Cheap scoring units maxed out in army list

Hey,

So I've had a thought and wanted to put it out for discussion - what if, say for a 2k Tournament list, we max out our troop slots with the cheapest unit possible.

That would be 3 Wracks. Now, useless on their own, but if loaded in Venoms, that would give us 6 scoring Venoms totalling less that 600pts also giving us 72 poisoned shots. More than 3x 10 man Warrior squads rapid firing......

That then give us more than 1400 points to really go sick on the rest of the army. The main problem I initially see is that when a Venom goes down, the troops will more than likely go with it. But on the other side of the coin, our opponent is faced with Ravagers, Incubi, Hellions, Razorwings etc to keep him busy, maybe they would see the Venoms as low priority.........

I shudder to think how that list would do in a kill point mission...I'm not a fan of the MSU army build.

MSU Wracks on anything is still ok idea, I personally have done 3x 3 Wracks on X Transport for awhile with good success. They don't die when it dies due to T4 and FNP, keep that in mind.

But given you can find unmatched cost-efficiency in our Troops, I don't think the Troops should all be such MSU Wracks.

Smurfy wrote:

They don't die when it dies due to T4 and FNP

These are 2 more reasons why I'm thinking its viable.

I guess it all comes down to play-style.

Oh, and the rest of the 2K army easily includes

Haemie (of course)
Archon

7 Incubi in Raider
2x 4 man Trueborn in Venoms

6x 3 man Wracks in Venoms

6 Reavers

3x Ravs or 2x Ravs 1x Razorwing

So we're getting Ravager, Reaver and Trueborn AT and also a killy Incubi unit

Still having the main problem with many DE armies in that setup - only 5 targets for tanks to worry about a ton. Reavers get shot down easy when they slow down to fire, the Trueborn and Ravagers are usually on top of the enemy's TP list if they're smart.

Better to get as much anti-tank as possible to make up for it, which is why I still stand by the 5 man Blaster, Blast Pistol Warrior units often. And is why I'm considering larger Wych units

They'll handle exploding Raiders fine.

I see no reason this doesn't work - Venom spam is a common tactic. You'll probably need to go hyper aggressive getting anti-mech shooting into the build since you won't have the handy Blasters on Warriors, but otherwise it looks fine.

Venomspam is a common, but dying tactic in an environment filled with Mech armies. Much better to go Raiderspam or mix, IMO. Either way, I go more Raiders than Venoms always, due to Tank Shock and -1 Ld (TGLs) breaking many super units has never been so easy.

Yeah thats 1 way to do it I guess....


The current AT may be an issue, esp as only the Rav's are firing Turn 1. But the pressure builds on Turn 2 as the TB, Reavers and remaining Rav's all can potentially fire. Given the rough list above, swapping the Razowring for a 3rd Ravager too, we have:

10 DL's
8 Blasters
2 Heat Lances

I could swap the Incubi for a 3rd 4 man Truborn Blaster squad, dropping the Archon and adding 2 more Haemies. That would give me 1 less DL and 4 more Blasters and 3 Str 3 squads FC, getting rerolls on the charge vs T4 at least....but I don't see 3 Wracks and 1 Haemie doing too much damage LOL


As for comparisons, running 6 troop Venoms out shoots Warriors (both Raiders and Venoms) at the same points build (570) and being at safe range too. Sure we lack a couple Blasters, but you still have to get close to use them.

Obviously we lack CC but the Incubi are there to mop up anything that strays too far.

Another bonus is that Turn 4 and Turn 5 we can Turbo-Boost towards obj (whether contesting or holding) and still getting cover saves on our way there.

I'm gonna try it out over the coming weeks and report on how it goes, before getting another 4 Venoms.....

3 man wracks in a dual cannon venom work fine. My biggest problem is at 2k we really dont need to save the points. you are only saving 180 points worth for switching your 6 troop choices from 5 man warrior squads w/ blaster to 3 man wrack squads. That is what... one FA choice,??? And you lose 6 blasters... In a 2k list you can easily fit an HQ, 3 elite, 6 troops, 2 FA, and 3 HS no problem if you know what you are doing.

But try it out and see if it works for you. Your biggest problem is going to be AT, but I think you already know that.

Smurfy wrote:

Still having the main problem with many DE armies in that setup - only 5 targets for tanks to worry about a ton. Reavers get shot down easy when they slow down to fire, the Trueborn and Ravagers are usually on top of the enemy's TP list if they're smart.

How do reavers get shot down easily??? They are T4 (which is huge in our army) and have the eldar jetbike move, and skilled riders. T4 with a 4++ (and maybe FNP from drugs) is tough to move unless you focus on them. If they do that though, thats less fire going at your tanks. Also if the opponent really wants to move them, that means they gotta get out of their metal boxes and come DT those reavers... and guess what your venoms get to chew on next turn

You go in for a melta kill and you die to return fire or a counter-charge at that point. Really, nothing bad about what they do, just about a Tactical Squad's of points is not worth just 2 melta shots and dying potentially in the grand scheme of things. If you have FNP that's different, but how often do you get it? 1/6 of the time unless you have Duke? So we're entirely reliant on a dice roll to determine if they're good? Or we're upgrading them with a Haemmie, which is better but you don't see this because he's better off on Wychs or something else in many lists I use/seen.

I say that all the time regarding Difficult Terrain+Blocking but somehow that's not good but now that's good in this instance? Ironies But the difference here? If you don't have FNP you're Marines if you stick to Cover (Which is always gonna be around?) or you're shot down.

Sorry if I'm being blunt but that's how it is. I still USE them but doesn't save them from being any better for us.

to each their own I guess. Ive fallen in love with reavers as they are the best answer against the ever abusive Wardian codexs. There is a reason the Imperium runs around with metaguns, and Ill give you a hit... its not the 2d6 pen

and how exactly are your reavers getting counter-charged??? 9" shot for the 2d6 + 6" Eldar Jetbike move = 15". Unless they are rocking fleet troops (no marine is, and anything that is should be very... very... very much avoided)

and whats wrong with being marines in cover??? Marines statline is what this game is based off of, and for a reason. They are reliable to surivive alot of things, and is why they are the golden child of the game. They are easy to pick up and play.

As for cover always being around. Ofc it is, remember blown up tanks are cover But seriously you blow up a tank (or wreck it, still is terrain now) and just use it as a stepping stone. Most MSU style armies hug cover like its out of style these days anyway.

But again to each their own. I will admit to use reavers properly it takes skill and a good eye for measurements, but I still think that other than maybe beastmasters, we have nothing better in our FA slot.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

and how exactly are your reavers getting counter-charged??? 9" shot for the 2d6 + 6" Eldar Jetbike move = 15". Unless they are rocking fleet troops (no marine is, and anything that is should be very... very... very much avoided)

Marines have a possible 15" threat range coming out of a wreck - even presuming your RJBs were laser perfect in being 9" away when shooting, which rarely happens.

Also, there is hardly a specific need for the unit countercharging to be the one that was in the vehicle that was wrecked. RJBs can move fast enough to limit countercharges - but they're not fast enough to deny them.

Reavers have 3++turbo cover save. It all comes down being a turn ahead when using these guys.

Get as far down as you can, hide behind cover, then the next move you have 12" to move to within 9" AND u get a 6" assault jump. So ideally you want to move only 6" to be within double dice range, and then safely hope back behind cover......or if you've immobilised a tank (with no sponsons) you could jump behind him......as long as there isn't much else to you of course...

Still 15" range like Thor pointed out. This is what happens -

You turbo into good hiding position, threatening to melta.

Enemy mechspam player goes "meh" and let's you kill 1 of his 12 razors/chims/rhinos, angry occupants get out probably unharmed, just how damage results against guys in vehicles are, sadly. "Oh no, I lost 1 of my many transports, I SOOOO care"

You hop back trying to be "smart" and get the Cover Save.

He retaliates with either the angry squad that lost their shell or the other stuff around them wipes out the silly Reavers with a 4+ Save, which still by all means is sub-par.

Like I said though, it's what we have to work with, it's just not satisfactory IMO when Imperial/SM armies can do the same thing and don't usually die so easy in return due to Power Armour/More numbers for less points.

Smurfy wrote:

He retaliates with either the angry squad that lost their shell or the other stuff around them wipes out the silly Reavers with a 4+ Save, which still by all means is sub-par.

and what are your venoms doing??? not shooting the 5 guys that pop out of his MSU razorback???

but we can go on and on about reavers, but thats not the point of this thread. Actually will start a reavers discussion tomorrow when I head to work... just too late to think atm

I think it depends on how you run the army and more importantly what army you face.

In a tournament setting you will probably wind up in the middle of the pack. Once you get to the higher levels, the better mech players will eliminate your threats first and pretty much ignore the venoms for the late game. Its what I would do.

Still, the setting is going to be the deciding factor. The down side to the cheap troops is they are only good vs infantry, anything that is mech will be untouchable. If you take all wracks as troops, you also lose access to wyches with haywire grenades.

Either way, both sides have a valid arguments, but I feel this really does'nt work, competitively, but in a friendly game or better yet, in APOC, it could be a devastating build.

my 2 pain tokens

Thor665 wrote:

Marines have a possible 15" threat range coming out of a wreck - even presuming your RJBs were laser perfect in being 9" away when shooting, which rarely happens.

Very true, a definite weakness, killer even to those of us born without hawk eyes. Anyways. I've found the 6-man HL Reaver squad still well worth the investment... provided I prioritised non-transports with them. This also allows the Ravagers to hang further back and stick to transport-busting duties.

I will point out that if your in terrian, they need to roll a 6 to assault you... its possible, just highly unlikely. so that does give you alittle breather room

I agree with GAR in the fact that this army depends on situation. A tough opponent is surely going to be anyone who spams mech well - Guard being the toughest, with mech BA and GK closely behind.

I'm currently looking at other 2k army lists, thinking on not only turn 1 and turn 2 target priority, but also potential deployments and how to seperate me from half of his army.

Annihilation is going to be my undoing, BUT I can reserve all Venoms. 12 KP's in reserve, who can turbo laterally (along my board edge)staying deep, for a save straight off the bat.

Seize ground and table quarters are going to be my strong points. Most tournaments say that only troops can score AND contest - I think I'll be good here, unless opponent targets Venoms first up - or more importantly, if I deploy them wrong and hand him the opportunity.

As for the Wyches with HWG - yes they are awesome, infact best srtat is to stun or immob a tank then your HWG are auto hitting and blowing weapons off all day long, safe from Tank Shock too. Just don't do it against a transport, as the guys inside will jump out and smack you in the face.
My first 2K list from a month ago was all Wyches in Venoms, I think its on page 2. I've only played 3 games so far, 2 vs Tau - damn those Fletchets and 1 vs GK - damn those Psychouts so I guess I'm looking for other ideas.