Scourges in 7th ed

Hi all

Just slowly putting together a 5 man unit of scourges and wanted some thoughts on the loadout for them in 7th. Doing a search had a few posts recommending haywire blasters but with a change in the vehicle damage table are they worth it? doing 2 hp and no chance for a vehicle explode from a 5 man unit it does not seem so powerful anymore. What are you all finding using them now? How do you arm them to cope with a changing meta and make them effective to boot?

Cheers

Good for Imperial Knights, almost free HP? when equipped with HBs.

I still don't like that you need a 3+ to hit and only get two shots. For a similar cost, I'd rather take 5 wyches in a raider with haywire grenades. Combining the throw grenade with 5 grenades in assault you can knock out 6 hull points and it gives you two objective secured units.

I like them. Used different weapon combination and can`t say for sure, which is best.
Every gun has it`s purpose.

lessthanjeff wrote:

Combining the throw grenade with 5 grenades in assault you can knock out 6 hull points and it gives you two objective secured units.

Did you mean that every model could throw HG in an assault phase? I guess that's impossible as the new rulebook says:

"Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" (180p)

lelith wrote:

lessthanjeff wrote:

Combining the throw grenade with 5 grenades in assault you can knock out 6 hull points and it gives you two objective secured units.

Did you mean that every model could throw HG in an assault phase? I guess that's impossible as the new rulebook says:

"Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" (180p)

Actually, it's not. The grenades that specifically allow it are not "thrown". They are used as a melee weapon and have a profile for using them as such. Since they're a melee weapon in assault, the above quoted rule is irrelevant to them.

So basically:

In the shooting phase: A unit equipped with HWG may thrown ONE.
In the assault phase: A unit equipped with HWG may use them as a melee weapon, but each model that does so only gets 1 attack, regardless of the number of attacks on their profile.

If I did use them, I don't think I'd buy them any upgrades (maybe splintercannons) and I'd just let them harass enemy infantry. A mobile unit averaging out 5 wounds a turn for 110 points isn't too bad.

Spending 130 points for just 2 chances to take a hullpoint at BS4 are not as impressive to me. I miss my old scourges that could take 4 weapons in a 5 man squad. Too many shots are wasted going anti-vehicle for me.

Haywire in squads of 10 can be a threat, but cost to much to be practical I think. In squads of 5 it just doesn't do enough. I opt for heat lances personally, and deep strike them. The result have been mostly good, but it's risky.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

lelith wrote:

lessthanjeff wrote:

Combining the throw grenade with 5 grenades in assault you can knock out 6 hull points and it gives you two objective secured units.

Did you mean that every model could throw HG in an assault phase? I guess that's impossible as the new rulebook says:

"Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" (180p)

Actually, it's not. The grenades that specifically allow it are not "thrown". They are used as a melee weapon and have a profile for using them as such. Since they're a melee weapon in assault, the above quoted rule is irrelevant to them.

So basically:

In the shooting phase: A unit equipped with HWG may thrown ONE.
In the assault phase: A unit equipped with HWG may use them as a melee weapon, but each model that does so only gets 1 attack, regardless of the number of attacks on their profile.

Oh, thanks for your correction, BetrayTheWorld. Now haywire wyches look extremely attractive for me   

Tale 10 Scourges, not 5. That'll solve a lot. The trouble with Dark Lances is they take a LOT of them to kill vehicles. If you're going to expend that many points just to GET Lances, why NOT go with Haywire Grenades, you know? And the point on Imperial KNights is no joke. Killing those is lots of fun.

The Scourges give you a really cool unit that looks good. Aside from aesthetics, they kill Non-vehicle units too so they aren't points wasted against the hordes of the world.

As mobile as they are and with as many objectives as you need to get to in Maelstrom and other missions, I would think the mobility of the Scourges would be a very attractive side benefit and while their Hammer of Wrath attacks will in fact scare no one, they can at least serve as a last line of defense when they must.

Scourges have been rare in Dark Eldar armies for so long that I think we now disacard them out of HABIT. But people psent 250 points without thinking about it to get a pair of Ravagers that collectively average 2 damage results per turn against armor! Think about that for a second. When is the last time you saw a 260 point Scourge unit get Two-shot'd to death? You never have. and they deep strike. Added bonus for those brave enough to employ such tactica.

So... The Shard Carbines add a huge number of shots the Ravagers dont get. If Ravagers gave you 9 Carbine shots each would you consider that cool? Well 250 gets you two ravagers that don't do this. 260 gets you 10 Scourges that DO.

You will lose Scourges just like you lose all units in 40K. It happens. But no more or less quickly than the Ravagers themselves.

Food for thought.

I also think scourges > ravagers in terms of killiness v survivability. They do suit my playstyle though.

Despite new vehicle rules, hb still work ok for my meta as most enemy vehicles that come at me aren't transports. So hullponting a battle tank to death is just fine and I don't care as much about exploding them. Saying that...

(The transports I do meet are often plague rhinos and exploding those v rarely hurts the occupants anyway.)

Taking them with cannons 'n carbines lets you kill MCs like swatting flies. Actually way easier. Howling into a heatlance deep strike is a lot of fun too, but beware the ig army with tanks in front of blobs. Nowhere to land. Last time all my birdbrained scourges landed in the middle of an enemy squad and sprained all their ankles. Ugh.

EDIT: oh yeah and maelstrom! Fast shooty scoring units. Scourge it up, guys.

lelith wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

lelith wrote:

lessthanjeff wrote:

Combining the throw grenade with 5 grenades in assault you can knock out 6 hull points and it gives you two objective secured units.

Did you mean that every model could throw HG in an assault phase? I guess that's impossible as the new rulebook says:

"Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" (180p)

Actually, it's not. The grenades that specifically allow it are not "thrown". They are used as a melee weapon and have a profile for using them as such. Since they're a melee weapon in assault, the above quoted rule is irrelevant to them.

So basically:

In the shooting phase: A unit equipped with HWG may thrown ONE.
In the assault phase: A unit equipped with HWG may use them as a melee weapon, but each model that does so only gets 1 attack, regardless of the number of attacks on their profile.

Oh, thanks for your correction, BetrayTheWorld. Now haywire wyches look extremely attractive for me   

Following up, the reason it's stated as 'per phase' rather than 'per shooting phase' is that one model can chuck a grenade in overwatch.

On topic, Haywire blasters all the way. I run 5 with 2 haywire and it seems to work pretty well. They're a good 'finisher' unit - I tend to use mine to strip the final hull point or last 1/2 wounds from an infantry squad when I don't want to waste an entire unit's worth of shooting (e.g. pointing a tri-lance ravager at a single hull point tank). The fact that most basic units are T4 or less means that the haywire blasters are effectively single-shot shardcarbines with 6" of extra range, the majority of the time you'll have 11 shots hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s against most opposition.

+EDIT+ In fact, they're even better now with the nerf to the damage table. Yes, you have no chance to destroy a vehicle unless it's an open topped vehicle, but previously the chances were only 1/36 from a single hit (6 followed by a 6). It's far, far easier now to destroy vehicles by stripping away their hull points than it is by aiming for an explosion where any penetrating hit has, at it's absolute best, a 50/50 chance to get an Explodes! result. Compare to Dark Lances - Dark Lances will glance everything on a 4+ or better, but only ever have a 1/6 shot of breaking said thing, and frequently you'll be 50/50 to get a hull point. Haywire blasters are always 5/6 to get rid of a hull point.

Also don't forget that they have ghostplate armour. That's as good a save as most eldar aspect warriors and a 6++. They can be shot at by AP5 rifles and not necessarily all die.

Panic_Puppet wrote:

Following up, the reason it's stated as 'per phase' rather than 'per shooting phase' is that one model can chuck a grenade in overwatch.

Hang on, what? You can do that?!

Barking Agatha wrote:

Also don't forget that they have ghostplate armour. That's as good a save as most eldar aspect warriors and a 6++. They can be shot at by AP5 rifles and not necessarily all die.

Panic_Puppet wrote:

Following up, the reason it's stated as 'per phase' rather than 'per shooting phase' is that one model can chuck a grenade in overwatch.

Hang on, what? You can do that?!

Yep. As long as the grenade isn't a blast then you're good to go.

Can't be unwieldy either (e.g meltabombs) which means you're limited to Haywire and Krak, but still. The wording is "When a unit armed with X grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon". I'm waiting for the day when a lone autarch assaults only to get cut down by an auspicious krak grenade to the face on his way in....

Haha, imagine killing a dreadnought by overwatch when it looks like all you're packing is a splinter pistol, a killer 'do and a metal bikini.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Barking Agatha wrote:

Also don't forget that they have ghostplate armour. That's as good a save as most eldar aspect warriors and a 6++. They can be shot at by AP5 rifles and not necessarily all die.

Panic_Puppet wrote:

Following up, the reason it's stated as 'per phase' rather than 'per shooting phase' is that one model can chuck a grenade in overwatch.

Hang on, what? You can do that?!

Yep. As long as the grenade isn't a blast then you're good to go.

Snap-shotting grenades at aircraft is pretty fun too. I almost got a Stormtalon with a Krak grenade once.

I once got a storm talon with a snap-shooting, fleeing trueborn, and missed crashing it on his warlord's head by half an inch. So close...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that haywire blasters have the possibility(albeit a small one) of stripping 2 hull points per shot from AV10. This is a fairly nice bonus, however...

I still think I prefer heat lances to either HW blasters or blasters/lances. Heat lances have to be used closer, sure. But they provide the best AT fire from their optimal range, with a 50% chance of a pen resulting in an explosion vs. an open-topped vehicle.

thesaltedwound wrote:

Haha, imagine killing a dreadnought by overwatch when it looks like all you're packing is a splinter pistol, a killer 'do and a metal bikini.

1 my scourge have killed dreadnought by overwatch.
It was ironclad. I roll 6 on overwatch with hayware blaster. 6 to armor pen. and 6 as result.
Bada-boom!

My opponent was like: Say whaaat?   

I just finished priming my other 5 scourge, i like the comparison of the scourge with the ravagers... hmmm. I might have to try them.

Skari wrote:

I just finished priming my other 5 scourge, i like the comparison of the scourge with the ravagers... hmmm. I might have to try them.

Please do!

I deployed a 5 man unit of birdboys with two splinter canons in my last game against tyranids. First time i've used them.

Now I want more. They are a great harrasment unit always staying out of range while picking of stray enemy units. Really worked like a charme

Oh yes and further more their wings make excellent pillows when they are done dying.

I have 10 Scourges and need to get those bad boys painted up. I also need buckshot cause dang those models are top heavy

I have also found five scourges with two splinter cannons to work really well.