Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?

I grudgingly gave up on splinter rack gunboats after I did some math and determined that they are not points-efficient compared to Venoms.

A Venom will cause four wounds, at a cost of 16.25 points per wound, with a threat range of 48". 10 Kabalites on a splinter racks Raider will probably cause four wounds with a threat range of 30", at 40 points/wound, or 8 wounds with a threat range of 18", at 20 points per wound. I am assuming the Raider has a dark lance, but I don't see those 5 points as skewing the numbers here too much; also, if you're doing this, you probably want night shields on that Raider, and I did not include those points in my math. Also, I consider the Raider to a better choice than a Venom in other circumstances and roles. All I am considering here is our most point-efficient way to gun down infantry, and looking at these numbers, I don't think Kabalites on Raiders are it.

But I just met my first flying hive tyrant, and it ate my army.

Are splinter rack gun boats our best way of dealing with flying monstrous creatures?

A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

Thoughts?

Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?
Being that splinter shots still only AP5 and what you're really after is either the unlucky grounding or the AP2 hit to really ensure the wound goes through.
If you're going for a grounding roll, then a bunch of splinter fire would work, but you'd have to follow it around with a combat unit, investing even more points in killing it(i'm aware that you can shoot him after being grounded, but i'm assuming that most of the shooting would have been spent in actually scoring the unsaved wound needed to get it grounded).
A razorwing has the splinter fire and the lance fire to cover both.

That's just my thought process.

Well, in either a CAD or Realspace Raiders detachment, you need two troops, and the Splinter Rack gunboats are a pretty good way to fill those out. My first competitive event after the new codex dropped saw two Nidzilla lists on my dance card, both of which I tabled by turn 3.

I've had them fail spectacularly before, but I chalk those failures up to poor decision making on my part. I don't think I'd take more than the mandatory troop slots (which I would have done last edition) but for those two selections, I think they bring a lot to the table.

I think having both on the table, an easily achievable task, will handle hive tyrants. But the Gunboat will prove to be more durable with nightshields.

Quote :

A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom. The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.

I make it 0.33 wounds per Venom (discounting any passengers) and 1.055 per gunboat (discounting the raider and assuming the tenth guy has a blaster).

HERO wrote:

Quote :

A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom.  The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.

My math may be completely wrong. Looking at it again, some of it is definitely wrong, because I was attempting to multi-task when I wrote this and I've never pretended that I'm good at math.

The venom gets 12 shots. 1 in 6 hit, so that's 2 hits, one of which will probably wound. Then the target rolls whatever saves.
The 10 guys with splinter rifles on the raider will get 1 (1.67) hit when not rapid firing, and then 1 more (1.5) hit for being twin-linked, so 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and then they get their saves. When rapid firing, they get 20 shots, getting 3 (3.34) hits, and then 2-3 more (2.83) for being twin-linked, so 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds.

Does that seem right?

nexs wrote:

Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?

It's the twin-linking that you're after here, so as to get as many hits as possible, although if you have AP2 you do at least force the opponent to consider jinking, whereas splinter fire will just go on armour saves.

Calyptra wrote:

HERO wrote:

Quote :

A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom.  The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.

My math may be completely wrong. Looking at it again, some of it is definitely wrong, because I was attempting to multi-task when I wrote this and I've never pretended that I'm good at math.

The venom gets 12 shots. 1 in 6 hit, so that's 2 hits, one of which will probably wound. Then the target rolls whatever saves.
The 10 guys with splinter rifles on the raider will get 1 (1.67) hit when not rapid firing, and then 1 more (1.5) hit for being twin-linked, so 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and then they get their saves. When rapid firing, they get 20 shots, getting 3 (3.34) hits, and then 2-3 more (2.83) for being twin-linked, so 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds.

Does that seem right?

Yeah: should get 6 hits at rapid fire range, 3 wounds, and then assuming a 3+ 1 should make it through. 0.5 should make it through if outside rapid fire range. That's if you have 10 in the boat. You lose 0.1 if you are taking a special weapon in the group and gain about that (less if rapid firing) if you take a splinter cannon.

Count Adhemar wrote:

nexs wrote:

Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?

It's the twin-linking that you're after here, so as to get as many hits as possible, although if you have AP2 you do at least force the opponent to consider jinking, whereas splinter fire will just go on armour saves.

That's true but twin linking snap shots still won't reliably give you a hit (well... neither will shooting at full BS.... Damned dice)

depends what you're twin linking - if you twin link 20 shots from a raider then you should still average 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 unsaved.

That's fair, but there's a further 2/3 chance they won't get grounded. At least if they jink they'll be useless for a turn

The Raider brings a different utility to the table, that's all.

The vehicle can jink, and the anti-infantry fire is unaffected. This makes the unit as a whole far more survivable - an extra HP on the boat, a 4+ save that you (if you're looking at infantry) don't have to think about saying yes to, and twice the bodies which make it that much easier to make it to late-game-fearless for objectives.

The game isn't just about killing power, so looking at point-per-wound caused can mislead you sometimes.

I agree that points-per-wound is far from the only important metric, but it's still a useful data point.

nexs wrote:

That's fair, but there's a further 2/3 chance they won't get grounded. At least if they jink they'll be useless for a turn

I think they can still Vector Strike. But, yes, it does help to limit their effectiveness.

you would need to mass flyers to do anything effective against a FMC. Most have 2+ jink, I've had a razorwing take one down with nice rolls but against skyblight you just need to either make a whole list to combat it or just forget about it in competetive play. I think with a 2+ jink it takes like 120 poison shots to get it out of the sky... which is practically 1200 points of DE shooting at 250 points of flyrant. Sure you might kill one but they still have 4 more on the table (hive fleet/Skyblight 'or whatever the gargoyle list is) it's brutal and I just don't think theres a point trying to counter it.

The only fmc that are worrisome are the flying hive tyrants and the only time they have a 2+ is 1st turn within venemthrope range (which you should kill first on almost any occasion the only exception is when the guy doesn't jink with tyrants and they aren't in ruins). 4 wounds 3+ armor T6. Disintegrators are nice but wound on 5's so not as good and DL snap shooting are unreliable. so when shooting at them you need to get 12 wounds to kill them (I never include grounding tests when it happens it is nice though). 12 wounds wounding on 4's require 24 hits, 24 hits wounding on 6's require 144 shots or 12 venoms (780 points) to kill a tyrant in 1 turn. In boats with 20 shots (rapid fire) you are throwing up 37 shots total (assuming 3 hit first time) meaning you only need 4 boats (660) to kill a tyrant. Also the boats are more likely to live through the tyrants shooting if they are in range to shoot them before you shoot so you can jink for a 3+ against them. Tyrant shoots 12 shots, 10 hit, 5 glance or pens save 3. So as long as he doesnt roll a 6 on the pen you should be able to shoot.

The downside with the boat is that it has to be at close range so you are better going second and counter deploying in hopes that his guns cant reach your boats.
Conclusion boats are better at close range but venoms are better at long range.

Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.

Its_Rumble wrote:

you would need to mass flyers to do anything effective against a FMC. Most have 2+ jink

Sorry but where are all these 2+ jink saves coming from? Other than a Nurgle DP I can't think of any off the top of my head.

venomthropes?

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

venomthropes?

To be honest, if a Flyrant is staying within 6" of a Venomthrope then I'll just outrange him as he's pretty much stuck in place.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

venomthropes?

To be honest, if a Flyrant is staying within 6" of a Venomthrope then I'll just outrange him as he's pretty much stuck in place.

Agreed, I was just trying to think of cases where they could get a 2+

Calyptra wrote:

Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.

I think that was old dex they dont have that anymore (except maybe in cc but if that's the case the tyrants arent much of a problem). Though with fighter ace they can get +1 wound.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Calyptra wrote:

Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.

I think that was old dex they dont have that anymore (except maybe in cc but if that's the case the tyrants arent much of a problem). Though with fighter ace they can get +1 wound.

It's a 30 point Biomorph in their current codex. They regain a wound on a 4+ at the end of each turn.

You are absolutely right. I wonder why the guys that play tyranids in my area dont use it...

"The" Flyrant costs 240 pts with grubs and devourers. other upgrades brings it too expencive. and most of the time it dies in one turn of shooting or cc.