Venoms vs Raiders

This is something I have been eagerly waiting to discuss since the beginning of seventh. With Jink and vehicle charts as they are now has raider spam actually became as effective as venom spam. Or at least a mix of the two. Being a newb to DE, I am looking at some insight on this. Originally I was going to run venom spam with warriors and such, but now since transports aren't such massive death traps anymore did the raider become just as effective? I would probably be running 3 elite slots with venoms and then possibly 2 more venoms in my troops with warriors. More than likely would be running wyches in raiders. This then kind of ties into if assault has been made more effective now. I'm still reading through the rule book.  Especially with duke it seems like it would be a lot of fun. I would really love to find a way to run about 2-3 x10 wych squads with cheap haemons.

Synergy is the lame word I would use. Boats of wyches supported by the shear volume of fire from warriors/trueborns in venoms is potent. It is also fun. The venoms can be used to soften up tough enemies like terminators, high toughness units, monstrous creatures etc or simply rip apart hordes so that the wyches aren't going to  get killed due to shear volume of attacks. Pair this up with some ravagers for tank busting or blaster-born in venoms for some tank busting and to rip apart expensive units.

Edit: Together they are very effective but I don't think pure raider spam is better than venom spam. Simply because of the threat bubble of the venom in comparison to raiders with warriors in it, also the profile of the venom lets you get some nice 4+ cover saves. Combine that with Night shields and you can really annoy your opponents. But, together they work beautifully

I do not even use Ravagers, I use two venom's and a lot of Raiders, Most people seem to forget that the passengers can fire at a different target then the vehicle so one Venom with a couple of dark lance Trueborns can take out a vehicle and a term squad each turn pretty easily.

With so much "smaller" fire coming from the squads in the Raiders, Which is right in there face, They are normally to distracted to shoot at the two venom's. I always believed that the venom s firepower mixed with some dark lances here and there are more then enough for anything, making Ravagers kind of pointless. That's my opinion anyway.

They can shoot at different targets? Can you quote that from the rules? If so that would be great. I would never say ravagers are redundant though. Being able to move 12" and fire all weapons at full BS is brilliant while a venom has to be stationary in order for the dark lances to shoot. Seems a waste to me. Blasters in a venom, yes, dark lances, no.

Grub wrote:

They can shoot at different targets? Can you quote that from the rules?

They're different units so there's no reason why they would need to fire at the same target. Can you show me anything in the rules that says they do?

That's good, just my interpretation that all! I just assumed which as we all know is a mistake! Oh the new found potential is delicious.

Just in case you need evidence, it's under Fire Points in the Transports section of the vehicle rules:

Quote :

Note that the passengers can shoot at a different target to the vehicle itself.

I would have taken your word for it. Cant say it has effected me to much in the past, I tend to like units to have specific roles rather than trying to half heartedly do both! Except for blasterborn I may add.

i rarely ever move my venom's, they are more or less my gun platforms unless i use them to take an objective real quick. Which i rarely need to do because the enemy is usually tabled that is why I love DE lol, as for the ravagers, i may try them out, but i need the models first lol.

Its_Rumble wrote:

This is something I have been eagerly waiting to discuss since the beginning of seventh. With Jink and vehicle charts as they are now has raider spam actually became as effective as venom spam. Or at least a mix of the two.

Last I checked Raider spam or a mix has *always* been good.
In fact it's all I've run with this codex since Day 1.

Dark eldar are unique in that win in the movement phase. Movement is your friend and raiders and venoms are pretty good at it so why split hairs