to disallow yourself Scourges (other than that they're not a very solid choice in army building in general) they are mercenaries and will work with whomever pays them.
Reavers used to be officially wyches in the old dex, so fielding a number of them would be very fluffy.
In the new codex flyers are officially piloted by Wyches, so again, that is fluffy, but I see no reason to avoid Ravagers as in the old codex they were official H. Slots of the Cult build.
Pretty much everything else is to taste, methinks, just have at least 4+ Wych units and a Succubus/Lilith HQ and I'd say you're fielding a Cult build.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

All I've really worked out is what I know works. At 500 points I'd have two haywire suicide squads on venoms, and my succubus with bloodbrides on a raider. The succy would have an electro corrosive whip to help with challenges, negate instant death, and make use of the +strength drug, with a syren and PGL. Going up to 1000 Pont's I'd probably add 6 reavers w/ heatlances and an arena champ, flush out the rest of the bloodbrides with the succubus, and here's where I get concerned. 10 wyches in a raider. Where do I go beyond here?  I did think about adding the duke at some point for drug choices, but basically, how would I get an assault army to work?

Assault armies are inferior in this edition, but you're on the roughly right track.
I'd advise forgetting about the Brides, they are pretty sub-par. Wyches are basically just as good at them at everything, but cost less and are scoring. Unless your Troop Slots are maxed and you want more Wyches there is almost no reason to even consider Brides as an option competitively speaking. If you want them for the modeling aspect, more power to you.

For Wyches to work you would want fairly sizable amounts of them. The suicide mini Wyches are good, but if you want to field that...well, you should probably be fielding a "Gunline" again. What Wyches want is things out of transports for them to assault. I'd bring in some Ravagers/Blasterborn to pop transports and then field a number of 7-8 man sized Wych squads with PGL, HWG, and v.blades (maybe aggies) for the assault. Pop transports and get your ladies stuck in. The Wyches can handle assaulting the tanks and stuff themselves. Just turbo up, disperse wyches across the board, and try to tarpit and grind down the opposition. Remember to feel free to hit a single squad with multiple wyches, you may often need the extra oomph in the assault.

Haems will be good with this list as FNP will make your ladies much more survivable.

With PGLs remember to try to assault through cover if possible to help weaken the overwatch damage as the 3+ or 4+ will be quite helpful in that regard.

I also will admit I think you could do better than an electrocorrosive whip on the Succubus, the whip is pretty substandard and really what the Succubus should be there for is added oomph in the assault, not trying to duel special characters.

I'm on a tablet at work so I can't cover everything right now, but thanks for the thorough response Thor.

Dragontree you are correct, at least I think. Reavers fight in arenas and that's usually a cult thing. Hellions however are just street thugs who will hire themselves out to either cults or kabals.

A few questions Thor. And yes I roll my eyes at the gunline thing too but you'd be surprised how much I hear it. My last opponent asked me why I didn't assault, you know, "because that's what we're good at." I was winning enough that I taught him a lesson and charged his necron warriors with my suicide wyches, which were all killed by overwatch, at that point his response was "oh."

A few questions/clarifications:

Why wouldn't you take max squad wyches?

I only really consider blood brides for the fluff, I'll be honest considering any elite option outside of trueborn isn't very competitive. At least in my experience. Except as an escort for your HQ. Incubi and Grots have their place but trueborn are soooo good.

I feel like harms would be too expensive for what they bring to the table. 50 points for a pain token on T3 at least doesn't sound to good on paper. I could be very wrong though.

Thanks for the tip on PGL, that's already a major strategy going into this.

I've never, ever, ever used a ECW because it seemed pretty lame. But my thoughts on that were that, I would not issue a challenge. And I agree with the added oomph. However, if my opponent issues a challenge, I wouldn't want my HQ to be taken out by a power maul, fist, claw whatever. Sure I could accept it with my hekatrix, but that's likely to only work one time, and if my succubus refuses a challenge her oomph is lost anyway.

Thought?

Expletive Deleted wrote:

My last opponent asked me why I didn't assault, you know, "because that's what we're good at." I was winning enough that I taught him a lesson and charged his necron warriors with my suicide wyches, which were all killed by overwatch, at that point his response was "oh."

Yeah, the correct way to describe that is, it's what we used to be good at. The new dex,a nd 6th pretty much made us a shooting army, straight up.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Why wouldn't you take max squad wyches?

Because I would rather field 5 squads of 7 than 4 squads of 10. I think what can kill 7 Wyches will kill 10 just as readily, whereas more lances and charge opportunities helps our army immensely.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

I feel like harms would be too expensive for what they bring to the table. 50 points for a pain token on T3 at least doesn't sound to good on paper. I could be very wrong though.

Well, actually it's probably more than 50 points, but you'll get a flamer or an alternate challenge accepting tool, plus the 5+ FNP and the Haem to dump wounds onto is pretty important as far as surviving explodiong vehicles with a functional assault unit left intact afterwards.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

However, if my opponent issues a challenge, I wouldn't want my HQ to be taken out by a power maul, fist, claw whatever.

A power maul, fist, klaw is a different type of threat depending on what it is attached to.
There are some things (like, say a generic Space Marine Sarge) that by the time the electrocorrosive "works" then it doesn't matter because the threat is dead.

There are other things, like, say Ghaz or Lysander, that...well, frankly, you shouldn't accept the challenge of whip or no, because they're going to stomp you, and the chance of the whip even doing much there is pretty darn slim against some of that stuff (yeah, go ahead, put an unsaved wound on Ghaz with your Str 3 power weapon...rock on with that plan)

So, already, it's useless against the low level and the high level threats.

So, what it is "good" at is against the mid level threats with multiple wounds. Stuff like...a regular Nob (who, frankly, most of the time you're better off with a Venom Blade or Agoniser anyway)...so, no, not them. And a lot of the IG HQs are pretty squishy, again, just a number of generic attacks probably wins that one anyway.

So, really, all you're doing is paying a lot of points for a power sword that will make you more survivable if you accept a challenge from Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine HQs equipped a certain way.

...I kind of think that will happen in less than 50% of your games.
And at that point...was their a point to bothering with the gimmick?

If you can wound them functionally with a Str 3 power weapon...then you probably have enough attacks and high enough Init to kill them with a cheaper Str 3 power weapon.
Or to kill them with an Aggie, which makes wounding easier.
Or to overwhelm them with a v.blade, which makes wounding even easier though armor tougher.

I just don't see an advantage to taking a weapon that will be less effective versus most challengers, in the fear of a certain subset of challengers. I dunno, maybe in your meta it makes more sense, or maybe you'll make it work for you and I'm wrong. But that's why I think the way I do.

Arch. I can't quote using this thing.

Smaller squads of wyches makes sense to me now. I only viewed it in terms of damage output, since I'm not very defensive minded.but true. One unit locking a unit in combat prevents overwatch on the next. I guess if points allow you can make the squads larger, but i'm guessing any specialist weapons on anything but the hekatrix would be right out then, which is a shame, I like the look of hydra gauntlets.

On the haem. I never realized vehicle wound s worked like that so provided he doesn't get killed before they're all allocated, does that mean I can assign all the wounds to him? Still seems expensive though. The effect is great, but it's still only up to three units, and chance for it to be totally effective.. It would be amazing in the succubus unit but that might be where I'd draw the line.

I think you've won me over on the ECW. Granted, that gimmick would be effective on a lot of armies I see, I still don't like it. So then the question is what weapon needed more, toughness or armor? Considering, 3/5 of the drugs, increases chances to wound, I'd think armor. So, its down to a power weapon or Agonizer. What I don't like about the Agonizer is it has a 33% chance NOT to benefit from combat drugs. Power Axe is straight out, power maul you may as well use venom blade. I'm leaning toward power lance.

I am a fan of the power lance.

Wounds from exploding vehicles are handled exactly like wounds from shooting, except the controlling player gets to choose how to allocate them (ref. pg. 80 Core Rulebook...and has the community come up with a name for the core rulebook yet? I know 4th was the big black, and 5th was the big red, what is 6th...the big sorta yellowish book...?) I might just start calling it the BYB...

And you don't need to max Haems, I'm not advocating that. But Haems are certainly a consideration to include in the army, and assuredly have their purpose in an assault build.

Aye, i can add to Thor.

Power Lance and Venom Blade seems to be the best Succubus load-out these days. At the cost of Agoniser you get very versatile HQ who will do what she must do.

And it is indeed small squads all the way. Because of Venoms. And because most damage output from Wych squad in close combat come from Hekatrix. I always always take Heka with Venom Blade.

You can consider unseemly things and go for Net 5man Wyches with Heka armed with Shardnet and Impaler. However strange this may sound - it does work, giving wyches good enough battle role on the battlefield.

And i said it before - if you going Wych Cult you need damage sponge. Beastmasters, Reavers, Hellions whatever in your face unit you have in mind. Wyches probably wont be assaulting first turn, sometime they wont be until 4th, if you use them in shooty venoms like me. They need something to be bigger target then them, so they can actually have chance to do some killing.

I'd rather take them, then take Haemies in the vain hope that FnP save someone.

i'd personally advocate trying out a couple units of wyches in raiders with enhanced aethersails. they bring a lot more hurt to combat and have a lot more staying power. one bad roll with a 5 man squad is enough to wipe your unit, its much less likely with a 10man. dark lance/dissie helpful too

succubus x2 as HQ,
bloodbrides in elites
wyches as troops
venom wyches for anti tank
reavers, hellions and beasts in fast (scourges are unaffiliated so feel free to hire them in, the kabals do after all)
flyers in heavy or loan in some monsters from the covens to fight in the arena pit!

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one bad roll with a 5 man squad is enough to wipe your unit, its much less likely with a 10man.

How is that more likely? Explosion in Venom brings 5 hits, Raider - 10 hits. Doesnt seem safer to me.

And if you are talking combat - you are not fighting fair, are you? Or with equal enemies that even have a chance in combat? What nonsense.

@azdrubael, he's putting combat upgrades into his 5 man squads so clearly he's prepping himself for combat with them. In combat 10 is always better than 5 if your aim is to win. Sometimes you fail a charge. Sometimes overwatch gets lucky, combo charging isn't guaranteed or even needed. Would you chuck in 2-3 units of 5 to mop up a guardsman squad putting your 2-3 venoms out of place, or one unit of ten in a raider?

10 rolls of a 4+ will average out better than 5 will, and you're more likely to kill more before they get to strike and force you to roll your saves to begin with.

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Would you chuck in 2-3 units of 5 to mop up a guardsman squad putting your 2-3 venoms out of place, or one unit of ten in a raider?

Yes. I would only do that. I am really non-believer in a wych cult army that do bulk of the killing by Wyches. Venoms and shooting still come first.

The reason is - you dont win a combat nowadays. No more no retreat wounds, its not that important to have this initial good first turn assault. Instead you kill your way throu combat. And Wyches suck at doing that.

Another reason is - if you take Wyches you got your premiere haywire squads that can take out any Vehicle. 5 man squad is enough to do it. If you take 10 man you just have one less unit that can take out vehicle in combat. And if you face 5-6 Wave Serpents, that does matter i tell you.

Azdrubael wrote:

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one bad roll with a 5 man squad is enough to wipe your unit, its much less likely with a 10man.

How is that more likely? Explosion in Venom brings 5 hits, Raider - 10 hits. Doesnt seem safer to me.

And if you are talking combat - you are not fighting fair, are you? Or with equal enemies that even have a chance in combat? What nonsense.

I'm not sure if this is what he meant or not but here's something I was thinking about in regards to wyches. As someone who uses my gunboats as gun platforms, I take into account that statistically, in an explosion, 45% of my warriors are going to die.And I'm okay with that. So long as the blaster and splinter cannon survive I can give my opponent 36 - 45 points of warriors. ( I leave them on the boat for splinter racks). I can't account for good or bad luck but I can account for chance.

So in a throwaway HWG unit this is fine. 55% of the wyches die. So even if your opponent blows your venom from right underneath you, you should still score 1-2 glances on whatever vehicle you're attacking.

What I'm worried about with the small units is this:

On normal MEQ enemies after an explosion the damage output goes like this(before losing any to overwatch):

5 Wyches - 0.833 wounds gets reduced to .333

6 Wyches - 1.000 wounds gets reduced to .333

7 Wyches - 1.167 wounds gets reduced to .500

8 Wyches - 1.333 wounds gets reduced to .500

9 Wyches - 1.500 wounds gets reduced to .667

10 Wyches - 1.667 wounds gets reduced to .667

Doesn't look like much I know but 9 wyches are slightly better than 7 wyches after an explosion. But when you're looking at it like this 10 wyches and two hydra gauntlets might be a statistically good build. Considering you can allocate wounds, with two hydra gauntlets you can negate the wyches that are going to die. With 4 wyches left after an explosion you'll only get 12 attacks. With the gauntlets, you'll get anywhere between 12 and 22 attacks. Consensus says another wych is better than a hydra gauntlet. But when you think/know you're wyches are going to die, buffing up the only ones left alive kind of makes sense to me. If you lose six wyches in an explosion having 1 hekatrix and 2 hyrda gauntlets leaves a pretty solid melee unit on the board. Sound legit?

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On normal MEQ enemies after an explosion the damage output goes like this(before losing any to overwatch):

This is getting old. MEQ are a dying breed sadly. They were Helldraked into oblivion.
At least in my area.
Targets are:
T5 Bikers (Khaaaaaaan)
T3 GEQ (Cultis, Pathfinders, Guardsmen, Avengers)
T5 Oblits
T6 MCs (Riptides)
T8 MCs (Wraithknights)


Throw Heka with venom blade and run those targets calculations, you'll see. I still stand by opinion - Hekatrix does bulk of the squads job. Bottom line is - higher the target toughness, less important is more bodies. Getting more bodies will only help with GEQ enough so that it would matter.

And MEQ isnt the problem actually, ok match. Question is - how to fight mechanised Eldar. And how to fight suit heavy Tau. Those are 2 questions that must be answered when designing army right now.

I could write a longer and moe complicated post, but Az basically hit the high points. To my mind the current tourney scene is not about 3+ armor, it's about Eldar, Tau, Superheavies, and Flyers in some combination.

That's why you still want HWGs and Lances, and that's why v.blades are better than ever and why the power lance makes so much sense over the aggie. Yes, there will still be MEQ threats, yes, there will be ones featuring a fair pile of MEQ bodies. But there's a reason you don't meta against Space Wolves and GKs anymore, y'know?

I see the point. I don't really play in tourneys. I've only been playing for 10 months and don't feel quite comfortable enough. Unfortunately no matter where I seem to go, as I've moved in the past two months, the meta is almost always littered with space marines, and to be honest I have never even played a match against Eldar. Not avoiding one, just never met anyone who plays them. I've played Tau once, and I didn't do too great, namely because I had no idea what I was doing.

Can I just paint a Wych Suit on a Revenant Titan? That'd probably solve a lot.

Since the discussion is mostly on wyches at the moment I'll say aside from the GEQ choice up above throwing even a full squad of five wyches against any of those units seems like a bad idea. In most cases you need a 4 to hit and a six to wound, exception being venom blade. And they still get a 3+ or 2+ armor.

So if you're saying just use five wyches to unlock venoms, sure, I get that. But that only leaves me with 30 t3 models with a 6+ save to get onto an objective. And they have to last 5 turns.

I guess this is where the combined wisdoms of "Anything that can kill 7 wyches can kill 10" and "You need a damage sponge"

In my mind it seems the wyches will be ineffectual at killing anything BUT GEQ and tanks so wouldn't it make since to gear them that way? Say five wyches with a hekatrix venom blade haywire grenades and hydra gauntlets cruising in a venom? They could still attack a wrathknight in a last ditch effort but jesus why would you for any other reason?

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But that only leaves me with 30 t3 models with a 6+ save to get onto an objective. And they have to last 5 turns.

Well, you playing Dark Eldar   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4

Azdrubael wrote:

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But that only leaves me with 30 t3 models with a 6+ save to get onto an objective. And they have to last 5 turns.

Well, you playing Dark Eldar   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4

True enough! I'm just used to having swaths of Kabalite Warriors, so this takes me out of my comfort zone.

So I think I have a good handle on the wyches now, and I've got a little army list I'm building.

Now I put my Succubus with bloodbrides as kind of a deathstar. They should destroy anything they touch, but my major concern is having 300 points on a boat that's prone to explode. Fluffwise I need to use bloodbrides, and I do like them, but you can bet I'm not fielding more than one unit of them.

I know I said flyers are fluffy, but do they have a place in a generally assaulty army? And are ours even worth considering in terms of anti-air and anti-superheavy being so flimsy?

well with flickerfield, our flyers dont have to evade to get a save. ravagers make excellent ground attack planes, given double dissies, splinter cannon and stock missiles, they can put the hurt on infantry squads pretty well.
Splinter cannon is decent for anti-FMC in combo with the lances but its not a great anti-tank platform. it will fall out of the sky to any dedicated AA unit though
the voidraven is the better AT solution and the armour 11 keeps it around a bit longer too.

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Now I put my Succubus with bloodbrides as kind of a deathstar

You might want to put Aethersails on the Raider and start it in reserves, or if you are sure you can LOS-block then on the table.

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And are ours even worth considering in terms of anti-air and anti-superheavy being so flimsy?

Stock Razorwings are good enough. Void Raven is very costly. Neither does bring good anti-air for the points, but at least you will have that option, so if you take Razorwings better keep Lances. Razorwings are very good at killing/grounding Flying Monstruous Creatures, especially with added Splinter Cannon.

Considering FMC are part of popular takes in atleast 3 armies (Daemons, CSM, Tyranids) this might pay off.

I can see the razorwing as being a jack of all trades flyer, able to hunt large targets, vehicles, and blast the crap out of infantry. I've never used one before, what scares me about'em is the AV10. Anything with interceptor has a good chance to blow it out of the air before it sees the light of day. Also there's a lot of S7+ twin-linked guns out there. Plus just about everyone's basic infantry can glance it to death.

Also, is it worth it to add an oddball missile or two for specific targets, or monoscythe all day everyday?

monoscythe wounds most units on 2's anyway being S6. i dont see the point in the others as they cost a lot and don't really do much that the stock ones don't do cheaper or better.

i guess it depends on your gaming environment, i tend to play more with friends at home with the odd game at the club. none of my mates are cron air or triple hellturkey players so mine sees action and works well. it'll work a lot less well if you're facing an AA TauDar list in a WAAC tourney though.

Monoscythe is, by far, the best option available on a price to damage ratio.

I running Wych cult Blade Denied and it`s one hell of the challenge!   
In our codex we have several realy cool cults with fluff and stuff.

So it`s just depend on your wishes. U can play specific way, or just go many-many wyches-rivers-hellions.

So no matter how many times I sit down to write this list whatever I come with, I don't like it. I usually run a shooty army with some assault for support. Not vice versa. How exactly do you approach the opponent, you can't hang back and sit in your transports shooting because you'll be wasting your assault units, but if you turbo boost into position you lose a turn of shooting. Even if you go first, you'll generally be at a disadvantage. You'll get shot up before you ever attack. Deepstriking and Webways aren't the answer clearly. And Aethersails only help with the latter, you still lose a turn of shooting.

I'm leery of nightshields because my transports will get close enough to negate the effect, on the other hand it might bring my opponent closer to me. And generally the things that will blow up my transports have monstrous range anyway.

Or am I making it a bigger deal than it is and It's as simple as move 12" shoot, hope to kill infantry or a tank. Then move 6" disembark 6" charge?