Why Dark Eldar are next. Long but likely true.

So GW wanted to release a new boxed set that features the Sisters of Battle, an army that is well balanced and pretty powerful, one that I think surprised them at how popular it was. What better way to entice players on the fence about starting them as a new army than by a new boxed set!
But who to pit them against....

If GW threw them against marines (either chaos or imperium) the pushback would be pretty loud and angry... great! More marines at the expense of the Xenos!
Necrons? that would have worked well except that they just pushed them pretty hard, and most people that want to play them are doing so. It was too soon for the space toasters to be pushed again.

So that leaves Eldar, who have a horrible model range and is nowhere near good enough for a boxed set, tyranids, who, though maybe would work, it does not fit the aesthetic of who battle nuns should be fighting,Tau who need a complete rework, no no... the perfect opponent would be... Dark Eldar.
And to be more specific, sadistic space babes against pure, virtuous space nuns... sisters versus Wyches! the model range is still pretty nice and holds up well... the rules would be easy to tweak to bring in line with 9th with minimal effort, and how easy would a single new model be to make, based off almost the exact model they already have? Just giver her hulk arms, hulk abs and hulk feet... we can call her Lelith Hulksperax.

So, sisters will be pitted against Wyches. Problem solved! Now lets go sell some Sisters models!

Yeah, so where does that leave us? Lets look at the change we know. Incubi.
They made them 2+ to hit, which the Klaivex always had, and the entire dark Eldar army had at turn 3 anyway. So what would you call that? Table crumbs? I think that is a fair assessment, going around bragging that Incubi now hit on turn 1 as well as they hit on turn 3 (and lets be realistic here, how many turn 1 combats do incubi have? None.) so we got 1 extra turn of +1 to hit. That is the reality. Saying Incubi hit on 2+ now! like it is some amazing gift is laughable. As Christmas presents go, you just got an ugly sweater, and have to smile at your Aunt Gladys and thank her for the hideous thing.

Incubi now do 2 wounds! How awesome is that?
Well, since you asked, not really that awesome. It will help with fighting vehicles and the like, but against the mainstay of 40K, the Marines, we did not gain a single thing we did not already have.
Before, Incubi killed marines with every wound that was unsaved. then marines went to 2 wounds. So Incubi, as of now, would kill marines with every unsaved wound.
wait a second.
That is the same thing! At least offensively.
So lets see what Incubi got defensively.
Like the marines, they too got 2 wounds to help protect them from bolter and small arms fire, so that is a good thing.
Wait. What? They are still 1 wound, and will die in droves to lasgun fire?
Ok, so they "GAVE" Incubi the exact same ability they had before, being able to kill most marines in hand to hand. But they did not increase the survivability of them one bit. Marines kill Incubi just as easy as before, easier if they are using a heavy bolter, as the FNP will not work unless you roll boxcars, and they made marines much harder to kill.
And they wrapped this giant turd sandwich in a pretty bow and gave it to us as a gift.

So what does this foreshadow?
In my opinion, it shows that GW plans on bringing Dark Eldar "In Line" with 9th edition. A tweak here, an adjustment there, some new stratagems. But nothing new. No reworking of the PFP, no retooling of the useless beasts or hellions, no fixing the inexplicable desire GW has to make Kabal units HTH.... it is frustrating.

And I know a lot of you don't need another "Gloom and doom" post. I just got tired of hearing from people how great the new Incubi are, when if you stop to give it some thought, they could arguably be worse in 9th than they were in 8th, when taking into account adjustments to other armies.
I am worried GW just threw Dark Eldar into the mix because they would take the least effort to modify to 9th... and that is what my greatest fear is... they did the least effort.

Hope I am wrong, but would bet I am not.

I understand your fear.
And we have been the recievers of least-effort-codexes before (the 7e codex, in my opinion), so your fear definitely comes from a reasonable place.

But I want to tell you, that I think you are applying a negative viewpoint that is not necessarily the correct one.
I will address two of your major points, and I will then suggest a conclusion.

First of all: the battle box.
You seem to view it in a vacuum. Removed from the history of similiar releases of the past 5 years. Wherein all the armies you mention (and disregard) as possible choices has been featured in a similiar battle box*:

(*that being a box containing one new (and exclusive, to be released at a later time) plastic commander and on each side leading a small force of current models at a discount price. Often with some story and/or missions included)

- Tau vs Marines (Raven Guard) (Ethereal on platform & SM Captain (maybe Shrike, can't remember)
- Deathwatch vs Harlequins (Captain Artemis(?) & Eldrad Ulthuan)
- Necrons vs Adeptus Mechanicus (Cryptek with wraith cloak & Tech Priest)
- Primaris Marines vs Eldar. (Spiritseer & Primaris Lieutenant)

I might be forgetting one or two. But the point is we do not know the reason why the factions in a battlebox are chosen (more often then not they are released in some proximity to a codex release of one, or both, of the related factions, though). More likely than not drukhari was chosen for this one simply because it was their turn, or because they wantet to highlight an upcoming 'Dex/release.
In none of the other instances has a box release of this sort had any negative connotations on the armies featured, and I can't see a reason why that would be the case here?


Secondly, what we know of the Incubi in the coming book.
The changes we've seen are exactely what the Incubi needs in order to be what they are supposed to be (that being: highly skilled closecombat warriors and marine-equivalent-killers). They used to have a weapon skill-value of 5 (one of maybe 4-5 non-HQ units in the game to have that high), meaning they hit most other units on 3+ instead of 4+. The change in 8e to how WS works kept them at 3+, but boosted most good (but not excellent) CC units to 3+, also. Meaning that one of the key features of the Incubi got washed out, in comparison to others.
The changes we've seen to them, to me, sends a very clear signal that the people behind the rules have identified both what the role of the unit is supposed to be in the game (and possbly the lore?)/what their design is supposed to be or do/what sets them apart, and the problems currently keeping them from fulfilling that purpose. And they have made exactly the changes I considered to have been needed (and, honestly, more than I could hope for).
My point here is; All the changes we hav eseen to the Incubi have been great, both for their mechanical worth, and for how they are supposed to feel on the battlefield.
We have only seen good things, and that makes it reasonable to believe more such good things are coming.


What I think is the root of your negative view (other than the, well founded, fear addressed in the beginning of this text), is that you seem to mistake "all that we know about the upcoming codex" with "all that there is to know about the upcoming codex".
It's really hard to draw any well founded, reasonable, conclusion with as little information as we have at this point.
But the bright side is; all we know looks very promising=)

GW have already said that Codex Drukhari has had a "ground-up" rework.
On the preview streams they've talked about it having major changes.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Yeah, so where does that leave us? Lets look at the change we know. Incubi.
They made them 2+ to hit, which the Klaivex always had, and the entire dark Eldar army had at turn 3 anyway. So what would you call that? Table crumbs? I think that is a fair assessment, going around bragging that Incubi now hit on turn 1 as well as they hit on turn 3 (and lets be realistic here, how many turn 1 combats do incubi have? None.) so we got 1 extra turn of +1 to hit. That is the reality. Saying Incubi hit on 2+ now! like it is some amazing gift is laughable.  As Christmas presents go, you just got an ugly sweater, and have to smile at your Aunt Gladys and thank her for the hideous thing.

Incubi now do 2 wounds! How awesome is that?
Well, since you asked, not really that awesome. It will help with fighting vehicles and the like, but against the mainstay of 40K, the Marines, we did not gain a single thing we did not already have.
Before, Incubi killed marines with every wound that was unsaved.  then marines went to 2 wounds. So Incubi, as of now, would kill marines with every unsaved wound.
wait a second.
That is the same thing! At least offensively.
So lets see what Incubi got defensively.
Like the marines, they too got 2 wounds to help protect them from bolter and small arms fire, so that is a good thing.
Wait. What? They are still 1 wound, and will die in droves to lasgun fire?
Ok, so they "GAVE" Incubi the exact same ability they had before, being able to kill most marines in hand to hand. But they did not increase the survivability of them one bit. Marines kill Incubi just as easy as before, easier if they are using a heavy bolter, as the FNP will not work unless you roll boxcars, and they made marines much harder to kill.
And they wrapped this giant turd sandwich in a pretty bow and gave it to us as a gift.

I completely disagree on the Incubi. Dealing two damage gives them an actual role in our codex and this is actually what I wanted since 8th. Now, they are the perfect glass-cannon assassins and will butcher HQs, light vehicles and heavy infantry. And with S5 they finally get their wounds more reliably.

While I'm not completely optimistic like ursvamp, I think there is reasonable hope that this isn't 7th edition all over again.

ursvamp wrote:

I might be forgetting one or two. But the point is we do not know the reason why the factions in a battlebox are chosen (more often then not they are released in some proximity to a codex release of one, or both, of the related factions, though). More likely than not drukhari was chosen for this one simply because it was their turn, or because they wantet to highlight an upcoming 'Dex/release.
In none of the other instances has a box release of this sort had any negative connotations on the armies featured

You forgot Blood of the Phoenix and the rules in Phoenix Rising for Drukhari were a perfect example of least effort. Ignoring that book and not expecting the possibility of GW repeating that directly with the codex is to speak with a proverb: fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I hope still for more, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the codex will be not that great, just okay to get us halfhearted into 9th.

Koldan wrote:

Phoenix Rising for Drukhari were a perfect example of least effort.

I hope still for more, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the codex will be not that great, just okay to get us halfhearted into 9th.

So much this. Dark Eldar were without a doubt the codex that would require the least effort to satiate the Xenos players.

And i fear that is EXACTLY what they did.
the least effort.

Quote :

GW have already said that Codex Drukhari has had a "ground-up" rework.
On the preview streams they've talked about it having major changes.

And GW and playtesters told us, and I will try to quote exactly from my memory "dark Eldar are going to be blindingly fast!"
And the very next codex, and many many after had faster units/vehicles than Dark Eldar.
I am past the "Trusting" stage with Dark Eldar, I am now firmly in the "Show Me" stage.

The level of optimism people maintain for GW is quite staggering, given their track record.

Personally, I think a good indicator lies not in rules but in models.

GW has spent the entirety of 8th and also the beginning of 9th creating an entirely new range for an army that already consisted of new, plastic models. That army got a second codex in 8th, plus swathes of supplements, and also the first new codex in 9th.

Necrons were largely neglected in 8th, though they already had a largely up-to-date line. But in 9th, they got a major release, followed by a quite decent 9th edition codex into the bargain.

Dark Eldar, as I'm sure we can agree, have been completely neglected for at least a decade now. They have lost swathes of wargear, most of their special characters, and even a number of their Elite choices. However, they have received 0 new models, save for remakes of ones they already had (many of which were inferior sculpts to the models they replaced).

So now that GW claims to be turning over a new leaf with regard to Dark Eldar, what new models were we given? One - a remake of a character we already had, which is not only a worse sculpt but looks like someone stuck Jain Zar's hair onto a 3rd edition Catachan guardsman.

I don't think there can be a clearer red flag that GW has absolutely no faith in the DE codex, and no interest or inclination to try and push it in any meaningful way.

I'm sorry but all signs point to Skulnbonz being completely right - as far as GW is concerned, Dark Eldar don't even constitute a proper army. We're just an NPC faction for Marines, Sisters etc. to stomp on to prove how mighty and awsome they are.


Incidentally, I can't help but notice that GW's reveal for DE was new Incubi - which can now kill an upgraded Marine in a single hit! And then their reveal for Death Guard was an ability that hard-counters that. Outstanding.

Squidmaster wrote:

GW have already said that Codex Drukhari has had a "ground-up" rework.
On the preview streams they've talked about it having major changes.

The Games Workshop Marketing Department says a lot of things, a great many of which are disingenuous if not outright dishonest.

I'll believe in this magic, everything-is-better codex when - and only when - I hold it in my hands.

Until that point, I will continue to disbelieve every single word that comes out of the mouths of GW's Marketing Department, save for those backed up by actual leaks from the codex.

Because if they really want me to be optimistic about this new book, then they'll show me the swathes of new options and wargear available to our HQs, and the return of other HQs that don't have models but which we're free to convert outselves.

If you can show me that, I promise to apologise wholeheartedly for my pessimism and mistrust and will be fully on board with the dark kin in 2021.

The death guard ability makes sense they are supposed to be "disgustingly resilient" but I agree that all we have seen so far is "jncubi are cool we swear!" We will have to wait and see what the leaks leading up to the release will be, we will probably get a quick glimpse of Leliths new rules, and a rehash of the incubi rules we've already seen ... and if after that is another build up of rules like what the Phoenix rising was of "you've seen this models rules already but here's another look at it it's cool right?!" Then it'll be another couple years of mediocrity and neglect ... while we will still be competitive but it will be very bland

Archon_91 wrote:

The death guard ability makes sense they are supposed to be "disgustingly resilient"

I get that. It's more the timing aspect that gets me.

The only DE preview we've seen so far is "Look, Incubi do 2 damage now!"

Meanwhile, the Death Guard reveal is one that makes that upgrade redundant before the codex has even been released.

True ... as the incubi are pushed as our main MEQ killers ... the timing on that release still makes it seem like the best way for us to kill anything MEQ is just drown them in antiquated poison and pray that 1/10 of those 100 rounds actually does something

Did I miss anything? I can't recall GW ever implying that Incubi will be "pushed as our main MEQ". I'm fairly certain that Disintegrators will be as good as always against MEQ.

And let's be real, it were Disintegrators which carried much of the DE since the start of 8th. And at S5, Incubi effectively become melee-disintegrators. If we get more weapons with the same profile, the better. And we don't even know the special abilities on the Incubi yet.

Sure, MEQ will be a good target but it makes much more sense to send them against high-value targets. "Look-out Sir" works against Disintegrators, but not against Incubi.

And if we go by the changes to the Reaper, GW's claims of "Higher Damage" does stack up.
GW usually gives good reason to be wary and salty. But the lengths at how some people are trying their hardest to be artificially disappointing is really staggering.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

And if we go by the changes to the Reaper, GW's claims of "Higher Damage" does stack up.

Except they've done the same thing to other similar weapon types, like lascannon for example. If our damage goes up but so does everyone else's then we're no better off than we were before.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Did I miss anything? I can't recall GW ever implying that Incubi will be "pushed as our main MEQ". I'm fairly certain that Disintegrators will be as good as always against MEQ.

Except against Death Guard, obviously.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

And if we go by the changes to the Reaper, GW's claims of "Higher Damage" does stack up.

Except they've done the same thing to other similar weapon types, like lascannon for example. If our damage goes up but so does everyone else's then we're no better off than we were before.

If anything, we're likely worse.

Marines got improved damage *and* improved durability.

Meanwhile, if Incubi set the trend, Dark Eldar will get a damage increase but no durability increase.

So we'll be more glass than ever, yet still no more of a cannon relative to everyone else.

Skulnbonz wrote:

And I know a lot of you don't need another "Gloom and doom" post.

Indeed. No offense intended to any of the more pessimistic posters here, but a large part of the reason why I've stopped visiting this board quite so frequently is the relentless negativity.

We spent the vast majority of 8th edition in an extremely good spot competively, by the standards of most Xenos factions we're actually in a reasonably solid place model-wise, and I'm curious to see if the new book fixes some (or most) of the issues that we identified in the last Codex. Yet it feels like the expectation here is that when the new Codex is released GW will be visiting all of us personally to shoot our dogs.

I'm sorry! One day I hope to be able to write shorter, non-wall-of-text:y posts...
Unfortunately today is not that day!

tl;dr: Resignation and frustration based on history is valid. But we know next to nothing about the upcoming codex, making us unable to make well-founded assumptions, yet.

Koldan wrote:

the rules in Phoenix Rising for Drukhari were a perfect example of least effort.

Well, sure! As I said: ”we have been the recievers of least-effort-codexes before”. I cited the 7e codex as an example, but I didn't mean for it to sound like that was the only time that happened.
My main gripe with the 7e book isn't really all of its flaws, but the the fact that (since it was the current codex when 8e launched) it became the ground work that all rules coming after it was built on/added onto. Which perpetuated those flaws, instead of examining, identifying, and dealing with them.
I like a lot of the things that was added through the 8e codex (and even the Phoenix Rising stuff). But the underlying, flawed, structure on which they rest has been a constant source of sadness. Which came to a head when I read the datasheet that comes with the new incubi-models, and just went ”frak'... really...?” over the lack of change.

That is the point I was making in the post you're quoting: Things have been bad for A While. And it won't get solved without a real, thorough, rework.
The lacklustre way the Incubi was treated in Phoenix, is exactely why they are a good choice for a preview unit; They messed them up last time, but have now fixed it. Indicating both an understanding of the unit, and that reevaluation and effort has occured (to some extent, at the very least)

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Personally, I think a good indicator lies not in rules but in models.

Necrons were largely neglected in 8th, (...) Dark Eldar, have been completely neglected for at least a decade now.

Necrons and Dark Eldar are interesting to compare in this context.
They both recieved large-scale reworks to their lore and model ranges in 5e. Released one year apart (late 2010 for DE, late 2011 for Necrons) and got about the same amount of kits, spread out over three waves of model releases each.
In the time between that and when Psycic Awakening started, drukhari recieved 5 new kits (Voidraven, and plastic versions of archon, succubus, haemonculus, and wracks.), while necrons recieved 3 (Obelisk, Plastic Necron Lord, and a plastic cryptec only availible in a battle box)

I definitely agree that this is a sad pace to get models. And I am very happy that necrons got such a great release in 9e.
But my point is that they were, arguably, worse of than drukhari, in amount of models released (though the necrons have a history of having more powerful rules/codexes).

Soulless Samurai wrote:

So now that GW claims to be turning over a new leaf with regard to Dark Eldar, what new models were we given? One - a remake of a character we already had.

I mean... we haven't been given a single model. Lelith Hesperax isn't released yet, and we know nothing about what models (if any!) will be released along side the codex.
As I understood it, early fears of Lelith being the only model released with our codex was based on the fact that Death Guard will be released with only a single model + a fortification, and that she was the only drukhari model that had been hinted at via the rumour engine. But since we now know that she is being released as part of a battle box, it has become less likely that this is the case. Since such models usually aren't availible on their own for several months after the box's release. Meaning that if she were to be the only new model; either the only new release we get alongside the new codex is a box, 50% of which consists of a different army, or (if the codex is released at a later point than the box) we get no model release, at all, to support it at launch.
Both of which would be unprecedented in 40k*, as far as I know.

(*Excluding 8e, where the books was pushed out with such a blistering pace, due to the drastic change to the rules/system, that accompanying most of them with models was not possible, and getting the books out got priority. Circumstances that are not a factor in 9e, and therefore unlikely.)

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible. GW has definitely done unprecedented things with releases before. It definitely might happen!
But I haven't yet seen a convincing reason for us to believe that it will.
The codex could be as far as four months out, for all we know. So it might still be too early to expect any significant focus or hype for it.

That being said. Adopting a sceptical view of the information we have is totally valid, and understandable, given our history.
Personally I enjoy feeling hopeful when something looks good (which I believe the announced drukhari stuff does). Once everything is out, and we have more concrete things to discuss I'd be more than happy to see people vent about any eventual grievances, or wax happily about the stuff they really enjoy, with the new codex. At the moment there just isn't enough to go on, or draw any substantial conclusions from.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Except they've done the same thing to other similar weapon types, like lascannon for example. If our damage goes up but so does everyone else's then we're no better off than we were before.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

So we'll be more glass than ever, yet still no more of a cannon relative to everyone else.

Good point.
I believe drukhari should get compensated for their fragility with offensive capability. And being scaled up in damage the same amount as everyone else might not do it on its own. I have also had this worry
However I also believe speed and mobility factors in as part of ”offensive capability”, and we have yet to see if there has been any changes and improvements in that department.
We also don't know what, if any, changes have been made to our armywide rules, which might change things up significantly.
And also: I might just be wrong! Maybe scaling us up the same amount relative to other armies will be just enough!

Sadly, that pretty much sums up my expectation of any DE release from GW.

Burnage wrote:

We spent the vast majority of 8th edition in an extremely good spot competively

Sure. But not everyone considers competitiveness to be the major factor as to whether or not a given army/codex is fun.

Let me give you an example. In 7th edition, you could take a Lhamaean as an HQ choice for (IIRC) 15pts.

It has no wargear options, no survivability, and posed no real threat in any phase. However, it let you fill an HQ slot for just 15pts. Given that our HQs in 7th were pretty awful, this was an amazing bargain for a competitive list. It effectively let you skip a tax unit and put more of the 'good stuff' in your army instead.

Of course, if you care about stuff like characters and flavour, then the idea of having a Lhamaean as your sole leader is deeply unappealing, regardless of how efficient or competitive it is.

The entire 8th edition codex feels like the Lhamaean-leader situation in 7th. Efficient and competitive, but completely lacking in options, character and flavour.

If all you're interested in is competitiveness, then I'm sure the 9th edition book will be an outstanding piece of work for you, as it will almost certainly be the 8th edition book with a few minor tweaks. However, for people like me who are more interested in other aspects, I fear it will have to meet a rather different standard to be considered a good book.

Not saying you shouldn't like it if it suits you, just trying to explain that not everyone judges books from a purely competitive lens.

Yep, 5th was the most fun for me b.c it was really fun and it wasn't competitive but I could still win games.

Competitive top 3 is not the go to, we want fun and the ability to win or fail b.c we played well or bad.

I don't really see the 8e book as being truly competitive if I'm honest. It started out okay but rule changes, FAQ's and codex creep soon saw us slide back to mid-table at best. When was the last time you saw a mostly Drukhari army win any significant tournament?

I think, if i remember the biggest was the Alamo GT in 2018 when it was like lots of DE players, which took 1st and 2nd. But that was before Ro3 and it was 6 Ravagers with Venom spam.

But no other Major GT if I can remember (Nova, Adeptican, Bay, LVO, etc.. etc..)

EDIT: Now, Normal GT's, we have won a bit. But NOTHING compare to CWE, Marines, and Daemons. Tau and even Knights won more GT's than us.

So over all, no we never have been that competitive in 8th

amishprn86 wrote:

So over all, no we never have been that competitive in 8th

Strong, strong disagree. We were making very frequent appearances in the top 3 of GTs for about a year after our Codex was released (roughly until the Doom/Jinx nerf, but a little after that as well). We weren't overpowered but that falls well within my definition of competitive.

The book 100% fell behind the power curve with the release of the second Space Marine Codex, but, well, that was also true for the vast majority of factions in the game. Even in 9th we're apparently faring better than Craftworlders are, though neither of us are in the best place currently.

I was going by the numbers of GT wins. If you look at the over all numbers we are in the middle.

After seeing the love that Necrons got, I think GW has proven that they CAN give the fans what they want. Necrons got lots of leaks leading up to their release, which Dark Eldar have not (so I dont think we will get the new models they got).

Still, I am very hopeful that we get a new Drukhari codex in the next 2 weeks, and it puts us in line with Necrons. Later power creep will mean we all need to buy "Unlabeled 9th Edition Supliment" in 1.5 years to bring us back up to speed, but that is just the game cycle these days.

Not much longer to wait boys, then we will know for sure. My local GW guy was hinting we may get a codex as early as next week

Not much longer to wait boys, then we will know for sure. My local GW guy was hinting we may get a codex as early as next week [/quote]


You better not get me all excited like that for nothing lol just kiding!
damn i can't wait to have my hands on this beautiful book
And i can't wait to have real conversations about actual facts instead of knowing what the guts of everyone is telling them....