WWP, Can it be done?

Total Roster Cost: 1999

HQ: Baron Sathonyx (105 pts)
1 Baron Sathonyx

HQ: Haemonculus (190 pts)
1 Haemonculus + Liquifier Gun x1 + Webway Portal x1
1 Haemonculus + Liquifier Gun x1 + Webway Portal x1

Elite: Kabalite Trueborn (108 pts)
4 Kabalite Trueborn + Blaster x4

Elite: Kabalite Trueborn (108 pts)
4 Kabalite Trueborn + Blaster x4

Troops: Hellion (265 pts)
14 Hellion
1 Helliarch + Agoniser

Troops: Kabalite Warriors (158 pts)
7 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1
1 Raider + Night Shields + Flickerfield

Troops: Kabalite Warriors (158 pts)
7 Kabalite Warriors + Blaster x1
1 Raider + Night Shields + Flickerfield

Fast Attack: Beastmasters (114 pts)
2 Beastmasters
5 Khymerae
2 Razorwing Flocks

Fast Attack: Beastmasters (114 pts)
2 Beastmasters
5 Khymerae
2 Razorwing Flocks

Fast Attack: Reavers (234 pts)
9 Reavers + Heat Lance x3

Heavy Support: Talos Pain Engine (135 pts)
1 Talos Pain Engine + Close Combat Weapon x1 + Chain-flails + TL Heat Lance

Heavy Support: Talos Pain Engine (135 pts)
1 Talos Pain Engine + Close Combat Weapon x1 + Chain-flails + TL Heat Lance

Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter (175 pts)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter + Splinter Cannon x1 + Night Shields + Flickerfield



Alternatively I could remove the warriors and add some wracks in a venom OR remove some trueborn and the warriors and add much large wrack squads (ones that could survive the initial downpour of fire while still being a threat). What do you guys think?

wouldn't this belong in the other forum for armylists?

Of course this is the direction its going, you asked an open ended question. This is like the difference between asking for fish and how to fish. If you want a working list, check tourney results. If you want to know how to make your own, lots of people have filled this thread with great advice.

"Personally, I feel that in order to optimize a WWP list, it is important to go all or nothing."

why? you keep insisting this. but why?

If you want only WWP units, then make a themed list, but don't get mad at strategy advice. It's like the 40konline people asking for strategy tips, and screaming bloody murder when you tell them to take khorne and tzeentch dudes in the same list.

So no vehicles makes long fangs ineffective, until they switch to frag missiles. Or you meet a Baalpred or PlasRuss. Your point?

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

wouldn't this belong in the other forum for armylists?

Of course this is the direction its going, you asked an open ended question. This is like the difference between asking for fish and how to fish. If you want a working list, check tourney results. If you want to know how to make your own, lots of people have filled this thread with great advice.

"Personally, I feel that in order to optimize a WWP list, it is important to go all or nothing."

why? you keep insisting this. but why?

If you want only WWP units, then make a themed list, but don't get mad at strategy advice. It's like the 40konline people asking for strategy tips, and screaming bloody murder when you tell them to take khorne and tzeentch dudes in the same list.

So no vehicles makes long fangs ineffective, until they switch to frag missiles. Or you meet a Baalpred or PlasRuss. Your point?

Rofl, alright, im done with this this thread. I've posted plenty of reasons why I believe it is important to go all or nothing. Like factual reasons, based on units commonly seen in competitive environments, and based on successful lists of the competitive meta (min/max). So far all you've said to support your arguments is that its hurting me, or it will not be successful, when based on what you've said, you haven't tried running an all or nothing list yourself. To look at a list, or build idea, and say, but you should throw more vehicles in there because you can, doesn't mean that its the only way to build the list, or the most successful. Currently, the only 2 tournament winning lists that have come from the DE codex are venom spam, and darklight spam, neither of which takes a well-rounded list from the codex. WWP hasn't topped tournaments, mostly because an arm's success in the tournament scene relies on minimizing risk, and the WWP list is risky. The risk is balanced, however, if you utilize these WWPs to their fullest potential. Using them to unload units which lack ranged firepower or speed, but excel greatly in combat (beasts, talos, hellions, etc.).

Just the fact that you support harlequins shows that you have not faced truly competitive lists. Harlequins melt like butter, can't take a dedicated transport, and do not do much that other units in the army can't do more successfully. Anti-MEQ, incubi, elites/hordes, wyches, high toughness units, wracks. They are an awesome looking unit, but need to take harlequins kisses to be successful, and are too expensive at this point. There is a reason no winning competitive Eldar army takes them. The Dark Eldar version is identical.

If your stating that frag missiles are good anti-troop, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Being a long-time space marine player I can tell you personally that frag missiles are horrible except when facing horde armies which are not able to spread out. At most missiles will hit 1/2 members of the unit, probably only killing 1, firing krak missiles is the better alternative. Any smart general will spread his troops to minimize the effect of blast weaponry. lets take the other competitive ranged AT, autocannons, assault cannons, etc. All of these will do minimal damage vs. troops, while completely wrecking transports. You can't tell me most of your 4/5 vehicles would survive 1 turn when facing 3 double auto dreads, supported with several other AT sources, which most space marine armies can easily bring. A plas-russ suffers from this just as much as missile launchers. yes they are deadly, but the speed of units entering from a WWP should give them a limited amount of time to fire. They make their points back by killing expensive MEQ (terminators), killing several warriors/beasts will not help them do that. With a lower BS there is much more of a chance for blasts to spread off the unit as well. As for baal preds. I should be able to get cover/FnP against all of those shots, losing several models is preferable to losing 1/2 transports. You asked why, although I had already given reasons as to why, but here is more.

Don't try to say that I'm not paying attention to the given advice. I think every other poster has supplied me with intelligent information which supports a WWP army, also posting lists of their own (so I don't quite understand your "Army Lists" comment). I understand that you are suggesting units that have worked in your personal rounded DE lists, but the purpose of this thread was to discuss units specific to WWP army, and whether or not a pure WWP army can be successful. I'm sorry if that was not clear in my initial post, but other posters seemed to have been following this same logic. Again, this is not a personal jibe at you, I am just confused as to what you are trying to achieve with your posts, as they are not relevant to a WWP specific army, and when confronted as to whether portals are useful for deploying 1/2 extra units (talos) you have yet to justify with unit builds, examples or instances where this has been successful. I am not attempting to be close-minded, I am attempting to be focused, as focused lists are the most successful in a competitive environment.

Calm down.

I won't tell you to "pay more attention." My first and third and last posts have plenty of evidence, feel free to check.

Ok, so now I get some reasons from you. Sorry you have to get angry and frustrated to come up with them.

So, we're talking about competitive environments? Competitive environments have skilled players, yes? The book hasn't been out a year. It's not the most popular competitive codex, not even close to Marine codices. There's a steep learning curve too, as there always was. Of course people are going to take awhile. Having been to several tournaments, match-ups count for a LOT. Listen to the guy who made "leafblower" talk about its reliance on good match-ups and dumb opponents. Venom spam and darklight spam are both mech lists. They're both principled around the same idea - lots of firepower. But are they optimal? Are other builds possible? Perhaps.

So Harlequins are bad, and I'm bad for using them? same points as an incubi for a model with a 5+ invuln, rending, the ability to move and assault through cover uninhibited, 2 more attacks, and the option of a shadowseer is clearly bad.

Your idea of "competitive" seems to be synonymous with "someone else's list from a tournament." Is this correct? How many craftworld eldar players do you see at tournaments anyway?

Frag missiles are not, you're right... but you said no/minimal vehicles. So I put two kraks into your Razorwing, it dies, and... What do I do the rest of the game? Oh, right. Hit as many things as possible with every volley. I wish assault cannons did "minimal damage versus troops". I wish those autocannons wouldn't tear those pain engines to pieces. But there are no vehicles to stop them from shooting them, feeding them sacrificial units and shooting them after single player turn combats and choking the WWP. You seem to value marines and guard much more highly than your own army - yet do you really think that they don't have ways to stop you from leaving midfield on foot? And how do you get cover against a flamestorm cannon? Both weapons have S6, so there goes your FnP.

I don't care what others did. If you want to be spoon fed lists, there's a section marked accordingly. If you want general advice and discussion, here you are.

"Alright. So I really REALLY like the idea behind WWP and I would really REALLY like to make it work as a competitive tournament army. However, holding everything in reserve just scares me like none-other. I am hoping that the ability to come on from 2 spots on opposite ends of the field and a whole table edge will soften that blow, but I'm just not so sure. In order to make my current list work I would also need to buy 2 Talos, an additional box of hellions and maybe some scourges or more bikes. Before spending 100+ dollars I wanted to ask my dark city brethren what they think of WWP as a viable build."

So, you want general advice. You're also not experienced at using reserves.

"Will it work? Have you tried it? Have you seen it work? What units worked great? What armies is it good/bad against? etc."

Yes, if it works cohesively and you can use it successfully. Yes. You obviously care about "suggesting units that have worked in your personal rounded DE lists" which is ALL OF THEM regardless of how much infantry or mech is there. Do you like to play Rock/Paper/Scissors? I don't, it's boring and skill-less. Are there bad match-ups? Obviously. In general, I find going primarily, almost completely webway makes you good against horde and assault armies. Mech is slightly tilted toward other mech. Again, it's up to what else you take.

And of course they're not relevant to YOUR themed WWP army. But my heavily skewed towards WWP methodology, rather than one list to rule them all, is relevant to any tournament WWP, just as everyone else's are.

"Any information to help me make my decision would be greatly appreciated. The alternative would be to run a wych cult or coven list. I can't do a regular warrior/blasterborn build, its just too predictable and boring. THANKS!"

Here's information to help you. And you're SO right, the typical warrior blasterborn IS predictable and boring. You bring scissor every time, so you table paper, rock owns you, and scissors is an exercise in frustration. You're winning somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the time, are you having fun?

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Calm down.

I'm sorry if I overreacted earlier. I've just been posting in a tactical forum expecting to receive tactical advice, not generalized comments that add little to the discussion:

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I won't tell you to "pay more attention." My first and third and last posts have plenty of evidence, feel free to check.

K, lets take a look,

Your first post:

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Try working with a Dark Eldar list that you know works before experimenting with WWP. If holding everything, or almost everything in reserve frightens you, more experience with reserves is INFINITELY more helpful than a killer list, or anything else. Without Vect, full reserve is a pretty sound tactic against most armies when going second - especially Psiflemen Dreads, Hydras, and anything with tons of medium strength shooting.

I have played other Dark Eldar lists, I have every model that has been released, and have competed in 3 local tournaments placing in the top 10. I have also reserved before. I never said that I am unfamiliar with reserving. I have posted in several other threads that I think reserving in some situations is critical. I have also played a reservist Eldar army that utilized dual altarchs in competitive tournaments, placing in the top 5 each time. I understand reserves. Its not the ACT of reserving which worries me, it is that Dark Eldar have such powerful reserve capabilities (ala WWP) but no way to influence when the reserves arive, unlike other armies (drop pod, eldar, imperial guard, etc). Assumptions can be dangerous, and you appear to assume a lot.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Also, while the Kabal/Coven/Cult distinctions are helpful, it's important not to let them mire you in making a good list. Most good lists incorporate 2 or more of these factions in some way. If you want to make a themed/fluff list, then by all means, but if strategy is of any importance you need to consider how rigidly you'll follow your background. I personally like to make a list first, and let the story behind the army unfold from playtesting.

All competitive lists are, at this point, Kabal lists (almost purely). Blasterborn, warrior, ravager, MAYBE a wych unit or two. This is the competitive build which has had so much recent success at tournaments, simply because the other lists weren't supported with models (Coven) or players were hesitant to try due to current tournament meta (tank heavy, Cults struggle with them).

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Further, mono-Kabal lists make excellent candidates for WWP as well. And I highly recommend you integrate some vehicles, or consider a couple infantry units to potentially start on the board. Vehicles can't use the portal, but they can use strategic reserve, and vehicles with Supersonic and Aerial Assault rules synergize well with portal lists.

Examples? Battle Reports? Scenarios? Simply stating that "vehicles work well with WWP" and not providing any reasoning behind this statement simply smacks of, "in the several games I've played my vehicles have done well".

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Rigidity and dogmatism are a mon-keigh general's tools. Being flexible, fluid, and adaptive allow you to respond to your opponent long enough to establish control, and begin dictating the tempo of the game. For the WWP user, this often means being able to deploy/reserve units without using the portal.

What is coming through your portals? you have yet to give any list builds/ideas yet, besides, throw some warriors, harlequins in there and a couple vehicles and see what happens (all of which you have yet to support with scenarios, battle references, points calculations, etc.). If you are sending through a limited number of units, I just feel that you are under-utilizing portals. Not only do they cost points, but a sufficient amount of maneuvering to get them in place. I could easily build a reserve list that doesn't use portals with transports that would do great as well, but my intention was to build a list that primarily uses WWP, hence the WWP in the name of this thread.

Post number 3:

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

What I'm asking is why you have this one or the other mentality when it's clearly hurting you. I'm not clearly building anything, certainly not a Raider Rush army! Best not to accuse, but to ask.

THEN WHAT ARE YOU BUILDING???? I swear, you have commented on everyone elses build suggestions while offering none of your own. Honestly, if you provided a single list, maybe we could comment on it, point out its successes and where we believe or have experienced failure.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

If you're running a WWP, then obviously big Wych squads running out of the portal is going to work better. But that portal's a lot better if you can drop it into midfield, with help from a transport.

Right, which is common knowledge. Many players argue, however, that beast and hellions are much better CC units coming from portals due to their large movement/charge distances. This makes up for their lack of transports, which is what wyches rely on in other lists to make it to combat. To assume that there will be a valuable target within the minimum of 13" charge out of the portal is dangerous. A minimum charge of 19" puts most of the board under charge range assuming you've placed 2 portals appropriately.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Warriors/Trueborn, as the primary shooting infantry, don't benefit as much from a WWP. But a couple squads with transports can support your Wyches, Talos/Cronos, and beasts as they tear apart anything that gets too close to the portal. A couple gunboats can shoot down runners and stragglers, while hemming in the enemy. A single warrior gunboat takes the responsibility of objective capping off wracks and wyches, letting them do what they do best - WWP-assisted murder!

Honestly, I would just like you to post a list. Anything with 5 or less vehicles on the board to start, and most high end competitive lists will down those transports in the first turn. What will your warriors/trueborn be supporting if they have to walk across the battlefield to get there? Taking 2 vehicles for WWP deployment, even if they are downed, I am still placing portals 18" closer to the enemy than before (this would be worst case scenario). My warrior transports getting shot down is not only a ~60 pt hit each time, but also makes that unit completely inneffective the rest of the battle. I have had raiders/venoms blown out from under my warriors before, and they barely contribute to the rest of the battle taking place on the other side of the board. The difference is in those lists I usually have 3/4 raiders and 4/5 venoms, meaning that the majority of my force is still getting there.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Ok, so now I get some reasons from you. Sorry you have to get angry and frustrated to come up with them.

So, we're talking about competitive environments? Competitive environments have skilled players, yes? The book hasn't been out a year. It's not the most popular competitive codex, not even close to Marine codices. There's a steep learning curve too, as there always was. Of course people are going to take awhile. Having been to several tournaments, match-ups count for a LOT. Listen to the guy who made "leafblower" talk about its reliance on good match-ups and dumb opponents. Venom spam and darklight spam are both mech lists. They're both principled around the same idea - lots of firepower. But are they optimal? Are other builds possible? Perhaps.

Judging by your simple rhetorical questions I would assume that you are getting upset. I've played previous DE, and the current learning curve is much easier then the old book, at least for me. I have played 40k for 10+ years, so I have a fair amount of experience with every army (Orks, SMs, Eldar, CSM, Daemons, GKs and Witchhunters). I completely understand other lists are possible, hence this thread concerning WWP. Since there are no competitive lists concerning WWP, I cannot see how you may claim one direction or the other, at least not without stating evidence (scenarios, pts cost, opponent interaction, etc. which I have clearly supplied). There is no way I could possibly be pidgeonholing myself into this list, as there is no current "best way to run WWP", but there is also no way for you to assume that vehicles would make this list more optimal/successful, nor less successful.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

So Harlequins are bad, and I'm bad for using them? same points as an incubi for a model with a 5+ invuln, rending, the ability to move and assault through cover uninhibited, 2 more attacks, and the option of a shadowseer is clearly bad.

Haha, I don't have time to dig up all the battle-reports, posts, etc. that have gone over this again and again, but yes, they're bad. Ask any DE or Eldar player and they will tell you the same. They have the "potential" to do well vs. certain lists, but as an all-comers choice, there are simply better options. Rending is nothing to count on, they are only St3, they do not benefit from Power from Pain, they cannot buy a dedicated transport. In a WWP are they better than incubi? Ofcourse. But are beasts better and hellion swarms supported by baron better than harlequines in a WWP list? Definitely, due to their better movement/charge ranges and their cheaper point cost. The shadowseer's main benefit, being able to cloak the unit, does nothing when coming out of a WWP in the midst of your opponents firing line. The 12" move/12" charge that both hellions and beasts have to make it into combat to avoid getting shot is much more beneficial. I am sorry, but harlequins are just inferior.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Your idea of "competitive" seems to be synonymous with "someone else's list from a tournament." Is this correct? How many craftworld eldar players do you see at tournaments anyway?

It doesn't have to be, but yes, it is a good indicator of the success of certain builds. You cannot tell me you haven't gone to tournaments and seen the same lists topping the ranks every single time, there's a reason they're there. It doesn't mean that some wonky builds won't occasional top the charts, but they are much more opponent dependent. I have seen a craftworld army make it into the top 10 every tournament I have attended or seen listed. Recently a lot have jumped to DE because the book is simply better, but my friend plays Eldar (with bits of my old army) and has recently come in 2nd, 4th, and 5th in local tournaments as well as placed 8th in the last GT.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Frag missiles are not, you're right... but you said no/minimal vehicles. So I put two kraks into your Razorwing, it dies, and... What do I do the rest of the game? Oh, right. Hit as many things as possible with every volley. I wish assault cannons did "minimal damage versus troops". I wish those autocannons wouldn't tear those pain engines to pieces. But there are no vehicles to stop them from shooting them, feeding them sacrificial units and shooting them after single player turn combats and choking the WWP. You seem to value marines and guard much more highly than your own army - yet do you really think that they don't have ways to stop you from leaving midfield on foot? And how do you get cover against a flamestorm cannon? Both weapons have S6, so there goes your FnP.

Wow, i Really question whether you have run WWPs at all. The several times I have already attempted running these lists, my units have had no problems finding a unit to assault when they arrive. ROFL, it is simply amazing that you're having issues "choking" up your WWPs. Maybe its because your having warriors come out who sit and shoot, I have no clue. But lets look at some of these weapons...

Assault cannon: 4 shots, 2.6 hits, 2.22 wound, 1.11 avoided by FnP. So 1 warrior, hellion, wych dead... I would hardly consider that threatening. Even twin linked your looking at maybe 2 warriors dead. With 3 of them, your looking at around 4/5 dead, most likely not even a full squad.

Autocannons (lets just assume 6): 12 shots, 8 hit, 6.67 wound, 3.33 wound. Still not a full squad dead in one turn of shooting, this is assuming no cover saves are taken.

Now both of these assume that the squad has already received a pain token. I assume that they will be destroying at least one unit when they enter the board (unless the opponent is brilliant and deploys everything in the far table corners, though even then I would simply move both portals towards one side and divide and conquer). So over the course of 2/3 turns they may kill 1/2 squads. On the other hand they have a high probability of downing 5/6 skimmers in that same period of time, totaling around 360/400 pts. Hmmm, 1 squad of wyches at 160 pts, or skimmers, I'd take wyches, especially since the rest of my army is still around 100% effectiveness. Without their transports, everything else is at much less then 100%.

Now I admit, AT weapons are a serious threat to Talos, but if your opponent is shooting transports instead of the Talos barreling into his tank line, he is simply a fool, there is no other explanation. There are few things more threatening than a Talos in combat. Opponents will do everything to down them regardless of what else is on the field. If you haven't experienced this then I assume that your opponents are not picking target priorities correctly, or you haven't ran them.

Also, its not like Baal predators are found in every list, especially tournament lists, and its not like there will be 3 of them. I will have 2 portals to enter from, and sufficient anti-tank/mobility to destroy one of them before it even has the opportunity to flame my units.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I don't care what others did. If you want to be spoon fed lists, there's a section marked accordingly. If you want general advice and discussion, here you are.

There is a difference between "tactics" and "general advice" which I believe you are missing. We are currently in the tactics forum, not the general forum. Tactics revolve around discussing past scenarios, specific examples, unit composition, army composition, etc. You have provided NONE of this (maybe a little bit on army composition, but with no real insight to build or strategy). Do not lecture me, or others, who have posted here on providing tactical responses. We all have, but have you?

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

So, you want general advice. You're also not experienced at using reserves.

Um, that was an intro, with some general background.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

"Will it work? Have you tried it? Have you seen it work? What units worked great? What armies is it good/bad against? etc."

These are not general questions, they are very specific. To which others have provided specific answers to. I was never interested in "general advice". Nowhere do I state, "be vague, or only suggest possibilities".

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Yes, if it works cohesively and you can use it successfully. Yes. You obviously care about "suggesting units that have worked in your personal rounded DE lists" which is ALL OF THEM regardless of how much infantry or mech is there. Do you like to play Rock/Paper/Scissors? I don't, it's boring and skill-less. Are there bad match-ups? Obviously. In general, I find going primarily, almost completely webway makes you good against horde and assault armies. Mech is slightly tilted toward other mech. Again, it's up to what else you take.

Haha, wow. I was directing that specifically at you. I want to see one of your rounded lists, that you have had success with. Thats all. If you can't understand that, then I don't know what else to say. Also, you can't play rock/paper/scissors this is a tournament, you don't know your opponents, I didn't ask what list I should take to beat X. Obviously, there will be bad match-ups, and thank you for stating its success vs. horde/assault armies and weakness against mech. Besides being obvious, it is the only question I had originally posted that you answered. There are also many scissor/rock/paper armies which require a lot of finesse to play, maybe not in the point and click space marine armies, but definitely in other armies.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

And of course they're not relevant to YOUR themed WWP army. But my heavily skewed towards WWP methodology, rather than one list to rule them all, is relevant to any tournament WWP, just as everyone else's are.

The WWP army is not a themed army, it is a tactic available to Dark Eldar players. Maximizing the use of WWPs is also not theme related, it is including units which will utilize a piece of wargear you have invested points, transports and deployment in. I never once asked for a specific list that is perfect at using this tactic, just for unit suggestions, build suggestions, tactical suggestions, and what to look out for. The only thing you have provided in your posts is unit suggestions, and never any specific indications or supporting references, just, "you should think about taking these"

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Here's information to help you. And you're SO right, the typical warrior blasterborn IS predictable and boring. You bring scissor every time, so you table paper, rock owns you, and scissors is an exercise in frustration. You're winning somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the time, are you having fun?

Besides the lack of information you have provided, I do agree that a blaster born list is boring as hell. It is where I started before wych cult and finally my WWP experimentation. It was very successful, but yes, predictable. It was still a challenge to play, and a good build for anyone first starting with DE. I also think you fail to realize that an optimized list or min/max is not a "scissor", "cookie-cutter" maybe. An optimized list is able to take on all-comers. Blasterborn lists are great against ALL lists. There is a reason DashOfPepper has won every GT tournament (at least win rate) that he has taken them to. You would definitely not lose 1/2 or 1/3 of the time with the list he uses, unless you play them incorrectly. Scissors lists are lists which focus on defeating one opponent/build, for example, a list that only takes AT. A full WWP list is not a scissor list, it has AT, anti-troop, anti-elite, etc. I think your definitions of tactics vs. general advice and optimized lists vs. "scissor" lists are blurred. They are all completely different things.

For what it is worth,

If memory serves correctly, both winning lists at Wargamescon, 2nd largest con next to Adepticon, Wych cult lists won best overall in the championship and consolidation or RTT brackets.

I beleive the RTT bracket player used a WWP.

I'll have to look it up, but he had the baron, beasts, 3 or 4 units of wyches, a pair of raiders. Maybe ravagers, I'll have to go hunting.

So anyway, Kabal lists are not the most dominant in terms of success rate in the larger GT/RTT scene.

I am not huge wych cult fan, but I see the use of it and will be building one of my own for fun and versatility.

My thoughts on a competitive WWP list

2 WWP min
take naked Haemiis
Wyches and wracks

a big unit of Grotes, 7 or 8,

Scourges & Hellions or Reavers

Talos, take 3.

Not a proper list, but a buddy of mine and I have been experimenting on a WWP list and those more more or less what he has in it.

3 portals delivered via 3 man wrack and haemaii

next turn opponents stuff starts dying. No beastmasters, just a lot of beat sticks coming out of a portal with jump troops to move a take out armor & blocking units.

Thats about all I have.

GAR wrote:

So anyway, Kabal lists are not the most dominant in terms of success rate in the larger GT/RTT scene.

Ah, cool. I haven't seen the results from that tourney yet. If you could find both lists that would be awesome. I always like analyzing how competitive players built their lists.

GAR wrote:

I am not huge wych cult fan, but I see the use of it and will be building one of my own for fun and versatility.

Yea, definitely have one that I run occasionally at the moment as well. I am not the biggest fan either, as I feel it tends to lack some punch compared to my other lists, but its fun to play occasionally. I have to say they have done a fantastic job with the book, most builds are competitive if built right.

GAR wrote:

My thoughts on a competitive WWP list

2 WWP min
take naked Haemiis
Wyches and wracks

a big unit of Grotes, 7 or 8,

Scourges & Hellions or Reavers

Talos, take 3.

I've been hesitant to try Grotes, but this is definitely one build where they have more opportunities to shine. Who would you have accompany them?

Definitely like hellions and reavers as well. I can see where wyches are useful, but AS useful as beasts? Beasts are pretty resilient and, in my experience, do more damage in the end. Wyches are good for tying things up, but without a transport to spear them towards the big nasty enemy unit I fear they may get bogged down while it rampages about.

wracks are good too, I am definitely still contemplating betwen wracks/warriors for WWP escort.

About the Talos, I do like the idea of having 3. I included the razorwing simply because it has been stomping units on the turn it arrives in all my past games, plus adds a little AT. But I guess another Talos provides more similar targets (more likely to get through) and is great at wrecking vehicles. I'll probably playtest both.

GAR wrote:

Not a proper list, but a buddy of mine and I have been experimenting on a WWP list and those more more or less what he has in it.

3 portals delivered via 3 man wrack and haemaii

next turn opponents stuff starts dying. No beastmasters, just a lot of beat sticks coming out of a portal with jump troops to move a take out armor & blocking units.

Yea, I like the build idea. I would always take 2 portals, but does he find that 3 really help? It just seems like a lot of points (another 200 or so) for one more entry. 2 do a pretty good job of covering the field:


Red = minimum range (19") Dark Red = maximum range (24")

GAR wrote:

Thats about all I have.

Thanks! , def got me thinking about grotes now...

1st things first.

From what I remember, they guy from "Delusions of Granduer" won the RTT or got sick. BOLS is blocked at work so I can't go follow up. But I remember looking at it and thinking it was not that comepetive looking. Shows how much I know. LOL.

The unit of Grots are run with Urien. Add the str upgrade and they become stupid strong and resilient and will have 3 pain tokens to start.

Wyches, not infantry killers, but are tank hunters. Give them all haywire and send them off to the races. With fleet they keep armor moving. And heaven help you if the IG jump out to try and shoot.

Wracks are better in WWP list, in my Opinion. The venom is cheap and gives good AI firepower. Plus if it dies, no big deal.

The grots take out whatever is in front of them. If there is a big nasty unit, shoot it first, preferably with Liquifier guns, then assault it.

hellions and scourges provide the firepower to soften up units or deal with armor. Scourges can pump out a ton of poison naked, and they can have haywire grenades. True preference is to shoot, but Haywire don't hurt.

My buddy is using reavers and likes to shoot out of portal and do drive by attacks then shoot something with heat lances. I think he runs 2 units of 6. I haven't talked to him in a while so I 'm not sure if he has changed it up or not.

3 WWP give you a lot of options, and make it near impossible to block. maybe overkill maybe not, but you put one in the middle, then one on each flank about 12-16 inches from the center portal. Now everythng is in range when the grots and wyches come in.

I think 2 or 3 just alters your planning a little bit. Playstyle plays a big role in which is best for you.

More later once I have talked to my buddy.

GreySeerZ, you need to calm down. Really. Even if anyone was flaming you, this is the internet. Relax.

I'm not going to give you a list. I know you want it. I know that's all you want, and nothing more. Why not, then? First of all, you don't trust anyone here anyway. DashOfPepper isn't the best at all - I'm not, nobody here is, but neither is he. Nor are you ready. If you want to compete, you need to know how to make the list yourself, so you can playtest and fine tune it. Even if I gave you an RTT-succesful WWP list, you'd lose with it anyway, and I'd get blamed for handing the keys to a Mercedez-Benz to a 16 year old, who may be a good driver, but lacks necessary experience.

When you can relax, I'll be happy to help you some more. But right now, you're out of control.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

GreySeerZ, you need to calm down. Really. Even if anyone was flaming you, this is the internet. Relax.

I'm not going to give you a list. I know you want it. I know that's all you want, and nothing more. Why not, then? First of all, you don't trust anyone here anyway. DashOfPepper isn't the best at all - I'm not, nobody here is, but neither is he. Nor are you ready. If you want to compete, you need to know how to make the list yourself, so you can playtest and fine tune it. Even if I gave you an RTT-succesful WWP list, you'd lose with it anyway, and I'd get blamed for handing the keys to a Mercedez-Benz to a 16 year old, who may be a good driver, but lacks necessary experience.

When you can relax, I'll be happy to help you some more. But right now, you're out of control.

Rofl, you are delusional. If you can't offer any real tactical advice, and can't handle supporting your ideas or voicing any reasons to deny mine, please do not to respond to any of my posts or threads in the future. I will not miss you at all. I am not a noob or a child when it comes to Warhammer 40k and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude towards me. As for not trusting anyone else. I have listened to, and discussed units/tactics/builds/lists with every member of this forum that I have had the pleasure to converse with, so I have no clue where this is coming from...

I completely agree that experience and play-testing is what makes strong lists. I also believe that there are no universal lists that are good in any one persons hands. Seeing other lists does open up new pathways that you might have not noticed before, or increases insight into the way your army could be altered. From you I get "Don't show this man anything, he will just use it as is, and never think on his own", which is ridiculous, especially said to a long-time well experience competitive player.

Yes I have taken issue with what you've said, which I should have avoided. But you have offered nothing of value to my thread, and are filling it with empty posts. Sure I want lists, I want unit builds, I want experience, I want anything that can assist me in building my own list. The list I posted above was built completely by me, based on my knowledge of the codex, the game system, experience and other lists players have posted. I thought posting on these "Tactical" forums would be a great way to get more information and expand my knowledge base concerning WWP armies, and so far everyone has been a great help. You, on the other hand, have offered me nothing. When confronted as to the validity of the several claims you've made, you have provided nothing to support your claims.

Saying some build is the best, but then not supporting it, or posting it, is the same as saying nothing to begin with. I'd rather have you post nothing. I just think its hilarious that you'd assume that I would take the list, duplicate it, and attempt to run it, and expect it to do well. Now, if its that you can't handle supported criticisms and critiques of your own personal list, I can understand that, and if it is the case, just say so and I"ll stop bringing it up. You've just stated that certain units would work well, and then don't provide any legs for those units to stand on, it just smacks of elitist inexperience...

So please, unless you have supporting information, or a list to contribute to this discussion to support your claims, please stop posting in this thread. If not, I will ask a mod to step in and remove both your and my posts, as they are just getting in the way.

GAR wrote:

From what I remember, they guy from "Delusions of Granduer" won the RTT or got sick. BOLS is blocked at work so I can't go follow up. But I remember looking at it and thinking it was not that comepetive looking. Shows how much I know. LOL.

Yea, happens sometimes. Really it probably came down to his opponents more-so than how much you know. At larger events there is a better chance of facing less experienced opponents then at some of the smaller ones. I know I have played in events where the first 2/3 rounds were ridiculously easy before getting stoned to death in the final round/2.

GAR wrote:

The unit of Grots are run with Urien. Add the str upgrade and they become stupid strong and resilient and will have 3 pain tokens to start.

Ah, cool, so Coven HQ, Urien + 3 haemis. I guess I always looked for Baron as he made hellions much better and gave the +1 to first turn, which shouldn't be counted on, but does increase the chance of a good first turn WWP deployment.

GAR wrote:

Wyches, not infantry killers, but are tank hunters. Give them all haywire and send them off to the races. With fleet they keep armor moving. And heaven help you if the IG jump out to try and shoot.

Very good reasons to run wyches, as my current list lacks AT capabilities. Throwing a unit/2 in probably wouldn't hurt.

GAR wrote:

Wracks are better in WWP list, in my Opinion. The venom is cheap and gives good AI firepower. Plus if it dies, no big deal.

Yea, I'll probably end up leaning that way. I do see warriors contributing more, but in the end, 3 wracks is cheaper and still scoring. Venoms by themselves with dual SCs are also pretty sick.

GAR wrote:

The grots take out whatever is in front of them. If there is a big nasty unit, shoot it first, preferably with Liquifier guns, then assault it.

hellions and scourges provide the firepower to soften up units or deal with armor. Scourges can pump out a ton of poison naked, and they can have haywire grenades. True preference is to shoot, but Haywire don't hurt.

Scourges were another option I've considered. In most games I feel they just die to easily. Hellions could take baron to increase their chances of survival (stealth). And are also no slouches in CC. They are a reliable source of haywire though, and will demolish most infantry. I would most likely drop a beast unit to take them, so 1 beast, 1 reaver, 1 scourge and 1 hellion. Pretty well rounded, can send units to where they are needed most.

GAR wrote:

My buddy is using reavers and likes to shoot out of portal and do drive by attacks then shoot something with heat lances. I think he runs 2 units of 6. I haven't talked to him in a while so I 'm not sure if he has changed it up or not.

Yea, I would most likely run one unit of 9. I've tried 6, and find that they usually die to one volley. With 9 I can keep my 3 heat lances alive (hopefully).

GAR wrote:

3 WWP give you a lot of options, and make it near impossible to block. maybe overkill maybe not, but you put one in the middle, then one on each flank about 12-16 inches from the center portal. Now everythng is in range when the grots and wyches come in.

I think 2 or 3 just alters your planning a little bit. Playstyle plays a big role in which is best for you.

More later once I have talked to my buddy.

I'm playing a game today, so I'm gonna give the 3 WWP wracks in venoms a shot with my non-grot list. I'll post how it does. And yea, definitely any other insight would be appreciated

I have no clue why you said you were so afraid of reserving. I still have no clue why you don't think feeling obligated to running 0 vehicles is a good idea, and harlequins are bad. Also, why don't you think I've given any tactical advice? I pointed out exactly where it is.

If you're angry because you're frustrated... You have no reason to blame me. I pointed out exactly where YOU claimed to be inexperienced. I don't understand why I need to point out evidence and reasoning behind assertions in the same post - obviously I wouldn't give dumb advice I hadn't both reasoned through and tried against a worthy opponent - that's careless and malicious.

I was condescending, and while it's perplexing to see someone assert two different opinions of their experience, being condescending while you're fuming was a dumb idea. Since the original post was obviously a fluke, and I was stupid enough to incite you further, here is my apology:

HQ 190

2 Haemonculi
Webway Portals
Liquifiers
190

Troops 1020

5 Wracks
Liquifier
Raider
120

5 Wracks
Liquifier
Raider
120

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

FA 432

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

HS 350

Ravager
Night Shield
115

Ravager
Night Shield
115

Talos
TL Heat Lance
Chain Flails
120

The most successful iteration. No, it's not perfect, nothing is. Yes, other units will work too, including harlequins. This is best suited to the meta I played it in, shortly before GK came out. I have no reason to believe that will drastically change its performance, having used it to playtest a very good player's new GK list, as well as a mech DE list.

So, 4 vehicles, which all start out of the portal (duh.) Wracks escort haemonculi, who drop the portal deployment + 12 + 2.99 + pivot inches in. Furious charge means the wracks re-roll to wound combat squads, 2 liquifiers mean that you may not even need to go that far, just hug cover.

Ravagers provide fire lanes and supporting fire to open tanks in preparation for the WPP crew. They are absolutely necessary.

Wyches tarpit, using shardnet placement and judicious multi-assaults to hold things still. I originally ran haywires and found them wasteful more often than not, with all the AT and the short distance from a midfield WWP

Beasts come in and hammer what is on the wych-anvil. In a pinch, stunned vehicles get autohit by the razorwing flocks and destroyed.

The Talos is a panic button. Troublesome tank? Heat lance. Stunned tank, beasts elsewhere? 2d6 attacks, 7+2d6 to pen. Troublesome squad? 2d6 S7 PW attacks.

It's not your list, it's mine, so make it yours. You know the army in and out? You know how it works before I commented. Playtest, adjust as needed. Oh, and sorry. Please don't get so worked up, next time.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I have no clue why you said you were so afraid of reserving. I still have no clue why you don't think feeling obligated to running 0 vehicles is a good idea, and harlequins are bad. Also, why don't you think I've given any tactical advice? I pointed out exactly where it is.

If you're angry because you're frustrated... You have no reason to blame me. I pointed out exactly where YOU claimed to be inexperienced. I don't understand why I need to point out evidence and reasoning behind assertions in the same post - obviously I wouldn't give dumb advice I hadn't both reasoned through and tried against a worthy opponent - that's careless and malicious.

I totally understand what your saying, but I just feel as if your not actually reading my posts. I clearly stated, in the past 3 posts, that I am not inexperienced, that I have reserved many times, even with Dark Eldar, it is more my concern creating a build that is hinged on reserving. Its not like I could choose not to and run all 4 units of wyches across the board. Competitive armies would simply blow them to pieces. Its that in order for them to reach the enemy I have to roll reserves, and roll them well. As I've stated many times, winning, especially competitively, is hinged on minimizing randomness either through tactics or list builds. This build tends to have A LOT of randomness. I could not get half my army until 4th turn. By then anything that started on the table, or had already come out, is most likely dead and units are simply waiting to blow the rest of my units away.

Regular DE lists reserving run the same risk. But in a shooting army you are much more likely to cause damage when you initially arrive. WWP combat units, wyches especially, will most likely have to wait a turn prior to reaching combat. That one turn, without support, could easily spell death for the unit.

Nowhere did I say I was inexperienced reserving, inexperienced playing WWP competitively, yes, but everyone is. The one army that GAR pointed to was the first ranked WWP list I have even heard of. I am not frustrated, I have only play-tested my original WWP list (with success I might add) and was looking for supported criticism/experience. That was where my main issue with your posts lied. You said vehicles, harlequins, etc. were good, but then would not answer any of the questions I posted to you, as in, what build would you support them with? What units would you start on the table? What units would you have come out of the portal? How are you planning to deal with lists that can destroy 5/6 armor 10/11 vehicles in one turn? I didn't even require an army list from you, just simply answers to these questions, which you just seemed reluctant to give me, so then I rudely demanded a list (which was inappropriate though it did manage to coax one out of you, evil Dark Eldar we are ).

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I was condescending, and while it's perplexing to see someone assert two different opinions of their experience, being condescending while you're fuming was a dumb idea. Since the original post was obviously a fluke, and I was stupid enough to incite you further, here is my apology:

Thank you! All I wanted was some of your tactical insight, not a general splattering of what units to possibly try out with minimal support of their purpose/form/function. If you don't mind I have some questions about your list .

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

HQ 190

2 Haemonculi
Webway Portals
Liquifiers
190

Troops 1020

5 Wracks
Liquifier
Raider
120

5 Wracks
Liquifier
Raider
120

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

FA 432

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

HS 350

Ravager
Night Shield
115

Ravager
Night Shield
115

Talos
TL Heat Lance
Chain Flails
120

The most successful iteration. No, it's not perfect, nothing is. Yes, other units will work too, including harlequins. This is best suited to the meta I played it in, shortly before GK came out. I have no reason to believe that will drastically change its performance, having used it to playtest a very good player's new GK list, as well as a mech DE list.

So, 4 vehicles, which all start out of the portal (duh.) Wracks escort haemonculi, who drop the portal deployment + 12 + 2.99 + pivot inches in. Furious charge means the wracks re-roll to wound combat squads, 2 liquifiers mean that you may not even need to go that far, just hug cover.

I am confused. I know that vehicles can't use the portal. So I am assuming that you meant start out on the field? So that gives you 4 vehicles: 2 transports and 2 ravagers. I am assuming that your two raiders will speed forward for WWP deployment and that your ravagers will hang back to fire. Some questions:

What is your plan for drop-podding SW melta squads? SW can (and will) take 2/3 drop podding melta squads, which will easily land within 6" of each ravager on the first turn. 5 combi-melta shots (even without double pen rolls because of night shields) should have no issue destroying both ravagers on the first turn, basically eliminating your ranged firepower. You are now left with 2 dark lance platforms in the form of raiders, most space wolf armies will also be fielding 3 long fang missile launcher squads, which should be more then sufficient (even with cover) at taking both of those out. Assuming you got first turn, you at least deployed your WWPs, assuming you didn't, your now stuck with two portals in back field, with no transports and an entire board of missile/razorback plas/las death to walk through. It is sometimes hard to think about these things without experiencing it, but I have definitely experienced this. SWs are one of the hardest matchups for DE to face, and I have proxied it countless times against my opponents to prepare for competitive tournaments.

Likewise, there are several armies that can produce this amount of AT firepower. Imperial Guard have plenty of ranged options that easily pen armor 10. Regular space marine armies can do the same, especially drop-pod lists or the devastating 9x typhoon landspeeder shooting gallery (a list I've won several local tournaments with). Even Eldar, with 3x scatter laser war walkers, have a high probability of disabling/destroying these vehicles first turn. Raider/Venom spam lists succeed because even with 4/5 vehicles dead there are still 4/5 left rushing towards enemy lines. Here you start the table with only 4 vehicles. What if your reserve rolls fail the second turn and nothing comes out. A full second turn of shooting and your vehicles are gone guaranteed. Sure you may have destroyed 1/2 razorbacks (in lists that can run 5/6) but ravagers are only capable of downing 1/2 tanks a turn.

At this point you effectively have 0 anti-tank besides beasts and the Talos. Talos will easily die, drawing all the firepower that has recently destroyed your vehicles, and beasts can be tied up or thinned out. A single dreadnought could tie up your wyches indefinitely (without haywire grenades). With so few vehicles, your AT will be reduced by the time your wyches arrive and your wyches will be unable to harm anything with armor.

I can only assume that you haven't faced lists like this, which may change your opinion on your WWP force. I play in a very competitive gaming league (with a GT coming up next month). My personal group of friends within the league have won local tournaments and placed highly in local GTs (even doing well in the Nova Open). They know the competitive lists, and play them well. I am not trying to insult you in any way shape or form, but this list would simply fold to about half of them.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Ravagers provide fire lanes and supporting fire to open tanks in preparation for the WPP crew. They are absolutely necessary.

Wyches tarpit, using shardnet placement and judicious multi-assaults to hold things still. I originally ran haywires and found them wasteful more often than not, with all the AT and the short distance from a midfield WWP

Again, you will find that most shooting lists will simply hug table edges and corners against a WWP list. Only inexperienced players will rush the portal in hopes of surrounding it or destroying units that come out. Against a very CC oriented army, your list would do well. Against a shooting/mech army (current competitive meta), I would simply destroy units as they deployed while backing up and moving away.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Beasts come in and hammer what is on the wych-anvil. In a pinch, stunned vehicles get autohit by the razorwing flocks and destroyed.

The Talos is a panic button. Troublesome tank? Heat lance. Stunned tank, beasts elsewhere? 2d6 attacks, 7+2d6 to pen. Troublesome squad? 2d6 S7 PW attacks.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Talos gets d6 attacks. Chain-flails allow it to roll 2d6 and PICK the highest. An extra CC weapon gives it +1 attack. At most you will have 7 attacks, statistically more around 5/6. I do agree on the heat lance though, but again, without multiple talos targets, it will easily be primary AT target, and destroyed.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

It's not your list, it's mine, so make it yours. You know the army in and out? You know how it works before I commented. Playtest, adjust as needed. Oh, and sorry. Please don't get so worked up, next time.

And I won't, I'm here to help you out as much as you help me. I think with some changes you could have a very competitive list. As it is I personally believe it will fail against half of tournament ready competitive lists. Playing GK is important, but I wouldn't consider them the most powerful army out there. Most widely played, yes, most powerful, definitely not. SWs, BAs, and in some cases, vanilla SMs can offer better lists. However, if you can make it work, all the more power to you. Let me know how it fares in any competitive tournament, I would be interested to know, and thanks for giving me some insight to your thinking (I really do appreciate it) .

Vanilla Marines making better lists than Grey Knights...maybe if the Grey Knight player is really drunk

I actually support Preacher with starting multiple vehicles on the field (in my list I start 4). I will say, I do include Baron Sathypants because 1st turn is important to DE in general and *very* important to DE in WWP.

I don't really fear drop pods. I don't bring lances to hurt Drop Pod troops - my WWP guys can handle drop pod troops. The Ravager I run is there to silence/slow down my enemy's ranged armored firepower. By the time the Pods drop my Ravager has hopefully already done its work. (knock on wood)

Gunline...*sigh* Gunline is where portal lists face some adventures. It's actually why I don't do WWP at tournaments - there's too much risk involved. If I always get first turn I feel confident, but if I don't I'm pretty likely to get steamrolled. (again - Sathypants). I haven't figured out a good solution to that one yet.

Pods aren't too bad though - you can usually deal with the limited gunline supporting pods and if it's all pods you can just deploy from your own table edge and eat their face just fine.

I don't have privileged access to the same environment as GreySeerZ on a regular basis, but I do test things against a variety of lists.

Vulkan is 10 times scarier than anything GK have. Vulkan takes the best things in that book (C:SM) and makes them better.

Drop Pods are a PAIN. Probably the worst match-up. Unlike Daemons, who have poor shooting and low mobility after the initial Deep Strike, or assaulty Deathwing who can't make enough Storm Shield saves, Drop Pod SW can shoot back, and sometimes Thunderwolves.

Ravagers starting in area terrain at least prevent combi-meltas from getting too close. Placement is tricky, you want to strand whoever is dealing with the ravagers somewhere bad. Going flat-out is an option if you have nothing to shoot at. I like the night shields rather than 2 more khymerae because they really screw up podding/DS melta, and force things closer to the ravagers (and thus the portal)

Agains gunlines the ravagers are stupidly good. The portals are already about 28-9 inches into the board in pitched battle, placed overlapping like in the picture. Dawn of War lets me place one portal anywhere I want Turn 1, so the second one overlaps behind it and a bit to the left or right. Spearhead is best, obviously. But you're right, the distance is usually small even if I'm fighting a wall of armor on their board edge, and the Night shields force things closer.

Mech-meta makes Haywires so much better. I fought crisis spam, DOA, orks, SW razorspam (not the HB version) and leafblower, MOSTLY. If/when I rebuild this list, having sold the wyches and proxy'd the beasts, I will likely try modifying that factor.

As a panic button, chain flails prevent the Talos from getting lazy. D6 attacks is pretty bad for something that big. Does it bother you a lot?

Consider a combination of these two ideas:

Someone else suggested 4 blaster trueborn hopping out of the WWP. Ditch the Talos, and the wracks, and add 2 khymerae back in. With the rest of the extra points, add 2x4 Trueborn with blasters in the portal deployment raiders. I'd have to test this.

Put haywires back on, take off shardnets

I was going to build some BA and venture outside the safe world of mobile shooty xenos, or build my Tau again, once I sold some fantasy junk.

Maybe I should just rebuild this list, with the trueborn instead of the Talos? I own all the models, except the wyches, and I never owned the beasts but now I have the razorwings converted, I can use my blasterborn this time, and I can buy 2 boxes of direwolves or chaos hounds. Honestly, I should test it out again if I'm going to be here. Talos is gone oh well.

I still don't like the haywires, but I can see them working better... Should I build this when I get $$$ ?

Thor665 wrote:

Vanilla Marines making better lists than Grey Knights...maybe if the Grey Knight player is really drunk

Well, considering 80% of GK players are straight up horrible, and most SM players that stuck with vanilla have mastered their lists by now, I'd feel more confident in playing a GK player, then a player with a strong vanilla list. But that may just be me and my local meta. Most GK players take strong lists but still don't know how to play them right.

Thor665 wrote:

I actually support Preacher with starting multiple vehicles on the field (in my list I start 4). I will say, I do include Baron Sathypants because 1st turn is important to DE in general and *very* important to DE in WWP.

Yea, I would consider Baron 100% necessary in a WWP list. Dictating deployment and getting those portals down is crucial. I still don't know how I feel about 4 vehicles. They are SO easy to destroy. Like yea, 4 armor 12 chimeras, not feeling too worried, 4 armor 10/11 vehicles. Pretty much anything can destroy them.

Thor665 wrote:

I don't really fear drop pods. I don't bring lances to hurt Drop Pod troops - my WWP guys can handle drop pod troops. The Ravager I run is there to silence/slow down my enemy's ranged armored firepower. By the time the Pods drop my Ravager has hopefully already done its work. (knock on wood)

Gunline...*sigh* Gunline is where portal lists face some adventures. It's actually why I don't do WWP at tournaments - there's too much risk involved. If I always get first turn I feel confident, but if I don't I'm pretty likely to get steamrolled. (again - Sathypants). I haven't figured out a good solution to that one yet.

Yea, definitely agree with you there. I have seen some really good drop pod lists though. And when half auto arrive first turn, they are pretty much guaranteed to get those kills, especially if you don't win first go. You won't feel the sting, until you face one, I have, and its bad. 3 tanks down from drop pods alone first 2 turns, not to mention the gun line ripping the rest asunder. With the current meta being parking lots and medium st high volume gun-lines I just don't see how having such a small number of vehicles on the table to start is going to work, unless your really lucky with your FF saves/ cover. Just curious, but what opponents do you regularly face? Its always interesting to find out, and gives a little more insight as to where your coming from .

Thor665 wrote:

Pods aren't too bad though - you can usually deal with the limited gunline supporting pods and if it's all pods you can just deploy from your own table edge and eat their face just fine.

Yea, all pods is not too much of a concern, especially for DE, but some pods are good against a lot of other lists (especially at taking out vindicators, land raiders, etc.). I'd say there is a fairly good chance you will run into at least 1 some-pod list in a tournament (if your like everyone else and only face space marines ). If so it would really hurt a 4 vehicle start, especially if 2 of them have already distanced themselves from the other 2 to deploy portals. Now you either have to abandon your portals and run back to remove these melta-toting marines, or let them down your ravagers, and then run around in your back field, both don't sound too exciting.

I feel WWP lists are strongest when everything in the list is in a position to be supported by things coming out of the portals. Ravagers are best at sitting back and blasting from the corners. Too many armies have scouts/deep strikers that could safely land, remove the threat, and fear little retribution in return. Razorwings on the other hand are fair game, though I'm still considering tri-talos, as they will most likely be held in reserve anyway (meaning that they might not even be a target when those scouts/deep strikers arrive) and that 99% of their lethlity is felt in the firs tturn they arrive, meaning if they're downed after they've at least unloaded everything they have to offer.

Vulkan anyone?

As scary as Psiflemen are, low model count means they can be torrented. A couple Ironclad or MMHF dreads in a vulcan list, and with drop pods is TERRIFYING.

Off-topic, but Vulkan He'stan is probably the best Marine HQ in any book, except maybe a basic Marine, Mephiston, Belial, or N'jal

Razorwings are better than Ravagers why? Do you need more AI help? They're just as fragile, too. More costly as well.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I don't have privileged access to the same environment as GreySeerZ on a regular basis, but I do test things against a variety of lists.

Vulkan is 10 times scarier than anything GK have. Vulkan takes the best things in that book (C:SM) and makes them better.

Drop Pods are a PAIN. Probably the worst match-up. Unlike Daemons, who have poor shooting and low mobility after the initial Deep Strike, or assaulty Deathwing who can't make enough Storm Shield saves, Drop Pod SW can shoot back, and sometimes Thunderwolves.

Ravagers starting in area terrain at least prevent combi-meltas from getting too close. Placement is tricky, you want to strand whoever is dealing with the ravagers somewhere bad. Going flat-out is an option if you have nothing to shoot at. I like the night shields rather than 2 more khymerae because they really screw up podding/DS melta, and force things closer to the ravagers (and thus the portal)

Agains gunlines the ravagers are stupidly good. The portals are already about 28-9 inches into the board in pitched battle, placed overlapping like in the picture. Dawn of War lets me place one portal anywhere I want Turn 1, so the second one overlaps behind it and a bit to the left or right. Spearhead is best, obviously. But you're right, the distance is usually small even if I'm fighting a wall of armor on their board edge, and the Night shields force things closer.

Mech-meta makes Haywires so much better. I fought crisis spam, DOA, orks, SW razorspam (not the HB version) and leafblower, MOSTLY. If/when I rebuild this list, having sold the wyches and proxy'd the beasts, I will likely try modifying that factor.

Yup, agree with all of this. I think haywires are a necessity if your not taking additional Talos, scourges, baron and/or reavers (as these all offer some form of AT).

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

As a panic button, chain flails prevent the Talos from getting lazy. D6 attacks is pretty bad for something that big. Does it bother you a lot?

Extra CCW = 2-7 attacks, which is much better, but in then end, its not like your ever getting anything > 7. That said, those 2-7 attacks are in most cases tearing through any vehicle, or decapitating space marines. His resilience in combat (especially with a pain token) should keep him from dying in return. Potentially he will be killing 3/4 space marines a turn, which is pretty good.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Consider a combination of these two ideas:

Someone else suggested 4 blaster trueborn hopping out of the WWP. Ditch the Talos, and the wracks, and add 2 khymerae back in. With the rest of the extra points, add 2x4 Trueborn with blasters in the portal deployment raiders. I'd have to test this.

Put haywires back on, take off shardnets

Honestly, I think that would make the list much stronger, with the current mech meta. 4 blasterborn have a threat range of 24", coming out of the portal means that they can reach the whole field. Even if there are no good vehicle targets. 4/8 st 8 AP 2 shots will melt almost any elite troop in the game (as well as insta-killing anything with a T < 4). I originally hadn't even considered them in the list, but the ranged damage potential they bring is pretty awesome.

As for puting them in the raiders. I am not sure that is the best idea. Flamers torch warriors/trueborn pretty easily. They're raiders are likely going down. In their defense they will have FnP and a turn of shooting (hopefully) before anything happens to them. Likewise, their central positions and movement means they will have the same threat range as if they walked out of the portal. Add to this the fact that trueborn are really the only elite I'd include in a WWP list, and they are a pretty solid choice for escort. I'd still try to throw some reg trueborn in the squad to act as bullet shields though, as some armies can put out enough firepower to kill 4 warriors and a haemonculi even with FnP, and cover isn't guaranteed, although sought for.

As for the Talos, they're pretty good, and find a best fit in a WWP list. That said, I think its dangerous to take 1. They work best in pairs, or even as triplets. 1 just poses too much of a threat not to be dealt with, and isn't invincible enough to ignore the threat they draw. 2 results in either 1 dead 1 rampaging, or split fire, which is the best. 3 is just naughty, but it does take points from elsewhere. I think dropping it for haywires is a smart choice though.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I was going to build some BA and venture outside the safe world of mobile shooty xenos, or build my Tau again, once I sold some fantasy junk.

Maybe I should just rebuild this list, with the trueborn instead of the Talos? I own all the models, except the wyches, and I never owned the beasts but now I have the razorwings converted, I can use my blasterborn this time, and I can buy 2 boxes of direwolves or chaos hounds. Honestly, I should test it out again if I'm going to be here. Talos is gone oh well.

I still don't like the haywires, but I can see them working better... Should I build this when I get $$$ ?

Really it comes down to whether or not you really want wyches coming out of your WWP. Are wyches great, YES, they are freaking awesome. Honestly one of the best troop choices in the game. With 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP I have seen them survive some of the nastiest things thrown at them, even with no special weapons. Add to this the fact that they are no slouches in combat either (puting out 3 poison attacks on the charge, re-rolling to wound with 2 pain tokens (which I've found them getting pretty consistantly) or rolling +1 to S for combat drugs, which is AMAZING for wyches vs. SMs.

That said, their real issue isn't combat, its getting INTO combat. In raider lists its easy, as you have a super fast vehicle to fly them to within their ~18" charge range (2.5" from disembark, 6" move, 3.5" run, 6" assault (averages of course). They have the durability to survive even charging into cover. They will need a haemonculi escort however, as they are exponentially worse without FnP, especially outside of combat. WWPs do allow them to get that charge range they need, but there are just too many random factors to take into account: did I make my reserve roll, are there good targets in range, do i have a haemonculus to give them a pain token, is there terrain which will reduce my charge range, can I make it in 15.5" (average for WWP) charge.

Because of this, I have always felt that beasts and hellions are simply better combat troops coming out of portals. They may not be as resilient, but they put out a decent amount of damage and, more importantly, have ways to disregard intervening terrain (flying/beast rules) making their effective charge radius much more continuous then wyches (only being blocked by intervening units). They also tend to be more resilient vs shooting (barons +1 stealth, Khymera's 4++).

I'd have to say, buying 60 wyches is also a pretty hefty investment, if you don't own any right now. I would def buy 20/30 and try them out in a raider list first, and then see if they function as well in a WWP. My guess is they won't. But yea, a single Talos isn't all tha tmuch of a threat. There will be some games it will do spectacular, and most games it will simply just die, if by itself.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Vulkan anyone?

As scary as Psiflemen are, low model count means they can be torrented. A couple Ironclad or MMHF dreads in a vulcan list, and with drop pods is TERRIFYING.

Off-topic, but Vulkan He'stan is probably the best Marine HQ in any book, except maybe a basic Marine, Mephiston, Belial, or N'jal

Razorwings are better than Ravagers why? Do you need more AI help? They're just as fragile, too. More costly as well.

Yea, definitely agreed. Vanilla SMs are pretty lethal with certain builds. That said, GKs are also just the current bandwagon. They have good builds, but their sheer use doesn't indicate their success over SMs. Vulkan is nasty, vulkan drop pod lists are nasty, vulkan drop-pod gunlines are the nastiest, haha.

Razorwings offer flexibility. They cost a little bit more, and lose one dark lance, but they offer another splinter cannon, 4 large blasts (at increased range), all the defensive capabilities of a ravager, and the ability to move 36". 36" may be a little ridiculous, but when theres a wall of AT CC deep strikers coming your way, boosting to the far table corner = 2 more turns of firing.

The thing I see is, you should be able to throw enough AT into the portal that you shouldn't require the AT of ravagers in your backfield. Your ravagers are likely dying before the majority of your portal units arrive. In this way they are not supporting eachother, but only overlapping for a turn/two. Razorwings, on the other hand, operate great from reserve, and will be rolling in as your WWP units do, hopefully. They will have new targets when they arrive (as your close ranged AT and CC units tear through transports) and can be used to remove thorns (that unit that you got out of their transport, but will now be in a good position to destroy the unit assaulting their tank and next turn, move towards another unit they can vaporize. Now they may kill your tank assaulting unit, but at the beginning of your turn, BAM, 4 large blasts and the threat of that unit is greatly reduced.

Definitely with the list you have ravagers are a necessity. With only 1 talos, no haywire, no reavers, no baron, no sourges, no blasterborn, they are basically your only option for AT. If you moved some of your AT throughout your force, your AT will become more reactive, deploying where it needs to in order to maximize damage, whereas your 36" lances may just not be within range or have a clean shot. I always liked duality in units. The ravager is a very mono-purpose unit. It kills (or more likely disables) tanks, and does little else. Reavers, hellions, scourges, razorwings, etc. are great against either AT/AI, their worth is not reduced by lack of one or the other. WWP armies are very reactive armies, as you cannot dictate when a unit will arrive, in my opinion, ravagers are very active units on the other hand, they work best at lancing battle-lines for your raider/venom spam to strike at. If ravagers work better for you, and survive initial turns, they are a good choice. I just don't see it working for my meta .

I use ravagers as an alpha strike unit. Pop as many transports as humanly possible turns 1 and 2. Still alive Turn 3 somehow? Kill a gun-tank. Still there turn 4? Really? Mobile terrain. Turn 4 you can shoot and have guns left? WHAT? Who am I playing, lol? fine, block something from moving and shoot heavy infantry.

1998 points

2 Haemonculi
Webway Portals
Liquifiers
190

4 Trueborn
Blasters
Venom, 2 Cannons
Night Shield
183

4 Trueborn
Blasters
Venom, 2 Cannons
Night Shield
183

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

15 Wyches
Hekatrix
Venom blade
3 Shardnets
=195

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

4 Beastmasters 48
9 Khymerae 108
4 Razorwing Flocks 60
=216

Ravager
Night Shield
115

Ravager
Night Shield
115

I'm going to build and test this, that's my final decision.
Everything except the wyches can kill tanks somehow. Everthing except the ravagers can kill infantry, and they can still kill half a combat squad.

Just some interesting notes on DLs:

1 Dark Lance vs:
Armor 10 (other DE or Orks):
14.8% chance to kill
33.3% chance to keep from moving
37% chance to keep from shooting

Armor 11(Rhinos, Side Armors and such, some vehicles):
11.1% chance to kill
25.9% chance to keep from moving
29.6% chance to keep from shooting

Armor 12(Chimeras, everything else):
7.4% chance to kill
18.5% chance to keep from moving
22.2% chance to keep from shooting

So your 3 DLs have a 22.2% chance to kill a chimera in 1 turn. Both combined obviously have a 44.4% chance. This is also completely ignoring if the vehicles have popped smoke or are in cover, which any good general would attempt to deploy into or gain. This cuts both these percentages in half. I also ignored destroyed weapon results, as some tanks have multiple weapons, etc.

Each tank does have a fairly good chance of preventing one enemy tank from moving/shooting. like I've always said, DL ravagers are more disable-rs then destroyers.

Now, 3 heatlances on a Reaver squad within 9":

3 shots, 2 hits, strength 6 + 7 (average 2d6) = 2 pens, 1 destroyed on any vehicle with armor <= 12. This unit also has the ability to put out 18 st 4 hits on any unit it flys over. The duality of this unit is pretty amazing, although it is very fragile and relies on good tactics to stay alive and functional. Also it can suffer causalities and still have the ability to perform both roles. Once your ravager is dead, its support is absent.

As for your list, its definitely better then the first. Test it out and see how it runs, post your results on here, as I am definitely curious, as well as what your opponent ran if you don't mind. I'm excited to find out how it does, I would just cringe at spending that much $$$ on wyches . I would definitely suggest playing it against some competitive people you don't know before investing money in it (that's if your striving for a competitive list, if your playing for fun, then it really doesn't matter).

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

As scary as Psiflemen are, low model count means they can be torrented. A couple Ironclad or MMHF dreads in a vulcan list, and with drop pods is TERRIFYING.

Out of curiosity;

How many Psiriflemen do you usually face?
How many Ironclad/MMHF dreads do you usually face in Vulkan lists?

I actually usually find less of the latter and more of the former - so I don't see how low model count is an answer.

Thor, 6 psiflemen. Not sure if that's too much, GK is still being cracked.
3-4 in vulkan. 6 in Vulkan/MotF, but these are usually silly - the rock of the rock/paper/scissors mentality.

3 Dark Lances.

What math is that? I use HAMulator when I need simple mathhammer, and I can't afford to make a calculation error.

Average End Results:

Shaken : .28
Stunned : .17
Weapon Destroyed : .17
Immobilized : .17
Wrecked : .11
Explodes! : .11

This is total occurences of each result per 3 shots.

Shaken : 33%
Stunned : 17% (rounded up)
Weapon Destroyed : 17% (rounded up)
Immobilized : 17% (rounded up)
Wrecked : 8% (rounded down)
Explodes! : 8% (rounded down)

This is the percentile chance.

so, 16% kill. Add in stun/immobilize and 50%

Guard players will sit back anyway, but not far enough to escape the blasters and beasts. With blasters, I should auto hit 3-4 tanks before the Khymerae even strike, assuming none die.

Competitive people I don't know is a bit of an oxymoron. The list should be competitive regardless of opponent. That said, I don't associate being at a tournament with skill - I've heard horror stories about above average players I know tearing the minimal turnout at Ard Boyz round 1 prelims to shreds. I didn't go, I thought the missions were stupid and I couldnt afford/build 2500 points in time. So, the only way I can ascertain someone's skill is to play them multiple times.

I'd probably proxy bases/warriors for the wyches, like I did for the beasts originally. If it works, I'll let you know what it beat.

Busy day, so I'll just touch on this.

Chance to glance:

2/3 = 66% * 1/6 (Chance to glance) = 11.1% * 0 (Chance to destroy) = 0%
2/3 = 66% * 4/6 (Chance to pen) = 33% * 2/6 = 14.8%

So 14.8% to destroy for one lance.

Now I simply took that and multiplied it by 3, since you have 3 chances, so for armor 10 it would be 44.4%. Now, its been a long time since I've taken statistics, and I could be getting this completely wrong.

Regardless, your still not killing tanks, the majority of the time, your disabling them. You could have really good games, where you destroy most tanks, but most of the time, you are simply keeping them from moving/shooting, which is OK, but people talk as if 3x ravagers = dead enemy tanks by the end of turn 2, which in my experience, is rarely ever the case. When it does happen, I usually end up wiping my opponents off the board, when it doesn't, its more of a game.

As for your blasters, vs. a gunline army, lets say you get first, you move to center field, unload and drop WWP. Nothing should be within your blaster range. Next turn your opponent will have an entire shooting phase to severely reduce the number of blasters waiting by those portals. The reason blasters work in raider/venom spam, or coming out of the portal, is because they can make that alpha strike. When in venoms, they can turbo the first turn, survive enemy fire, and then still move 12" and unload blasters with range to any part of the table. When coming from WWPs they move on 6", so effectively can hit targets at 24", or most of the table. By dropping them off to WWP, or even leaving them in the tank, your basically giving your opponent a turn to pour fire into their tank, them, and your ravagers. The damage they take will greatly reduce their effectiveness. The real disadvantage is that your opponent will not have to use his AT to kill your blasters, he can focus all his AI at your blasters and AT at your raiders/ravagers. Without some ablative wounds to keep your blasters alive, I just don't see how they will be able to contribute in later turns, especially once their venom is downed.

And yea, proxying is the way to go. I have yet to buy a talos, but have used proxied Talos in 4/5 games, haha.

Also simply saying your list should be competitive regardless of your opponent is foolish. I could build several competitive lists (tournament placing/wining) that have a fairly high chance of demolishing your list. Even these highly competitive lists have weaknesses against certain builds. My daemon player has beat some of the top lists simply because they are weak against daemons (along with good dice rolls), but no one ever plays daemons, so they never factor them in, which I don't blame them, as the chance of facing a daemon player in a tournament is close to 0. In this light, how can you state that your list is competitive against everyone?

As for Ard Boyz, its a joke. Its expensive (travel, etc.), time consuming, players tend to be nasty (purposely slowing their turns to win, bending rules, uber cheese, etc.), and GTs offer just as much prestige. GTs have more rounds, are in one location, and still bring the most competitive players. There are still nasty ones, but there are generally less players simply looking to win, as they draw more of a local crowd. At least that has been my experience with both in the past.

If you are seeing that many dreads you should ALWAYS put grenades on your wyches.

You know how effective a Psyfleman is in combat with a wych squad with haywires and a shardnet or two? Usually you'll finish the dread off the the opponents turn, especially if they don't have extra armour. The IC dread may be a bit tougher since he starts with the extra armour, but you'll still quickly tarpit him into a non-issue.

As for a competitive list, it's a fine edge to be a competitive list, as opposed to a flexible list. Yes you can be competitive, but you can't plan for the player who isn't competitive. 9 carnifexes isn't competitive so you don't plan for it, but it could show up just the same.

As far as the overall WWP discussion, you could run a full on WWP list but may run into some hang ups. Alot of the large WWP units have a big footprint, so if you get alot of them come during one turn, you may prevent yourself from coming from the portal. Of course there is the possibility that you come in piecemeal, or in an ineffective order(gettingthe wyches in first before the talos to pop the transport leaves them with nothing to assault).

Through various games, I've basically come to the conclusion that you need about 1/3rd of your army on the table to start. This gives you enough to prepare for the things coming out of the portal, and usually also enough for the opponent to worry about that the portal carrier is a secondary priority.