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lelith wrote:

Squidmaster wrote:

MurDok wrote:

Question, since all webway FAQ was thrown out can I have a Wraithknight pop-out of it or a squad of Wraithguard w/ a Spiritseer?  If so then oh my EPIC!

It certainly seems that way.
It would fit in with the Battle Brothers/Using Transports change (though whether it would fit in with other allies is a question - can you imagine a horde of Nid Monstrous Creatures popping out of a Webway Portal?!).

Thanks to MurDok and Squidmaster, I'm seriously considering using the combination of WWP+Wraithknight(+Spiritseer). Although the WK can deep strike as she's a 'jump' monstrous creature, I think it's too risky due to her big body and expensive point. - Imagine roll 1 for the deepstrike mishap!

So my strategy is as follows:
- A venom with a haemy is deployed at the front line (12" from the center line), declares Jink if it gets shot.
- T1, the venom goes 6", the haemy disembarks and runs another 6", opens the WWP.
- T2 (or later if I fail to the reserve roll), the WK pops up from the WWP and bombards enemy with her two S10 AP2 weapons.

Any thought or suggestion?

Another thing to think about might be putting an infiltrator in with the squad in the raider. This would (if I've read the new book correctly) allow you to infiltrate the raider (good if you're going first). You then get another 6+6 move before deploying.

Admittedly it works best in a hammer and anvil style deployment.

Has anyone ever tried this?

Starkadder wrote:

lelith wrote:

Squidmaster wrote:

MurDok wrote:

Question, since all webway FAQ was thrown out can I have a Wraithknight pop-out of it or a squad of Wraithguard w/ a Spiritseer?  If so then oh my EPIC!

It certainly seems that way.
It would fit in with the Battle Brothers/Using Transports change (though whether it would fit in with other allies is a question - can you imagine a horde of Nid Monstrous Creatures popping out of a Webway Portal?!).

Thanks to MurDok and Squidmaster, I'm seriously considering using the combination of WWP+Wraithknight(+Spiritseer). Although the WK can deep strike as she's a 'jump' monstrous creature, I think it's too risky due to her big body and expensive point. - Imagine roll 1 for the deepstrike mishap!

So my strategy is as follows:
- A venom with a haemy is deployed at the front line (12" from the center line), declares Jink if it gets shot.
- T1, the venom goes 6", the haemy disembarks and runs another 6", opens the WWP.
- T2 (or later if I fail to the reserve roll), the WK pops up from the WWP and bombards enemy with her two S10 AP2 weapons.

Any thought or suggestion?

Another thing to think about might be putting an infiltrator in with the squad in the raider.  This would (if I've read the new book correctly) allow you to infiltrate the raider (good if you're going first). You then get another 6+6 move before deploying.

Admittedly it works best in a hammer and anvil style deployment.

Has anyone ever tried this?

Do we have infiltrators??? I guess mandrake are not counted. Cuz they can`t take dedicated transport.

that doesn't work, you deploy infiltrators after the rest of the normal troops are deployed. If it is an IC by the time you go to deploy them in the squad with the raider, the raider has already been deployed and can no longer infiltrate. We do not have infiltrators that can take a DT and the BRB states that only the unit that the DT was purchased for can start the game in the DT

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

From the rulebook:
Infiltrate - "units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last"

"If a unit with infiltrate deploys inside a transport they may infiltrate along with their transport"

Independent character - "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit"

"While an IC is part of a unit he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

"An IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

So it's clear the IC joins a unit before the game begins. Following the infiltrate rule his unit can thus deploy as infiltrators. 'Before the game begins' obviously coming before deployment.

In fact under the 'before the game begins' section in player turns it specifically makes this clear: "you may encounter rules that say an action happens before the game begins...these are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle"

So an IC joins a unit before deployment allowing them to infiltrate. This doesn't fall foul of the rule in the IC section which is specifically the other way round (ie no archon infuriating with mandrakes).

So our unit of wracks plus infiltrating IC can infiltrate in their dedicated transport (as per infiltrators rule).

The IC is always counted as a member of that unit for rules purposes, so there seems to be no reason why it wouldn't work. Actually the wording of the infiltrate rule itself 'units that contain at least one model' seems to anticipate it.

...unless I've missed something big. Sorry for lack of page numbers - using an ePub version.

In addition, from be DT rules: "when deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any IC's that have joined it). "

Infiltrating Raiders here we go!

Starkadder wrote:

In addition, from be DT rules: "when deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any IC's that have joined it). "

Infiltrating Raiders here we go!

Yeah. But we don`t have infiltrator IC. So nobody can join wraks this way.

Not sure about Karandas...

But if i`m correct, there is warlord trait (strategic i supose) which give D3 units infiltrate. So probably with this stuff it could work.

Battle brothers can ride in transports and are basically now just treated like our own.

Illic and Karandaras have infiltrate (if memory serves). No need to rely on the warlord trait.

Starkadder wrote:

Battle brothers can ride in transports and are basically now just treated like our own.

Illic and Karandaras have infiltrate (if memory serves). No need to rely on the warlord trait.

I`m not sure they could start game in a raider or venom. Even if they BB with us.
I think they only can get into the transport durning T1, so they definatly won`t be able to infiltrate in them.

And i`m not sure about rule. Do they MUST be placed last, or can do it like normal units (sounds like all infiltrators are mental retarded or something   )

P.S. By the way... Illic and Karandas - not the best option for allyed HQ IMHO.

Starkadder wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

From the rulebook:
Infiltrate - "units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last"

"If a unit with infiltrate deploys inside a transport they may infiltrate along with their transport"

Independent character - "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit"

"While an IC is part of a unit he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

"An IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

So it's clear the IC joins a unit before the game begins. Following the infiltrate rule his unit can thus deploy as infiltrators. 'Before the game begins' obviously coming before deployment.

If you're going to quote rules, quote all of the relevant rule. Whilst the rules do indeed say that  "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit" they also say "either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." and this is the part that causes the problem. The unit does not have infiltrate and so must be deployed normally, at which point the IC is also deployed. But by that stage it is too late to use the Infiltrate rule as you have already deployed.

Out of interest, would Lady Malys's ability fix this? Her ability allows her to redeploy units, even into reserve. So could an infiltrating character deploy normally with a unit that doesn't have infiltrate (there by granting that unit infiltrate) THEN have the entire unit get redeployed back into reserve as they are now all infiltrators? Not competitive at all, but would it allow us to infiltrate Grotesques!

Count Adhemar wrote:

Starkadder wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

From the rulebook:
Infiltrate - "units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last"

"If a unit with infiltrate deploys inside a transport they may infiltrate along with their transport"

Independent character - "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit"

"While an IC is part of a unit he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

"An IC without infiltrate cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

So it's clear the IC joins a unit before the game begins. Following the infiltrate rule his unit can thus deploy as infiltrators. 'Before the game begins' obviously coming before deployment.

If you're going to quote rules, quote all of the relevant rule. Whilst the rules do indeed say that  "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit" they also say "either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." and this is the part that causes the problem. The unit does not have infiltrate and so must be deployed normally, at which point the IC is also deployed. But by that stage it is too late to use the Infiltrate rule as you have already deployed.

Not an intentional omission. The problem with this interpretation is it also precludes our own independent characters from deploying in our Raiders, as they are neither in "coherency" or "reserve".

Now either the whole 40k community (including flgs) has been playing that wrong or being in a DT counts as being "in coherency" or somehow suspends the requirement (sorry do t have DT rules here in front of me).

If that is the case then as per the rule you quoted back at me they join the unit before deployment and this confer their rule on the unit.

This isn't the only interpretation, but if you're quoting the IC rules then you need alternative explanation as to how an archon can deploy with wyches etc. in a Raider.

The DT rules say "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)". I agree that this doesn't exactly solve the issue you've raised but it does give us a good indication of the intent.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The DT rules say "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)". I agree that this doesn't exactly solve the issue you've raised but it does give us a good indication of the intent.

Ah thanks - I didn't have them to hand. There doesn't look to be any restriction there on allied ICs joining (indeed they join through exactly the same mechanism as our own ICs).

This being the case, RAW (and I'd argue RAI) an IC with infiltrate can join a unit ('before' deployment) thus conferring his rule on them for deployment as per the infiltrate rules.

Also, there is no restriction on them deploying in a Raider which as a DT for a squad who has one member with the infiltrate rule, can also infiltrate.

It's not a cheese RAW scenario; I honestly think looking at the letter of the law and the spirit of the whole new edition that this is both allowed and anticipated.

Now, that's not to say it's especially competitive... but it does give you a way to get your WWP the deepest you can before t2.

alexwellace wrote:

Out of interest, would Lady Malys's ability fix this? Her ability allows her to redeploy units, even into reserve. So could an infiltrating character deploy normally with a unit that doesn't have infiltrate (there by granting that unit infiltrate) THEN have the entire unit get redeployed back into reserve as they are now all infiltrators? Not competitive at all, but would it allow us to infiltrate Grotesques!

It can be a funny way to push forward your WWP!
- Deploy an Homunculus inside an infiltrator unit (mandrakes or eldar rangers).
- Redeploy using lady malys unit as per infiltration rules.
- First turn you've got a WWP 12-18 away from your enemy and a haemy protected by stealth.

Do you think it's legal?

Gherma wrote:

alexwellace wrote:

Out of interest, would Lady Malys's ability fix this? Her ability allows her to redeploy units, even into reserve. So could an infiltrating character deploy normally with a unit that doesn't have infiltrate (there by granting that unit infiltrate) THEN have the entire unit get redeployed back into reserve as they are now all infiltrators? Not competitive at all, but would it allow us to infiltrate Grotesques!

It can be a funny way to push forward your WWP!
- Deploy an Homunculus inside an infiltrator unit (mandrakes or eldar rangers).
- Redeploy using lady malys unit as per infiltration rules.
- First turn you've got a WWP 12-18 away from your enemy and a haemy protected by stealth.

Do you think it's legal?

I don't know if I follow what you're trying to do? If it's just to infiltrate the Mandrakes and the haemi, then no it's not. The IC rules specify that an IC without infiltrate cannot join infiltrators during deployment (but not the converse).

If its just benefitting from Malys shenanigans: I seem to recall there used to be a FAQ not allowing redeployment out of your deployment zone...

Gherma wrote:

alexwellace wrote:

Out of interest, would Lady Malys's ability fix this? Her ability allows her to redeploy units, even into reserve. So could an infiltrating character deploy normally with a unit that doesn't have infiltrate (there by granting that unit infiltrate) THEN have the entire unit get redeployed back into reserve as they are now all infiltrators? Not competitive at all, but would it allow us to infiltrate Grotesques!

It can be a funny way to push forward your WWP!
- Deploy an Homunculus inside an infiltrator unit (mandrakes or eldar rangers).
- Redeploy using lady malys unit as per infiltration rules.
- First turn you've got a WWP 12-18 away from your enemy and a haemy protected by stealth.

Do you think it's legal?

How it`s written in warlord trait? U just deploy units as infiltrators, or they get the rule?
Well, i think it`s legal if haemi gets infiltrate.

By the way - Malys can`t redeploy infiltrators outside the zone of deployement. But it`s still interesting...

Devilogical wrote:

How it`s written in warlord trait? U just deploy units as infiltrators, or they get the rule?

They get the rule, so your webways could get deployed 18" from enemy