2000 competitive

All, please critique my list for a competitive tourney coming up in the ext 6 weeks.

HQs
lady malys
Haemonculi with Liquifier gun & Scissorhand

Troops
(5) Warriors, 1 blaster in Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
(5) Warriors, 1 blaster in Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
(5) Warriors, 1 blaster in Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons

(6) Wyches w/Haywire grenades, Hekatrix w/Agonizer in DL Raider with FF & Shock Prow
(6) Wyches w/Haywire grenades, Hekatrix w/Agonizer in DL Raider with FF & Shock Prow
(6) Wyches w/Haywire grenades, Hekatrix w/Agonizer in DL Raider with FF & Shock Prow

Elites
(4) Trueborn w/(4) Blasters in Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
(4) Trueborn w/(4) Blasters in Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons


Heavy
(3x DL) Ravager w/ FF
(3x DL) Ravager w/ FF
(3x DL) Ravager w/ FF


I have exactly 208pts remaining

I could take a large unit of Beastmasters
(4) Beastmasters
(4) Khymerae
(6) razorwing flocks

A third unit of trueborn with Blasters in a dual Splinter cannon venom

(6) Incubi in a Raider w/ Darklance and FF

or
a pair of Haemonculi as listed.

I am somewhat torn between the incubi and the beasts

The beast will put out a lot of attacks including some rends and are able to absorb a decent amount of shooting.

However, the Incubi in a raider will slice and dice whatever they come into contact with, plus their 3+ save is not to be scoffed at.

The haemis are more of a buff to the wych units and can soften things up for the wyches, but by themselves are not game winners or breakers.

Thoughts

Baron Tordeck wrote:

this is gunna sound funny but lose the hemmie, and get vect. Lose a wych unit, use all saved pts for unit of Brides? for Vect to role with

Not a bad idea except I'd lose Malys and get vect (I'd just stick him with a wych unit and the haemonculus, Vect can do all the heavy lifting on his own) use the remaing points to beef up units and add a few upgrades.

I think Vect is way too expensive.

I can get malys and Sathonyx for less than Vect.

malys has a lot of avantages over Vect and she is half the price.

Vect would be included in an "Ard Boys list at 2500, but for me not at 2K.

Your wych units are way to small.

Xelkireth wrote:

Your wych units are way to small.

Why??

They should be about the right size to finish off most units in the following turn so they don't sit around and get shot to pieces after the first assault. What am I missing?

GAR wrote:

Xelkireth wrote:

Your wych units are way to small.

Why??

They should be about the right size to finish off most units in the following turn so they don't sit around and get shot to pieces after the first assault. What am I missing?

Umm… their 3 strength, what unit could they kill in 2 turns?

They're a combat unit. In my six, almost seven years of 40k playing, no combat unit of ten or less every performs as well as a larger unit. The exception being units of pure awesomeness like Incubi. I can almost guarantee your wych units are going to struggle unit they have a pain token.

What size do you recommend?

Honestly, I'd do nine. One space open for each of your HQs. Especially since you're not using wych weapons. I imagine you're intended your wyches to do tank and dread hunting.

Every excess seat in a raider that isn't being used is a waste of points. You're paying for ten seats, use them!

Give me a minute and I'll have a list for you that's based off what you got so far.

Also, Lady Malys... Why her? Is there a special attachment you have for her?

My overall plan is to use my shooting to soften up assault targets, be it armor or infantry.

lady malys & the haemi run together with wyches and act as my beatstick. The other wyches support or pick off isolated targets. If I have to fleet, then the haemi leaves the unit and leaves the pain token with Malys and wyches.

Rest my force zooms around blasting whatever is in range and weakening whatever is near HQ that can assualt them.

lady malys is nice in that she is a true archon, can do 8 PW attacks on the charge and is utterly immune to physchic powers, plus redeployment is a nice bonus.

I'm taking the raiders for the Dark Lances on them, not for the extra troop capacity, although I do need the extra for the HQs + Wych unit.

With the points I have left over, I would rather not take a big unit of wyches, but maybe pick up some bloodbriedes or beastmasters or incubi to assist in difficult combats. I also prefer to group charge enemy units I need to wipe out. It takes a little bit pf planning, but malys redployment can help set these up early.

My preference is to have 3 units of 6 wyches with 3 agonizers rather than 1 or 2 big units with 1 or 2 agonizers.

Support shooting is a must to be sure, and that can be done with the splinter cannons from all the venoms. I think I have 5 in my current list.

Okay this list is at 1985. You have 15 points left to play with.

Lady Malys - 130pts
Haemonculus w/Liquidfier and Shattershard -75pts
Haemonculus w/Liquidfier - 60 pts

4x Trueborn w/4x blasters, mounted in a dual splintercannon venom - 173pts
4x Trueborn w/4x blasters, mounted in a dual splintercannon venom - 173pts

5x Warriors w/blaster, mounted in a dual splintercannon venom - 125pts
5x Warriors w/blaster, mounted in a dual splintercannon venom - 125pts
5x Warriors w/blaster, mounted in a dual splintercannon venom - 125pts
9xWyches w/hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix with agoniser, haywire grenades, mounted in a raider w/ ff - 218pts
9xWyches w/hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix with agoniser, haywire grenades, mounted in a raider w/ ff - 218pts
9xWyches w/hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix with agoniser, haywire grenades, mounted in a raider w/ ff - 218pts

Ravager w/ff - 115pts
Ravager w/ff - 115pts
Ravager w/ff - 115pts

Alternatively, you can sack Lady Malys for
Archon w/PGL, agoniser, combat drugs, shadowfield - 145pts

...and that would put your list at 2000pts even.

I agree with Xelkrith, larger squads are more effective. I would drop two blasters from each Trueborn squad and add two shredders. This will save you points, and give you some more template weapons. For a competative list, you never know who your opponent will be. The shredders I find to be very effective against light infantry, and can also be effective against light armour, (Transports!) especially if you can hit side or rear armor.

Use the save points to add some Wych weapons. I prefer the Hydra Gauntlets, but all can be effective if you play to them.

Howdy, so here is my latest version of my 2K tourney list.

HQs
Lady Malys

(2) haemonculi with liquifier guns

(Troops)
5 Kabalite Warriors with shredder in a Venom w/ Dual Splinter cannons
5 Kabalite Warriors with shredder in a Venom w/ Dual Splinter cannons
5 Kabalite Warriors with shredder in a Venom w/ Dual Splinter cannons
5 Kabalite Warriors with shredder in a Venom w/ Dual Splinter cannons

8 Wyches with Hekatrix with Haywire grenades & Agonizer in Raider with shock prow, NS & FF
8 Wyches with Hekatrix with Haywire grenades & Agonizer in Raider with shock prow, NS & FF

(Elites)
4 Trueborn with blasters in Raider with shock prow, NS & FF
4 Trueborn with blasters in Raider with shock prow, NS & FF

(Fast Attack)
5 Scourges with haywire blasters

(Heavy)
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances and FF
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances and FF
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lances and FF

Lady Malys & haemi will ride with one unit of wyches, other haemi will ride with others. Lady Malys is my HQ choice because I like the immune to psychic powers, redeployment and she can crank out a lot of attacks. She is cheap and in my estimation good for what she does.

My thinking, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I will have the warriors sit back if there are any deep strikers and shoot from a distance trying to provide some cover for the Ravagers. The Wyches and trueborn will move up to attack whatever targets of opportunity are available.

Once things open up, I can commit the warriors to plug gaps or snatch objectives or apply additional pressure on infantry or chase down and wipe out depleted units.

The scourges serve dual roles, haywire blasters are not really there to destroy vehicles, they are there to buy me time by stunning them for a turn or two while my DL destroy other armor threats. Once they armor is under control they can jump around and pick off depleted infantry. If they get the golden bullet and destroy armor, great, but I am not counting on it.

I think I have a decent amount of duality and redundancy in this list, and it is a meant to be as TAC list. It seems to me to be balanced across the board.

I have read a lot of tacticas from Thor to Dash to some of the ones Stelek has written, everyone has their own ideas of what works best. My goal here Is not to copy their lists, although there is nothing wrong with them. My goal is to build something that provides balance, is competive and will not be a one trick pony that can be easily countered by a skilled player.

My set up with raiders and venoms seems contrary to what others have done, I have my trueborn in raiders with NS & FF, and while this seems to be a waste of transport space, I intend to push them forward and maximize my disembark options, plus if I do embark back onto them, I have much large threat zone using the length of the raider instead of the venom.

My warriors in venoms are to protect and deep striking threats or drop pods in my deployment zone, or to harass enemy infantry from a distance. I know that blasters are preferred for a small unit of warriors, but I intend to keep them back at first and use the venoms long range to pick off enemy threats, such as long fangs, then move up and clean up with the warriors and claim objectives. This is of course subject to change based on my opponent, but for now I am focusing on a SW long fang list and a mech heavy IG list. Maybe it will work, maybe not. My previous iterations of my list have done decently, with me getting wins, but they were close wins.

The scourges are kind of the odd ducks, but I had 140 points left over and not enough to due a decent trueborn unit or a beast unit, and these guys fit in nicely, can harass armor or infantry and deep strike as well if I need to.

Overall I can target, per turn, 10 different armored units with darklight or haywire weapons, and 8 different infantry units at 12 inches and 4 at greater than 12 inches.
I have 2 dedicated CC units, which while they may not be a deathstar or anyting that devastating, should be capable of dealing with depleted or basic units.Raiders with shock prows can ram or tank shock to move enemy in a direction I prefer, assuming they live that long. I intend to shoot elite CC units.

I hope my explanation of my units and break down helps. Please feel free to poke gaping holes in this. Thanks much

Alighty.... Taking a break from building my awesome venoms.


I wouldn't not take shock prows and flickerfields. This is my reasoning. Shock prows while interesting, I think was a really dumb design idea by GW. They're worthless. You charge anything other than a rhino and you're gonna be hurting. It's literally there, I believe, to get players to waste points. You don't need flickerfields on your raiders either. If you're not moving flat-out, you're in cover taking pot shots. Flat-out beats the 5+ invul save, as does the 4+ of staying in cover.

Why do you have trueborn in raiders? I'm lost. Trade them in for venoms. Why don't you have any grisly trophies? From a former Chaos Marine player,being able to re-roll those leadership saves is AWESOME.

That is all I got.

I'm right there with you, I have 5 venoms myself! WOOT!!

Shock prows are there to ram, if I need to, but more to push and shove infantry around in the direction I want. True they may get blowed up, but I can live with that if they keep my drive alive. They make it easier for me to move infantry off objectives. Or so I hope.

Trueborn are in raider for 2 reasosns, if they are mounted, there is a much larger footprint for the trueborne to shoot from, when compared to a venom. I intend to keep my venoms back, with my warriors mounted in them, until most of the real threats to my armor are gone, then they can move up.

Second, I have 4 raiders and 4 venoms, which balances my list out. I could go all raider or venom heavy, but I think with a balanced mix of AT and AI fire I should be in good shape.

For more AT I have 3 ravagers and 2 units of 4 trueblasters.

The main problem I am seeing is if I go all venom heavy, I am loosing some AT ability, or I have to change all my warrior squads from having shredders to blasters. if I do this, then everything needs to move forward to attack any armor threats, whereas with my warriors and venoms dedicated to hunting infantry and light armor ( with the shredders) and my trueborne and wyches in raiders fly forward and attack armor or whatever is a closer threat.

Does this make sense or am I just all plain missing something.

Thanks appreciate the help.

No you made sense to me. I see your points. I still think you should ditch flickerfields on the raiders. Take grisly trophies! Grisly tttrrrroooopppphhhhiiieeeessss!

*Jedi Mindtrick*

Grisly trophies are the shizzy and you will take them.

Xelkireth wrote:

No you made sense to me. I see your points. I still think you should ditch flickerfields on the raiders. Take grisly trophies! Grisly tttrrrroooopppphhhhiiieeeessss!

*Jedi Mindtrick*

Grisly trophies are the shizzy and you will take them.

Though I'm not sure on ditching the flickerfields (I love em) Z has a point about the grizzly trophies not on everything but sprinkled here and there would help you mitigate the unlucky pinning roll, run from combat.

I spoken before on my hatred of shredders so I will resist here.

I would just like to point where you could trim things to get more points to spend.

Your trueborn should really be in Venoms. Cheaper, smaller and all you miss is one lance...

Saving - 40 pts

Your Wyches raiders are also over equipped. I would lose the night shields and the flicker fields. These vehicles should be hidden or moving flat out.

Saving - 40 pts

FNP wyches arent afraid of vehicle explosions. If it happens you might lose a couple of models but at least you end up in cover right??

So if you lose all that paraphanalia you gain 80 points.

I would then swap out one of your warrior units and a venom for another wych unit in a shock prowed raider. 3 wych units gives your opponent a bit more to think about than 2.

I hear what you say about the sheilds, but its'nt it true that if a vehicle is moving flat out, that an immobilzed result, or wrecked, or explodes results in the passengers all being removed as casualties?\

I don't have my rule book with me, but I thought that was the rule.

I just assume move my raiders forward 12, drop the passengers and then start shooting for as long as I can.

Thanks for the comments.

The passengers only die if the vehicle is immobilised in the players turn.

So if you ram a truck and get immobilised they die
If you fail dangerous terrain you die

If your opponent shoots you in their turn you are wrecked but you can disembark.

This is because Turn always refers to player turn unless otherwise specified.

Considered extras and upgrades and revised my list a little.

lady Malys
2 haemonculi with liquifier guns

Elites
4 trueborn with blasters in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons & Nights Shields
4 trueborn with blasters in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons & Nights Shields
6 Incubi in Raider w/ DL, SP & FF

Troops
5 kabalite Warriors with Shredder in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons & Nights Shields
5 kabalite Warriors with Shredder in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons & Nights Shields
5 kabalite Warriors with Shredder in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons & Nights Shields
7 Wyches with Hekatrix with haywire grenades and venom Blade in Raider w/ Dl, SP & FF
7 Wyches with Hekatrix with haywire grenades and venom Blade in Raider w/ Dl, SP & FF

5 Scourges w/ Haywire Blaster

3 Ravagers w/FF

I think I am getting closer. I don't like that I have dropped one of my troop choices, but now I have a strong CC unit ( Incubi) and a unit of scourges to hoefully buy me some time against mech heavy lists.

Lady Malys, I have played a couple of games with my previous list and it did well. the thing I noticed most was the frustration of the opponent in dealing with her anti-pysker power. 3 games and 3 opponents who just stopped dead in their tracks with their libbies trying ti figure out what to do. The redeployment is not such a big deal, but she does have alot of attacks, which has typically killed on average 2 or 3 marines per phase. not to bad, not to great, but serviceable.

I amhoping the incubi can do something. I played with them a couple of times, and then took them out. When I did use them, they did kill a lot. My thinking is I can run malys and the 2nd haemi whereever I need. So depending on my opponent I can switch between incubi or wyches if I expect to be in combat CC turn 1 or not. Against a heavy mech list, I thin I will send the wyches up to attack armor with haywire greandes.

Scourges, I tried them out this weekend and they did alright, but my opponent on had 4 armoured units and at the end of turn 1, there was only 1 dread left and it was out of range, so the haywire was wasted shooting at tactical marines.

I have moved Night shields to my venoms. maybe it will help, maybe not. There is a lot of debate over which shield type is better. I am still unsure. There are great arguments for both types of shield. Both have worked for me so the jury is still out.

I don't really see your unit of scourge doing nothing relevant because they would be alone and not going out of a WWP so they probably gonna be shot before you can do anything with them.
I would drop them and add one unit of 5 kabalite warrior in a raider and change one of the venom of the other warrior for a raider. You already got 4 venom in this case, which is enough, but adding 2 more lances could be useful and you can use the size of the raider to screen your advance with the other raiders.

I completely disagree with the argument against Flickerfields on Raiders, that either you're 'moving flat out' or getting a cover save.

If you're moving Flat Out, you're not firing your lances, and if you hang back in cover, you're not taking charge of the board - my Raiders are always on the move - I need them to cover ground if my Wyches are to get into cc after all; all the while they're blasting the enemy with Dark Lances, supported by the rest of my force all at once - eg, Raiders / Venoms. If something comes my way during that time, i'm happy to have that 5++ save.