MC's and charging models on different levels

Can a MC charge a model on another level of a building. Say a carnifex or wraithknight want to charge models on the second level of ruin. do they have to be able to fit their base of the second level or can it just make to the ruin?

They have to get to the second level. Despite their model size, the rules for close combat still require BASE to BASE.

Nope, sorry, that is wrong. As long as you roll the required distance then you 'follow the same rules as in the Movement phase..' (P46) Since the rules in the Movement phase make allowances for not being to fully balance a model in it's place (Wobbly Model Syndrome, P20) then you simply invoke this rule and count the model as being in it's correct position. You'd have to be a bit harsh to insist that your opponent balances his, possibly expensive, model in a precarious position.

Well...I actually think both of the above posters are saying basically correct things, and Timatron is just misunderstanding what Squidmaster is saying. I'm just going to run you through all the various aspects of what you're asking here;

colinsherlow wrote:

Can a MC charge a model on another level of a building.

Yes.

colinsherlow wrote:

Say a carnifex or wraithknight want to charge models on the second level of ruin.

Both of these are theoretically possible...and also theoretically not possible, and can depend.

colinsherlow wrote:

do they have to be able to fit their base of the second level

The official rule is that you need to be able to "finish the move on a location where it can be stood" (page 387). Now, Wobbly model *can* be called into effect as long as you can functionally, claim that the model could fit there.

colinsherlow wrote:

or can it just make to the ruin?

This is not legit. You would need to be able to both make the assault distance to the ruin and *also* the 3" to move up to the second level.

Generally speaking a wraithknight or a carnifex has issues with being on some levels of a ruin because they are physically too tall to fit in the ruin. This has nothing to do with their base size or with being wobbly, but with the overall size of the model. I see nothing in the rules that waives this, you do need to be able to physically fit the model into the space to claim it can occupy it.

Per the rules your entire base does not need to be fully supported by the level you are on since you can call wobbly.

In true GW fashion they do not clarify how much variance this actually grants you (do you need 75% of the base on the level, 50%, 25%, 5%?) No one knows.

I'd say a good rule of thumb is that you need both the horizontal and vertical movement (fully supported by the rules) You also need to be able to physically get the model into wherever you're trying to charge to (fully supported by the rules) and I'd say that getting 50% of your base into the area and then calling wobbly is legit (totally a made up value call by Thor).

That's my take.

That's more or less where I was going yes.
You still need to get base to base, but can of course call wobbly. Wobbly doesn't discount the range needed to charge though, it just means you don;t have to put your large, expensive model somewhere dangerous.
What I meant is that rules-wise, in order to charge a unit you need t measure the range base to base, taking levels into account.

I was definitely not claiming that models don't need to make the distance into base-to-base. I was just pointing out that you can't stand up on level 2 going "ner ner, your model doesn't balance up here, can't assault me."

Timatron wrote:

I was definitely not claiming that models don't need to make the distance into base-to-base. I was just pointing out that you can't stand up on level 2 going "ner ner, your model doesn't balance up here, can't assault me."

Well actually you can if there's not enough space for another model to balance up there surely? Most of the levels of the GW standard ruins are far too small to fit a Carnifex on.

Talos on the other hand... Now there's a nice small MC base...

Sounds like a thing you should bring up with whoever you're playing. I can see the situation you mean, and even though a carnifex can't stand up there on the narrow exposed wall with the marines or whatever, it makes sense that it could attack them since it can definitely reach.

I'd say, since eg. squads on different levels count as coherent within 6" vertically, that rules involving the closeness of bases are relaxed when levels are involved.
The guys being attacked are "in contact" with the MC's head/torso/massive claws, for example, which they'd definitely be allowed to shoot at if it was poking over cover. I've always felt GW were annoyingly inconsistent when it came to actual model vs base, and what's important when.

Anyway I know nothing I said is the actual rules, I just think it should be, and if you were playing against me I'd let you do it!