Splintermind reactions

fisheyes wrote:

Just out of curiosity, how many of us played during the dark days of 7th edition Ally nonsense? I vividly remember Taudar mixes of tripple-riptide wings backed up by eldar scattbikes, all buffed with farseer psychic powers. It was not a fun time, and the community largely hated it (from what I recall).

I much prefer this current Ally system. Allows for fluffy players to mix their Space Elf factions, while stopping competitive players from cherry picking the bestest best units from a half dozen books.

That's my $0.02 anyway. Surprised that I seem to be in the minority

I also prefer the current system. I think I already wrote it here or in other thread, I like mono codex armies. The only two exceptions for me are Harlequins and Knights. Especially the later are in my opinion pretty boring to play against, if they are mono codex and both feel wrong to me without allies, but I think that is mostly personal taste.

I also don't play Ynnari, the comment above was just for people that play them, I thought it was an interesting information for them that it looks like GW is painting a Ynnari army.

Alright, glad that I am not the only one confused by this hatred of the current mono-faction focus.

I personally think 9th is the best edition of the game yet. The most ballanced (remember Scatter bikes?!), the most updated (remember going whole editions without a Codex?), quickly FAQ'ed edition by GW.

Of course that is just my opinion, and you guys are entitled to yours. Just want to put a calming voice out into the void (hopefully it is not taken as a sign of weakness, any assasination attemps will be dealt with harshly )

I messed around with mixing codexes in 6th and 7th, it was the only way to stay competitive. But I hated it and sold off my Tau, Necrons, Space Marines, and Orks. I didn't really play much 7th, I was pretty anti-GW after they blew up Warhammer Fantasy and replaced it with AoS.

I came back around in 8th, I messed around with a mix of harlies and drukhari but I definitely prefer mono-faction as well.

I missed all of 7th edition because I was fully on the Horus Heresy train, and any time I wandered through the 40k hall at events, I didnt even recognize the armies.
And I agree, I like my codex to be my codex, and not have to consider 100 other things. And as I said before, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Knights are all in the “maybe you see one squad allied in” category in my head.
That’s why I want there to be a Codex:Ynnari with it’s own set of options and visual style and everything. I just don’t hold out much hope for it.

I bought so much junk in 7th to try and stay competitve. Was playing Ultramarines for the most part and bought all the Centurions and Bikes I could. Ugly models that barely/never see the tabletop anymore.

I really like the internal balance of this codex. There are some AMAZING units that we will all be running, but there are still a lot of middle-of-the-road units that should keep us from just doing 1-2 builds

I've been thinking a bit more about what units aren't as reliant on PfP and make good candidates in an allied list.

WWP Wyches- Have a 6+ invulnerable and don't rely on Advance and Charge on turn 2.
Beasts- Don't have PfP.
Mandrakes- Have a 5+ invulnerable and don't Advance on redeployment.
Scourges- Have a 5+ invulnerable and shouldn't ever be charging.

I think I can work with this, my Grotesque models are interchangeable with Clawed Fiends and my Talos models are interchangeable with Wraithlords. That lets me use all my fave conversions and continue to run my support weapons, Wraithknight, Rangers, and Yncarne.

Ravager spearheads probably make good allies, they still get a 5++ vs shooting.

Oaka wrote:

I've been thinking a bit more about what units aren't as reliant on PfP and make good candidates in an allied list.

WWP Wyches- Have a 6+ invulnerable and don't rely on Advance and Charge on turn 2.
Beasts- Don't have PfP.
Mandrakes- Have a 5+ invulnerable and don't Advance on redeployment.
Scourges- Have a 5+ invulnerable and shouldn't ever be charging.

I would add:

-Incubi. They already hit on 2+ and their save will often be better than 6++ and will often die before the 5++ becomes situationally relevant.

-Blood Brides. They already hit on 2+, and have 6++/4++ built in.

-Red Grief wyches. Their re-roll charges largely compensates for not having Adv+Charge and they already have 6++/4++

-All vehicles. The PfP benefits are nice but don't change their capabilities drastically

-Beasts. They don't use it anyway

Remember that PfP grants advance+charge which is huge for any assault unit.

Cerve wrote:

Remember that PfP grants advance+charge which is huge for any assault unit.

If you read my reasoning for Red Grief wyches, it's quite clear that I remember that.

Advance and charge is nice, but not mandatory for getting an assault unit where it needs to go. There are certainly downsides to using these units outside of a mono-faction list, but they still can have a role. I'm merely trying to illustrate why losing PfP is not a deal breaker for some units.

TBH, I think we are currently able to provide basically all the tricks you want within-faction. Kabals shoot pretty well, Cults punch pretty well, Coven do.... things?

Advance+Charge is pretty damn strong. Marines build whole lists around the ability (at least I have). 3D6 average = 10.5". Reroll charges averages ~ 8.5". The difference is large, but not insurmountable.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

fisheyes wrote:

TBH, I think we are currently able to provide basically all the tricks you want within-faction. Kabals shoot pretty well, Cults punch pretty well, Coven do.... things?

Advance+Charge is pretty damn strong. Marines build whole lists around the ability (at least I have). 3D6 average = 10.5". Reroll charges averages ~ 8.5". The difference is large, but not insurmountable.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

I believe mono-faction is absolutely the way to go as well right now. But since we are the first Aeldari book of 9th edition it will be worth re-evaluating as the others come out.

For instance, if harlequins are keeping adv+charge through Rising Crescendo, it is less imperative that Drukhari allies have it as well. They might be more interested in Raiders full of kabalites who barely use PfP at all.

sekac wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

TBH, I think we are currently able to provide basically all the tricks you want within-faction. Kabals shoot pretty well, Cults punch pretty well, Coven do.... things?

Advance+Charge is pretty damn strong. Marines build whole lists around the ability (at least I have). 3D6 average = 10.5". Reroll charges averages ~ 8.5". The difference is large, but not insurmountable.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

I believe mono-faction is absolutely the way to go as well right now. But since we are the first Aeldari book of 9th edition it will be worth re-evaluating as the others come out.

For instance, if harlequins are keeping adv+charge through Rising Crescendo, it is less imperative that Drukhari allies have it as well. They might be more interested in Raiders full of kabalites who barely use PfP at all.

Though it does also raise the question of what you're using the Harlequins for?

Aside from bringing some psychic powers, it seems like they're not really doing anything that our Wyches can't already do.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

TBH, I think we are currently able to provide basically all the tricks you want within-faction. Kabals shoot pretty well, Cults punch pretty well, Coven do.... things?

Advance+Charge is pretty damn strong. Marines build whole lists around the ability (at least I have). 3D6 average = 10.5". Reroll charges averages ~ 8.5". The difference is large, but not insurmountable.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

I believe mono-faction is absolutely the way to go as well right now. But since we are the first Aeldari book of 9th edition it will be worth re-evaluating as the others come out.

For instance, if harlequins are keeping adv+charge through Rising Crescendo, it is less imperative that Drukhari allies have it as well. They might be more interested in Raiders full of kabalites who barely use PfP at all.

Though it does also raise the question of what you're using the Harlequins for?

Aside from bringing some psychic powers, it seems like they're not really doing anything that our Wyches can't already do.

Again, I'm not even recommending people take mixed faction lists. I think mono-faction is the way to go.

I just believe there is value in compiling a list of units that can still operate pretty effectively without PfP. As 9th edition evolves, it is worth revisiting list building presumptions. Having an idea what can perform without PfP now can help inform list building decisions later.

sekac wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

TBH, I think we are currently able to provide basically all the tricks you want within-faction. Kabals shoot pretty well, Cults punch pretty well, Coven do.... things?

Advance+Charge is pretty damn strong. Marines build whole lists around the ability (at least I have). 3D6 average = 10.5". Reroll charges averages ~ 8.5". The difference is large, but not insurmountable.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.

I believe mono-faction is absolutely the way to go as well right now. But since we are the first Aeldari book of 9th edition it will be worth re-evaluating as the others come out.

For instance, if harlequins are keeping adv+charge through Rising Crescendo, it is less imperative that Drukhari allies have it as well. They might be more interested in Raiders full of kabalites who barely use PfP at all.

Though it does also raise the question of what you're using the Harlequins for?

Aside from bringing some psychic powers, it seems like they're not really doing anything that our Wyches can't already do.

Again, I'm not even recommending people take mixed faction lists. I think mono-faction is the way to go.

I just believe there is value in compiling a list of units that can still operate pretty effectively without PfP. As 9th edition evolves, it is worth revisiting list building presumptions. Having an idea what can perform without PfP now can help inform list building decisions later.

Oh, that's perfectly fair.

I was just musing on whether DE 'need' Harlequins at the moment or whether we can replicate their strengths well enough in our own book.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Oh, that's perfectly fair.

I was just musing on whether DE 'need' Harlequins at the moment or whether we can replicate their strengths well enough in our own book.

Right now, absolutely not. They technically offer some things wyches don't; moving/charging over terrain and models, built-in fall back and charge, powerful shooting, and a more robust and customizable selection of combat weapons.

But several of those advantage are fairly niche in the first place, we can approximate some those attributes with strats, can more than compensate for their single data sheet flexibility with a much wider range of datasheets, and the cost savings between wyches and properly tooled troupes makes it somewhat of a non-starter at this point.

Hell, even a properly equipped Succubus makes a Darkness Bite, Twilight Fang troupe master look like a chump. He can flip around all nimbly-bimbly but she'll take him down on dice almost every time.

I do have to wonder what they'll do to make harlies compete with wych cults, because right now, mono-faction Drukhari appear to be simply better. No good reason to lose PfP for them.

Full tangent: I've got my fingers crossed for a Harlequin rule for a specialized detachment than can be added to other Aeldari without losing mono-faction benefits. Something like a half-patrol. 1 HQ (no more, no less), 1-2 Troupes, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 FA, 0-1 HS.

Allow them to be the emissaries of the Eldar as they have always been, but without freedom to fully mix w/o cost.

I am not a big fan of splintermind's takes here. Honestly I thought GW did a great job on the codex overall. Everything in the codex seems viable now and I dont think we have any outright bad units anymore like we did in 8th edition.

Also some people probably hate the fact that we lose rules now for mixing with eldar but I'm completely fine with that. I think we will see a lot more rules change to discourage playing soup armies. I'm expecting ad mech's canticles rule to be similar to power from pain where they lose it when they soup (with maybe a thing that let's them take imperial knights as an exception of some sort). I think harlequins fit in there too if aeldari armies can take them as allies somehow with restrictions of course, could be like including an inquisitor for imperium or something along those lines.

Also to reply to the above post, I think if wych cults make harlequins look weak then it's a problem with us being overpowered rather than harlequins being weak, as harlequins have been a top 3 faction im the meta for a while now.

I'll start by saying I always like listening to the podcast been listening to it since maybe 5th edition has been it around that long? But if you ever wanted to know what you'd sound like in X amount of years of playing an under supported faction like DE and watching the tabletop pass you by, they are it. I think my favorite part was Brian's sighs before reading so many rules, I'd love to put a supercut together of all of them ha.

I think there's only so much "but the book is really good" you can say before the salt that preceded that comment completely smothers it. As much as I like listening to their takes over the years and I probably wouldn't mind hanging out or talking with them about 40K, I don't know that I'd ever want to actually play against them. After all these years I wonder if they still genuinely have fun with the game.

Towards the end of the 2nd review episode I think Alex said something about wishing they had just kept 8th edition rules with with some point changes. I'd be willing to bet a nickel that if you went back to the 8th edition review there would have been a similar take waxing the 7th edition codex.

This isn't to say that some of their criticism was invalid, there were some good points. I assume there's some context we don't have of the conversations they had with GW when playtesting.

But I think in general, a large trait among 40K players that they want to see every one of their rules as auto-take and viable in every situation.

It's kinda like when my wife decide on ordering dinner:
"How about X?"
"I don't want X"
"Ok what do you want then?"
"I don't know, but not X"
"What about Y?"
"No, not Y either"

KiriONE wrote:

Towards the end of the 2nd review episode I think Alex said something about wishing they had just kept 8th edition rules with with some point changes. I'd be willing to bet a nickel that if you went back to the 8th edition review there would have been a similar take waxing the 7th edition codex.

Trust me, nobody wants to go back to the 7e codex!

I remember being told by a guy in my play group after the 7th ed codex had come out that I wasn't allowed to complain about it, after all DE still had dark lances and they needed to go up in cost, so everything we had lost in that codex was justified because dark lances still existed ...

You’ll get no argument from me that Brian and Alex seemed to go overboard in their knee jerk, overly negative reaction.  But to their credit if you reach out to them on Facebook or Patreon, they’ll engage with you and admit that they overreacted.  Some context here is important.  

Brian is primarily a Covens player. Alex is primarily a CWE/mixed Aeldari/Harlequins player.  By Brian’s  own admission, the Wych Cults are not his cup of tea and don’t seem to interest him (his terse dismissal of Hellions was a good example of this).  And I think we can all agree, Covens, have changed drastically.  You can call it a nerf, but I just think it’s a fundamental revision to their role in the army.  While Wyches are now arguably the strongest, most vital faction in the codex.  So he saw his favorite part of the book downgraded substantially while the part he doesn’t seem to have much interest in bet boosted.  So, I think his negative reaction makes a little more sense, because his favorite part of the army changed significantly and not necessarily for the better.  

Additionally, as play testers, they are in the unique position of knowing what play tester feedback GW ignored or toned down.  I’ve listened to their review episodes twice now, and the subtext seems to be a lot frustration and some significant disagreements between GW and the Splintermind guys over rules feedback and design philosophy in the new codex.

Unfortunately, due to NDAs, we’ll never really know the back and forth that went on during play testing.  However, it’s instructive to listen to how incredibly positive they were about the 8th edition codex (and rightly so, it was a great book when it was released). My theory is that GW incorporated more of their feedback into the 8th edition codex.  And it showed because Covens, really PoF, were arguably the strongest part of the book.  But for whatever reason, GW decided to go away from the 8th edition design philosophy for the new book and instead of the 8th 2.0 that Brian and Alex clearly preferred, they did a radical revamp of the whole army and it’s play style.

So, I say all of this to say, that while I think they were off the mark in their initial reactions, they have a unique perspective and unfortunately will never really be able to explain the in depth reasons for why they reacted that way due the NDA they’re bound by.  And to their credit, they were right about the Succubus and DT Liquifiers and that it would be a strong book that you’ll win more games with.   Plus, they’ve given our community years of great DE content that I personally have always enjoyed.  I look forward to listening to their future episodes when they’ve had time to reflect on and re-assess their initial impressions.

I'd had a more than enough of their 'unique perspective' before the codex; there is only so much of their strawmanning of "toxic, ungrateful Drukhari fans" that I was prepared to pay to listen to.

They should have been nowhere near a role playtesting, if someone like Skari was not.

sweetbacon wrote:

You’ll get no argument from me that Brian and Alex seemed to go overboard in their knee jerk, overly negative reaction.  But to their credit if you reach out to them on Facebook or Patreon, they’ll engage with you and admit that they overreacted.  Some context here is important.  

Brian is primarily a Covens player. Alex is primarily a CWE/mixed Aeldari/Harlequins player.  By Brian’s  own admission, the Wych Cults are not his cup of tea and don’t seem to interest him (his terse dismissal of Hellions was a good example of this).  And I think we can all agree, Covens, have changed drastically.  You can call it a nerf, but I just think it’s a fundamental revision to their role in the army.  While Wyches are now arguably the strongest, most vital faction in the codex.  So he saw his favorite part of the book downgraded substantially while the part he doesn’t seem to have much interest in bet boosted.  So, I think his negative reaction makes a little more sense, because his favorite part of the army changed significantly and not necessarily for the better.  

Additionally, as play testers, they are in the unique position of knowing what play tester feedback GW ignored or toned down.  I’ve listened to their review episodes twice now, and the subtext seems to be a lot frustration and some significant disagreements between GW and the Splintermind guys over rules feedback and design philosophy in the new codex.

Unfortunately, due to NDAs, we’ll never really know the back and forth that went on during play testing.  However, it’s instructive to listen to how incredibly positive they were about the 8th edition codex (and rightly so, it was a great book when it was released). My theory is that GW incorporated more of their feedback into the 8th edition codex.  And it showed because Covens, really PoF, were arguably the strongest part of the book.  But for whatever reason, GW decided to go away from the 8th edition design philosophy for the new book and instead of the 8th 2.0 that Brian and Alex clearly preferred, they did a radical revamp of the whole army and it’s play style.

So, I say all of this to say, that while I think they were off the mark in their initial reactions, they have a unique perspective and unfortunately will never really be able to explain the in depth reasons for why they reacted that way due the NDA they’re bound by.  And to their credit, they were right about the Succubus and DT Liquifiers and that it would be a strong book that you’ll win more games with.   Plus, they’ve given our community years of great DE content that I personally have always enjoyed.  I look forward to listening to their future episodes when they’ve had time to reflect on and re-assess their initial impressions.

I did a lot of playtesting for Fantasy Flight for the various 40k RPGs. It can be a really rewarding experience, but it can also be incredibly frustrating. A couple of times I found myself in the position where I spent a long time playtesting, writing reports, making suggestions that I felt were iron clad, only to find out they were on a totally different page than me/us. That kind of process can really steal the thunder out of the final product for you.
The other thing that could have happened is they know how good all the other books coming out are and/or all the awesome stuff that got cut from this one.

Ripper.McGuirl wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

You’ll get no argument from me that Brian and Alex seemed to go overboard in their knee jerk, overly negative reaction.  But to their credit if you reach out to them on Facebook or Patreon, they’ll engage with you and admit that they overreacted.  Some context here is important.  

Brian is primarily a Covens player. Alex is primarily a CWE/mixed Aeldari/Harlequins player.  By Brian’s  own admission, the Wych Cults are not his cup of tea and don’t seem to interest him (his terse dismissal of Hellions was a good example of this).  And I think we can all agree, Covens, have changed drastically.  You can call it a nerf, but I just think it’s a fundamental revision to their role in the army.  While Wyches are now arguably the strongest, most vital faction in the codex.  So he saw his favorite part of the book downgraded substantially while the part he doesn’t seem to have much interest in bet boosted.  So, I think his negative reaction makes a little more sense, because his favorite part of the army changed significantly and not necessarily for the better.  

Additionally, as play testers, they are in the unique position of knowing what play tester feedback GW ignored or toned down.  I’ve listened to their review episodes twice now, and the subtext seems to be a lot frustration and some significant disagreements between GW and the Splintermind guys over rules feedback and design philosophy in the new codex.

Unfortunately, due to NDAs, we’ll never really know the back and forth that went on during play testing.  However, it’s instructive to listen to how incredibly positive they were about the 8th edition codex (and rightly so, it was a great book when it was released). My theory is that GW incorporated more of their feedback into the 8th edition codex.  And it showed because Covens, really PoF, were arguably the strongest part of the book.  But for whatever reason, GW decided to go away from the 8th edition design philosophy for the new book and instead of the 8th 2.0 that Brian and Alex clearly preferred, they did a radical revamp of the whole army and it’s play style.

So, I say all of this to say, that while I think they were off the mark in their initial reactions, they have a unique perspective and unfortunately will never really be able to explain the in depth reasons for why they reacted that way due the NDA they’re bound by.  And to their credit, they were right about the Succubus and DT Liquifiers and that it would be a strong book that you’ll win more games with.   Plus, they’ve given our community years of great DE content that I personally have always enjoyed.  I look forward to listening to their future episodes when they’ve had time to reflect on and re-assess their initial impressions.

I did a lot of playtesting for Fantasy Flight for the various 40k RPGs. It can be a really rewarding experience, but it can also be incredibly frustrating. A couple of times I found myself in the position where I spent a long time playtesting, writing reports, making suggestions that I felt were iron clad, only to find out they were on a totally different page than me/us. That kind of process can really steal the thunder out of the final product for you.
The other thing that could have happened is they know how good all the other books coming out are and/or all the awesome stuff that got cut from this one.

That’s a great point.  They know where the meta will be in six months to a year.  Their frustration could very well be that they think their input to help DE keep pace with the upcoming books was not listened to by GW.  GW’s track record of codex creep making early edition codexes obsolete within a year is undeniable.  We’re already starting to see it with (shockingly)  Space Marines.  Look at recent event standings.  Outside of DA and the odd WS or BA, very few SM armies are placing top three in larger events these days.  For as much wailing and nashing of teeth as there was last summer over Eradicators and BGV (both are still excellent and undercosted IMHO), they’re already starting to lag behind Necrons, DG, DA, and now DE.  And Ad Mech (the scariest army in the game for my money) and Sisters (the best army in the game) are both set to get even better judging by early previews of Ad Mech weapon stats.  Which will probably knock some of the wind out of our space sails and push those earlier codexes down a little further as well.

sweetbacon wrote:

Brian is primarily a Covens player. Alex is primarily a CWE/mixed Aeldari/Harlequins player.  By Brian’s  own admission, the Wych Cults are not his cup of tea and don’t seem to interest him (his terse dismissal of Hellions was a good example of this).  And I think we can all agree, Covens, have changed drastically.  You can call it a nerf, but I just think it’s a fundamental revision to their role in the army.  While Wyches are now arguably the strongest, most vital faction in the codex.  So he saw his favorite part of the book downgraded substantially while the part he doesn’t seem to have much interest in bet boosted.  So, I think his negative reaction makes a little more sense, because his favorite part of the army changed significantly and not necessarily for the better.  

The only thing the Covens really lost was the PoF, black cornucopians gimmick. Well that and sniping Reapers. Neither of which strike me as a concern for a mostly casual player, as Brian claims to be. Beyond that, covens are better than they were, IMO. Artists of the Flesh grotesques and Talos are as tough or tougher than PoF against a lot of weapons, and DT liquifiers are bonkers good. I honestly think 60 point wracks with 2 liquifiers are the best troop unit, point for point in the codex. Hell, even 20 blobs of Dark Artisan wracks with a hexrifle and 4x ossefactors makes a great utility unit for holding objectives, sniping characters, and ripping up light infantry.

Covens definitely got re-imagined, but if Brian was interested in writing lists that weren't "Take PoF and don't think about it twice" then he should be very pleased. Oh yeah, haemonculi are boring now so that's a bit of a drawback too, but they have decent utility if going heavy on covens.

Alex's army design is screwed though, at least until we see how Ynnari works.