Are grotesques really that bad?

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bklooste wrote:

The Avatar is I10 and has a lot of AP2 attacks

Since when do DE-players fear MC's? I never did. I would be pleased to shot a overpriced Avatar to pieces turn one.

bklooste wrote:

The Phoenix lords are nearly all I7 ( Ill is I6) and are imune to instant death , most have some sort of Ap2 or > 6 stength 6 attacks.

Besides Karandras (who's just friggin expensive) all the Lords are overpriced and bad too. You did it plain wrong if they get into combat.

bklooste wrote:

Biggest issue is rending on all shurikens which means on a 6 to wounds its AP2.. Not so nice to put wounds on the archon then.. Even worse the S6 spam is still there so S6 shurican cannons which they have a lot of will instant kill you on a 6 to wound.

Can someone tell me the mathematical difference of S6 AP 2 and S6 AP5 shots against a armor value of 5? I honestly can't see one. S6+ shooting is what you always should use lookout sir! on expect under some special circumstances.

This is about the Archon with 4 Grots in a Raider... The attacks dont matter vs Grots they do matter versus an archon with a huskblade.

Which part of "look out sir!" you didn't understand?

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Mech eldar are even more of a pain now but I wouldnt expect to see many phoenix lords outside of maybe karandras. Even then they are a poor imitation of archons IMO.

Avatar I feel is being under appreciated now with 2 melta shots and battle trance+fleet but obviously he sucks against us. Maybe good as an allied HQ though.

Back on grots again, losing their raider is the biggest concern. Otherwise 30" + EAS move means they shouldnt be anywhere near CQC threats to them. Again killing power is not their primary purpose, resilience and fire magnet is although they kill non marines just fine.
I love incubi as much as the next archon but all the latest cover ignoring and S6 weaponry that denies FNP sucks, especially vs tau when markers + iontide = dead incubi unit with no recourse. The above is my meta though pretty much devoid of marines, just the way I like it.

Off topic a little but still pertaining to grots, what yall think of this? in a big battle, Urien, lelith and 3 grots????? Overall toughness 5 and it gives her all her pain tokens, so S4 hits FNP and fearless off the rip!!!! And she should definitely get where she's going. Been trying to find a way to get some use out of her.

Should be great against tau, trend I see is the fire warriors all being 6 inches apart. My grots shrug off almost all the shooting and just terrorize them. Played an 1850 battle, used grots as diversion to keep my venoms alive but they held up surprisingly well and wiped 3 10 man fire warrior squads in 3 turns. AMAZING!!!! I see this lelith combo being a little overkill, but may not be bad against better armored foe. May ensure we wipe units out on opponents turn instead of taking forever back and forth.

I'd say even Urien with a Grots is a bit overkill, throwing there Lelith is giving handicaping the rest of your army.

If you want to make the grots more killy you can run the following.

3 Grots
1 Aberation, venom blade
2 Succubus, haywire, venom blade power axe
Raider

395pts

That gives you 18 T5 wounds, and either a load of venom blade attack, or a load of power axe attacks (for carving through marine units). The haywire is also handy. That being said I prefer keeping grot units cheap, their roll is to draw fire and be a reasonable melee threat, they are not a death star unit.

I have realy high temptation of running archon with huskblade with grots , and abberation with flesh gauntlet + homun. Pretty expansive though.

I personally don't like the flesh gauntlet, but an archon with grots is hilariously fun, I used them a couple days ago and they killed two leman russes and probably 30+ guardsmen in CC and they were still alive end of the game...archon never even took a saving throw