WWP, Can it be done?

Alright. So I really REALLY like the idea behind WWP and I would really REALLY like to make it work as a competitive tournament army. However, holding everything in reserve just scares me like none-other. I am hoping that the ability to come on from 2 spots on opposite ends of the field and a whole table edge will soften that blow, but I'm just not so sure. In order to make my current list work I would also need to buy 2 Talos, an additional box of hellions and maybe some scourges or more bikes. Before spending 100+ dollars I wanted to ask my dark city brethren what they think of WWP as a viable build.

Will it work? Have you tried it? Have you seen it work? What units worked great? What armies is it good/bad against? etc.

Any information to help me make my decision would be greatly appreciated. The alternative would be to run a wych cult or coven list. I can't do a regular warrior/blasterborn build, its just too predictable and boring. THANKS!

Well am currently experimenting with a 2000pt list for WWP.

Total: 1998

HQ - 170
Haem w/ WWP
85

Haem w/ WWP
85

Elite - 324
Trueborn x 4
Blasters x 4
108

Trueborn x 4
Blasters x 4
108

Trueborn x 4
Blasters x 4
108

Troops - 785
wyches x 6
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoinser
Blast Pistol
Raider
Grisly Trophy
Flicker Field
202

Wychs x 6
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoinser
Blast Pistol
Raider
Grisly Trophy
Flicker Field
202

Wychs x 6
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoinser
Blast Pistol
127

Wychs x 6
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoinser
Blast Pistol
127

Wychs x 6
Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Agoinser
Blast Pistol
127

Fast - 344
Reavers x 6
Champion
Blaster x 2
172

Reavers x 6
Champion
Blaster x 2
172

Heavy - 375
Ravanger
Flicker Field
Night Shields
125

Ravanger
Flicker Field
Night Shields
125

Ravanger
Flicker Field
Night Shields
125

So far the biggest issue I been having is anti tank, the list I provided so far did alot better against my friend who plays a jump pack BA list that consists of 2 SR, BT Furioso, BF DC Dread. I am also working on a 'ard Boys list, the only changes will be 1 more wyche for each squad and another reaver unit. or 2 9 man reavers with 3 blasters. Against MSU it rocks if you can get to blow up the transports, my friend doesnt do MSU anymore he runs around with 10 man Assault Squads with a priest in them, so it gets a bit harder especially he has his priest bare and tries to hide in the middle to back of the squad to keep it out of B2B so I can't allocate wounds to him (kicking myself in the groin for suggesting that tactic to him in the first place.) I haven't tried against his SW list though. Also it works great with GK, take away their shooting by assaulting them with mass wyches and they fall like dominoes.

I played around heavily with WWP when the codex first came out I dont have my finalised list on hand (at work atm) but it did really well, only lossing 3 matchs out of the 14 or so I played with it. just a few tips for you that I found out the hard way about:

Try to put the WWP half way into cover, that way if you have anything that comes out and needs it (like wyches, helions, or warriors) they can start in it and wait, it also allows your haemie to possibly surivive and pass on his token

Taloi and Chronoi are amazing in WWP lists, not only do they bring some AT to the list, they are bullet magnets, which helps you get through those turns when your other stuff has to into combat (or hasnt come out yet) Also the Chronos is great for passing along pain tokens to things that need to surivive.

Dont deploy your WWP up at the half way mark, drop them back oh... to the 20~18in mark. Any closer and you run the risk of any army with mech blocking the portal and not allowing anything come in. The biggest mistake with people is that they drop them so close, and then when they are rendered useless, you have to hoof it across the board.

You dont always have to drop both portals T1, remember you can hold onto it and kinda daisy chain the portals up the board. I did this once at a local tournament with an Archon with a WWP in a squad of wyches that came out of the portal. After they got onto the enemy objective, he just popped his open, which allowed me to reenforce not only my objectives and the middle, but theirs as well.

I would stay as far away from mech as possible, using tansports for the WWP carriers and thats it. Hybrid has never worked for me, and I havent seen it work period. Anything on the field T1 is getting destoryed by the full amount of enemy fire, because half your army is sitting in reserves waiting.

Hope that helps

Let's see, I've run about half a dozen variants thus far, and for my money it's a lot of fun, it's reasonably competitive, but against top tier lists it's going to be eaten alive without much difficulty. I find my biggest issues thus far are Eldar (because I start feeling like a sadsack footslogger vs. them) and GK (I don't have enough shooting, and I also don't have an assault force that can handle what the GKs can do in assault).

My list, currently, looks roughly like this;

Haem w. WWP and Liquifier.
Haem w. WWP and Liquifier.
Trueborn w. Blasters in Venom
Trueborn w. Blasters in Venom
Trueborn w. Blasters in Venom
10 Wyches w. Hekagoniser and Haywires
10 Wyches w. Hekagoniser and Haywires
10 Wyches w. Hekagoniser and Haywires
10 Wyches w. Hekagoniser and Haywires
Baron Sathypants and Beastmaster squad
Ravager
Talos w. Chain Flails and Heat Lance/Haywire Blaster
Talos w. Chain Flails and Heat Lance/Haywire Blaster

Ravager and Trueborn start on board.
Baron Sathy hopefully let sme go first.
Drop one portal turn one (maybe both, depends)
Ravager and Trueborn try to weaken mech threat and pop transports.
Stuff comes out of portals
???
Profit.

It doesn't have a bad win ratio - but I find myself managing near wins versus armies my usual tourney lists would have tabled by Turn 3 and thus I know it's not tourney ready. I think it's a very doable army depending on your goals with it.

If you're going to go to Ard Boyz or GTs and want to win, I would avoid it.
If you're playing locally and your biggest danger is "Bob and his broken/cheesy Space Wolf Army" or something like that, I think with practice and work you'll be able to win solidly and make the local champ look like a fool.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Alot of the effectiveness of the WWP army is dependant on what is coming out of the portal.

As others have said, Talos/Cronos are great coming out of a portal, where as something like warriors or wracks are just as effective out of a raider, the portal just saves the points on the raider and gives you more squads.

Where the portal really helps is for fast assault work. Beasts and large squads of wyches can dominate the back end of a table and coming out of the portal are right there into combat.

I've pretty much run WWP lists exclusively since the new book came out, I did try some raider spam lists, but didn't enjoy it as much. I can post up one of my 1750 lists when I get home, with a bit more detailed post on specifics.

Imo, Beastmasters and to a lesser extent Pain Engines are the penultimate WWP terrors.

I think Talos edge out Beastmasters - though it can depend on the build. Basically the WWP list usually needs more anti-tank, and Talos do that quite well.

I got a lot to share but work is getting in the way and I can't make it short.

I will chime in when I get a free moment!!!

Beasts are really good out of a portal, their charge range is insane, almost guarenteeing them a charge when they come out. Other good units are scourges, Reavers, and helion, as they close that gap people leave around your portals quickly. Pretty much what your looking for is units that when they come out, they disrupt and hold enemy units in place, allowing your slower units (pain engines, grots, footies) to catch up and get stuck in.

Hmmm, I wrote a very long and complicated tactica and I think it is boring and confusing so I wrote this instead – gah, almost the same!

I will try to simplify my thoughts and experiences – not claiming to be an expert but I was solely a portal player in 4th edition and some of that know-how does translate over to this edition. So take this as just some ideas, it’s not scripture.

I like to divide the list design into segments, starting units and reserve units (obviously). Starting units will of course be 2 separate units accompanied by and IC with a portal. Depending on the opponent, mission and terrain I will sometimes use “distraction” units to saturate the targets the opponent gets to shoot at but that is an old tactic back in 4th edition that I think has become less needed depending on the units you are using to escort the wwp carrier. My most used system is:

10 plain, un-upgraded wracks accompanied by a Haemy and wrack squad on a raider with a Haemy. The foot unit is only moving forward 6” and dropping the portal (a conservative spot) and the other unit is moving more aggressively to the midboard – simply, moving around 12” to the center, disembarking into cover and then placing the portal out of cover.

I haven’t tried with any other unit to escort the wwp carrier other than a squad of Harlies and they performed exactly as designed – they were unseen for at least 2 turns even when placed 24” in front of a squad of long fangs. I will be experimenting more with them as it was nice not sacrificing the Haemy or the squad to where they get shot up to the point of being ineffectual in the game.

I have also used an Archon with Harlies before but due to the nature of the game I decided to put the Harlies into the portal and just hid the Archon on the board completely out of view and ran him solo – in this format I used distraction units to draw fire so it wasn’t just the Archon on the board, there were other raider squads on the table that the opponent was more anxious to shoot at.

As for the execution of these units in delivering 2 portals in good strategically well placed positions it was very easy. The only hiccup I encountered was when I used my wracks on raider I went too far forward, I got to the midline and placed the portal on his half of the table and they ended up getting charged by Thunderwolves (which wiped out the haemy and wracks and thus surrounded the portal – now, I try to put the portal near the midline but on my half of the table.

Where you put the portal also depends on the units you have in reserve. Bikes and Beasts are phenomenal when they emerge – they have always found a target straight out of the portal. Hellions were good too in the two times I used them but they are still a work in progress for me. Another item that is funny about the hellions and even the beasts is that when you got 3 or 4 units emerging from one portal is the amount of space needed – their footprint is rather large and they desperately compete for locations around the portal. A good example of that was when I ran a full squad of 10 Scourges with a full squad of 10 Hellions – space around the forward portal got really cramped.

*The bikes I used had caltrops and they just have a field day hitting squads on foot over 30" away

The Talos and Cronos also have been great but these two units prefer an aggressive placement of the portal because of the way I equipped them. If I had given the Talos a haywire blaster instead of a heat lance then the Talos can essentially use a less aggressive portal placement just like the Cronos and it’s Vortex (but it can get the syphon into range I will usually use the forward most portal).

Scourges to me seemed to be another ideal portal user as I would declare them as “deep striking” and when they were ready to enter the game I got the choice of using either the portal or to just deep strike. I have done this before where I didn’t quite get the portal where I wanted it and just decided to deep strike them to pop a Land Raider. They dropped without incidence and with only 2 heat lances they popped the land raider. However, I have used the portal as their preference most of the time so I really do like the flexibility of this unit in a portal list.

So as you can tell, any and all the “Fast Attack” choices are perfect for the portal.

Another extremely flexible unit is Mandrakes, I know no one likes them but I have used them 2 or 3 times now and I have gotten decent results from them but I digress. I would normally declare them as “outflanking” when I haven’t infiltrated them. In one game they emerged from the portal along with a Cronos and as luck had it the Cronos did manage to kill a marine with the vortex and immediately gave the mandrakes a token. I am probably going to experiment them next by infiltrating them near where I want to place a portal and have a raider of wracks and have the haemy disembark into the mandrakes that are hopefully in cover. The match-up seems to be what GW designed them to do so perhaps it will save the haemy and give the Mandrakes what they need on the opening turn.

I have tried a full squad of 10 wyches out of the portal but they make me nervous despite the good luck with them in the one game I used them. They emerged from the back portal and combo-charged a squad of terminators along with the Harlies mentioned above – It wasn’t hard to charge out of the portal and into assault in this game but I can’t imagine it working all the time so I am very nervous with wyches using the portal.

The one troop choice I did run out of the portal was a full squad of 10 wracks w/2 liquefiers and an Acothyst with an agonizer. They did not need to charge anything straight out of the portal but rather would start trekking to the nearest objective. I have had decent results from them but they are a little expensive for just primarily camping.

Warriors would also be a good bet but I do not remember if I have ever used them out of a portal or not. Perhaps a warrior blob or a squad geared for dakka would do well with a run n’ gun method.

Another unit that I have only used as a “distraction” unit are grotesques. I have seen others use the grotesques as the escorts for the Haemy and I have seen Grots on foot coming out of the portal – for one reason or another I just haven’t seen this as good. I would much rather flat-out a raider of Grots at the opponent while the portal unit and escort do their thing behind them. Every time, the opponent will divert all attention into dealing with the Grots and ignore the web deployers completely. Sometimes the grots had Urien inside and other times an Archon with a haemy – idea was to flat-out and then aether sail this mini-wreaking ball as close to the intended target as possible. The opponent would then use every gun he has to crash the raider and then try to hurt the occupants – good luck when the unit is fearless, in cover and has FnP. Then on the next turn the portal units will start to emerge from portal and the Grotesque death star can charge immediately into something.

So overall you I think you will have a decent chance of winning as long as you understand the nature of your units coming out unpredictably. It is kind of a delayed alpha strike that you are unsure is coming in the 2nd or 3rd turn so you have to have orchestrate those units together accordingly. It isn’t easy and it will drive you crazy sometimes but when it does work as you planned it is well worth the wait and extremely satisfying.

P.S. I am not big on running small wrack squads on venoms with a haemy but I am sure it is viable - its just they are not my "cup of tea" unit.

If your still interested in seeing a WWP list work, go see my two batreps with BA

https://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1002-2000pts-wwp-vs-ba-doa#10119

While I admittedly never run the same list twice, I've had a lot of success and fun running two WWP's. I've never run one(too chicken) for risk of having all of my reserves have to walk on. The Talos out of a WWP is an absolute BEAST. I play a lot of mech'd armies (parking lot IG vets, Tau Fish of Fury, Razorspam) and really find that the Talos is worth its weight in gold when getting the considerable jump across the board. When armies that like to camp out and shoot see that there is a new point through which nasties like the Talos can ht their line from next turn they start making bad decisions and play into your hand.

Rather than investing in expensive Beastmaster units I would try wyche units with haywire grenades or whatever you think is clever. You get another scoring unit that won't break the bank either. I tend to play tossed-salad lists rather than anything super specific and have had success with just about anything that I've shoved out of a WWP.

Great posts here guys. I have been super busy at work the past week/2 but I want to throw some lists up tonight and see what you think. Thanks for all your input!

GreySeerZ wrote:

However, holding everything in reserve just scares me like none-other...

Any information to help me make my decision would be greatly appreciated. The alternative would be to run a wych cult or coven list. I can't do a regular warrior/blasterborn build, its just too predictable and boring. THANKS!

I respect your courage and ambition. It's always difficult to try new tactics.

Try working with a Dark Eldar list that you know works before experimenting with WWP. If holding everything, or almost everything in reserve frightens you, more experience with reserves is INFINITELY more helpful than a killer list, or anything else. Without Vect, full reserve is a pretty sound tactic against most armies when going second - especially Psiflemen Dreads, Hydras, and anything with tons of medium strength shooting.

When you're familiar with reserves enough that deploying everything and deploying nothing are equally scary prospects, you're ready to build an army around the reserve mechanic.

Also, while the Kabal/Coven/Cult distinctions are helpful, it's important not to let them mire you in making a good list. Most good lists incorporate 2 or more of these factions in some way. If you want to make a themed/fluff list, then by all means, but if strategy is of any importance you need to consider how rigidly you'll follow your background. I personally like to make a list first, and let the story behind the army unfold from playtesting.

Further, mono-Kabal lists make excellent candidates for WWP as well. And I highly recommend you integrate some vehicles, or consider a couple infantry units to potentially start on the board. Vehicles can't use the portal, but they can use strategic reserve, and vehicles with Supersonic and Aerial Assault rules synergize well with portal lists.

Rigidity and dogmatism are a mon-keigh general's tools. Being flexible, fluid, and adaptive allow you to respond to your opponent long enough to establish control, and begin dictating the tempo of the game. For the WWP user, this often means being able to deploy/reserve units without using the portal.

Best of luck, and keep trying. The WWP is a great tool, and a lot of fun once mastered!

Quote :

Rather than investing in expensive Beastmaster units

3xBeast master
4x Razorflok
4xKhymera
>>>144

Compare to:
8x Wyches
Hekatrix w/Agoniser
>>>110
Raider
w/ EA,
>>>65

132<175 Do some math, decent beast unit is cheaper and have 27W, some with FnP, some with 4++

GrenAcid wrote:

...decent beast unit is cheaper and have 27W, some with FnP, some with 4++

Agreed. Beast units are amazing. Add to this the lack of transports in a WWP army and the 12" charge range of beasts make them much more of a threat. I am considering taking 2 of these, backed up by a squad of reavers for AT, as my 3 fast attack slots.

Again, why is there a lack of transports? Certainly, there are less than Mech. But be careful not to let your wargear dictate your list - it's the other way around!

@Preacher - though if there are Wyches in transports it does beg the question what's coming out of the WWP. If all you're doing is delivering a couple Talos and some Beasts...probably you ought to just finish making that Raider Rush army you're clearly building.

What I'm asking is why you have this one or the other mentality when it's clearly hurting you. I'm not clearly building anything, certainly not a Raider Rush army! Best not to accuse, but to ask.

If you're running a WWP, then obviously big Wych squads running out of the portal is going to work better. But that portal's a lot better if you can drop it into midfield, with help from a transport.

Warriors/Trueborn, as the primary shooting infantry, don't benefit as much from a WWP. But a couple squads with transports can support your Wyches, Talos/Cronos, and beasts as they tear apart anything that gets too close to the portal. A couple gunboats can shoot down runners and stragglers, while hemming in the enemy. A single warrior gunboat takes the responsibility of objective capping off wracks and wyches, letting them do what they do best - WWP-assisted murder!

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

What I'm asking is why you have this one or the other mentality when it's clearly hurting you. I'm not clearly building anything, certainly not a Raider Rush army! Best not to accuse, but to ask.

I think you're mistaking me with GreySeer.

The conversation thread was;

Green Acid: Let's compare Wyches in Transports to Beasts for cost.
GreySeer: Though in WWP, without transports, Beasts are better.
Preacher: Why limit yourself to lack of transports?
Thor: But if you put Wyches in transports, why run WWP?

That's how I understood it - I think either I'm confused or you are, but your answer above isn't making sense to me unless you think I'm GreySeer sorta.... Help?

I asked GreySeer why there'd be no transports. I see a theme throughout this entire thread - either Mech or WWP, no in between. Both are extremes that present tactical handicaps, and there's no reason to completely cut one to maximize use of the other.

You accused me of trying to just run a Raider Rush build, and assumed I meant that Wyches belonged in the transports, right? I agree with you, they probably belong in the WWP, and possibly wracks as well.

And I'm not sure why Wyches and Beasts are also an either-or scenario. They don't compete for Force Org slots, or roles, at all. But, I decided to ignore that and not stick my head out, as it seemed kind of a silly and off-topic non-issue.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

I asked GreySeer why there'd be no transports. I see a theme throughout this entire thread - either Mech or WWP, no in between. Both are extremes that present tactical handicaps, and there's no reason to completely cut one to maximize use of the other.

Mmmm, maybe. I know that I argued for WWP carriers to be meched and also included a Ravager in my list - so I don't think it's as strong either or.

I do have some either/or leanings simply because in order to have a good WWP delivery system you're spending 140+ points...and at that stage I really feel you ought to have some serious stuff coming out of those portals to make it worthwhile. If all that's coming out is 2 Talos...well, why not save 140 points and just have the Talos footslog?

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

You accused me of trying to just run a Raider Rush build, and assumed I meant that Wyches belonged in the transports, right? I agree with you, they probably belong in the WWP, and possibly wracks as well.

I must have misunderstood what you meant when you brought up transports, I thought you were doing it in reference to the Wych discussion.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

And I'm not sure why Wyches and Beasts are also an either-or scenario.

They aren't. In the list I posted I run both.
But some posters were debating which is "better" for WWP which is a reasonable debate to have.

Fair, but I'm still uncertain why Wyches/Beasts should come down to anything objective.

Harlequins can deploy the WWP well. You don't need to protect the carrier, because the WWP has diminishing returns when you drop it after Turn 1.

PreacherOfDeath wrote:

Fair, but I'm still uncertain why Wyches/Beasts should come down to anything objective.

Well, for example, say you have enough points to only get one Beastmaster squad or one Wych squad - which do you choose? There's a viable question there.

Rofl. This thread has gone bonkers and way to philosophical. I'm looking for the optimal list utilizing WWPs as a primary focus of the army, and entry point for deployment. Why? Because the list will be more focused. There will be limited targets at the start of the game, denying KPs while giving me the ability to dictate the flow of the game and where my reinforcements will reinforce. This reduces the serious hindrance of having reserve rolls by giving additional options on where to deploy.

The reason not to run transports in a WWP list is because your obviously sinking points into WWPs and units that come out of them. That means you will have significantly less points available for transports/vehicles. The field is no longer saturated with possible targets for AT firepower to target. A 3x longfang SW list would have an easy time downing each of my 4/5 transports, leaving my units and WWPs out in the open while reducing my anti-tank with each downed raider. These points I could have spent instead on more units popping out of the portals I invested so heavily in.

Hence my initial post discussing a WWP army. I do not consider 2 raiders with wycbes, some venoms with wracks and haemonculi, and ravagers to be considered a WWP army just because 1/2 haemonculus has a WWP as an item. This is more of a codex list, focusing on taking a wide spread of units. I am more interested in lists focusing on WWP deployment. I also feel that if your using WWPs to simply deploy 1/2 Talos you are seriously gimping yourself and wasting those points. If they don't arrive til the final turn your opponent will have plenty of time to deal with your lesser force that started on the board, and then pick them off as they come out. Personally, I feel that in order to optimize a WWP list, it is important to go all or nothing. I already know I can build a competitive list around raiders, venoms, blasterborn, wyches, etc. I'm now interested in building a WWP list that utilizes units that operate well out of a WWP. I will post some lists as examples.