Hellions: am I missing something?

I have actually gone and bought (just yesterday) another box of hellions, bringing my total to 20.

Why?

Couple of reasons...

1 - cool models
2 - Death star syndrome - people will shoot them! And that's ok. I intend to use them as chaff and bait to keep more precious units alive.
3 - flexibility - they can engage multiple targets and respond rapidly. They have a huge footprint on the table which inhibits movement - especially flyers

Reavers are certainly much better overall for a minimum of increase in points but Hellions are not bad - just out classed... but I only own 6 as opposed to 15 (now 20) hellions - I am going to sue them dammit!

Plus I suspect that my purchase might be the only one GW sees for some time from hellions!!

Khalyxidae hybristoma wrote:

Just because i want to advocate - while they aren't as survivable or quite as effective as before, you do also pay for

Hit & Run - which helps for leapfrogging around and affords a great deal of maneuverability
Jump Infantry - HoW OR just moving around more quickly
Stunclaw - cheap, not nearly as useful as before, but good for quickly taking out lightly armored sergeant and command units to remove conferred benefits

In general i do think that PFP and strategic deep strike placement will be essential to their use, but they do have some neat qualities.

When you take large units of Hellions, how do you intend to deepstrike them?
If you take small units of hellions, why aren't you just putting Reavers in Reserve when they can be anywhere within 48" of your board edge?

Jump Infantry is a step down from Bike.
Reavers also have Hit and Run.

The point in question isn't whether Hellions are good, it's whether they're worth taking over Reavers. Simply put, no.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

Will that is if you only think of them as a stand alone unit. I think that there is two ways to build aTAC list. Either from units that are on their own TAC, like grotesques, or from a combination of units that are all good at a few things and can TAC when they are combined.
I think the first one is easier to build and play but usually lacks the punch that a unit with the perfect matchup has.

I will agree in a general sense that more wide ranging units perform less well than focused units.

I think Incubi are a good example of that as they are very specialized, but as long as they get the type of matchup they want they are *very* powerful.

I don't think the same holds true for Hellions, though.
Just going with roughly equal points here;

4 Grots in a Raider w. Liquifier and Abberation w. Scissorhands - 220
15 Hellions - 225

vs. a squad of 20 GEQ

Hellions will shoot and then assault.
30 poison shots - 10 dead Guardsmen.
20 Overwatch shots (no special weapons) - 2 dead Hellion
36 Hellglaives - 16 dead Guardsmen (so 10 dead) squad wiped.

Grots pile out and shoot flamer (this is kind of a wild card, but let's say 5 Guardsmen are hit and odds are the flamer eats their armor, so 2.5 dead Guardsmen, let's call it 2)
36 overwatch shots - about a 50% chance for one wound to one Grot
7.5 Scissorhand attacks - 4 dead Guard (maybe more if any rends)
19.5 Flesh Gauntlet attacks - 15 dead Guard (so really 14) squad wiped.

So, that's a mass of Guard, what was offered up as the 'optimal' Hellion target. And with fairly basic dice both the Hellions and the Grots are able to wipe out a squad of 20 men, which is about as beefy as you're likely to find with Guard.

So, at that point, what is the Hellion specialty exactly? What is this opponent they will do better against than an equal amount of points in Grots?

I suppose one could argue that the Grots are worse vs. lascannon spam, and also that with high powered shooting the Hellions are more survivable, and this is true. But the Grots will do better vs. templates or blasts, and also are able to maintain heir combat functionality longer barring the opponent using anti mech weaponry on them, which does boost the survivability of the rest of the army.

I think the same holds true for Bikes. They are also, for similar points, *very* capable of killing Guardsmen. Also, like Grots, they have a wide range of targets they are good against.

Now, if Hellions were *really* good against Guard to the point they did twice as well versus them as Reavers and Grots do, then I think you would have a point. Incubi are like this. I don't think Incubi are a good choice, but against their chosen foe (basic MEQ) they are really damn good at inflicting damage...like, they kill twice what Grots can, and I bet outperform the bikes super well also. That said, even at twice as good I don't take them because I find them too specialized, but then if someone told me they were going to take them to deal with MEQ I'd have to agree that they are really darn good at that.

However, Hellions do not have that claim. There is nothing out there that they particularly outperform anything else in the army at killing. Yes, they can shoot and then assault, but they are still outshone by other tools in the dex, and then on *top* of that they have limited functionality.

Really, their only claim to fame at the moment is as a footprint. There is not a lot else int he dex that can quite compete with them in that regard. Though both Reavers and Beasts come pretty close and both are pretty good at doing what Hellions also do. So, to my mind, that regulates Hellions to a 'why, exactly?' sort of unit. They have a few unique options available to them, but are outclassed and outperformed at really every single one by other units in the dex.

Quote :

Only the ones that can threaten many targets are considered good units (reavers, grotesques).

That is no surprise, considering what is our army.
If every unit we have is very vulnerable and specialised, opposing player have no real reason not to delete ones that are dangerous to his particular army. And then you will be left with something that is both very vulnerable and useless. Thats why you dont take such units.

To heavy specialise army such as ours is a design flaw, i dont think Cruddace or Johnson understood completely how the army is working. Kelly did his best to create army where almost all units could take on anything, the alpha predators. Vulnerable, speedy and able to take on almost anything. Now i just scratch my head looking at some things.

Hellions, Wyches, Bloodbrides, Incubi - all those units fall into this design flaw. You wouldnt take those units, if you dont know the lists of what you are goona face. None of them are TAC.

Wyches and BLoodbrides surprisingly have AP5 special weapons, indicating you might wanna charge T3 5+ with them. Yet this is often stupid idea, cause those T3 5+ either have overwhelming overwatch or simple mass of bodies that will not care if your 4+ save is invulnerable. Or both.

Thor665 wrote:

So, at that point, what is the Hellion specialty exactly? What is this opponent they will do better against than an equal amount of points in Grots?

A possible answer - small Nids with Toxin Sacks.
So, like, a big mob of 30 or so Gaunts with toxin sack upgrades, that would do more functional damage to the Grots than to Hellions.

I can't think of anything else yet.

Thor665 wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

So, at that point, what is the Hellion specialty exactly? What is this opponent they will do better against than an equal amount of points in Grots?

A possible answer - small Nids with Toxin Sacks.
So, like, a big mob of 30 or so Gaunts with toxin sack upgrades, that would do more functional damage to the Grots than to Hellions.

I can't think of anything else yet.

Well I guess comparing Hellions to Grotesque is like comparing DE with CWE. Grotesques are pretty awesome and as killy as it gets ;-) thankfully they do not compete for the same FOC slot...
Reavers would be a better comparison. Their strength comes from the HoW attacks and Rending so they are good against good armoured units that aren't that bad as the reavers loose their killing power in the second combat phase, Hellion's do not as their"killing"power comes from their main weapons.

I totally agree with you that grotesques are in any way better then hellions, but then again grotesques are our best CC unit. Especially because it is an TAC unit. Grotesque does not care who you are - grotesque goes where he pleases ;-)
So comparing any DE unit with them will give the same answer.

Azdrubael wrote:

Thats why you dont take such units.

People do not take such units as they would be harder to play ;-)

Crazy_Irish wrote:

Well I guess comparing Hellions to Grotesque is like comparing DE with CWE. Grotesques are pretty awesome and as killy as it gets ;-) thankfully they do not compete for the same FOC slot...
Reavers would be a better comparison. Their strength comes from the HoW attacks and Rending so they are good against good armoured units that aren't that bad as the reavers loose their killing power in the second combat phase, Hellion's do not as their"killing"power comes from their main weapons.

Reavers are also superior in a large number of ways and also have Hit & Run as a means to capitalize on their HoW tactics.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

I totally agree with you that grotesques are in any way better then hellions, but then again grotesques are our best CC unit. Especially because it is an TAC unit. Grotesque does not care who you are - grotesque goes where he pleases ;-)
So comparing any DE unit with them will give the same answer.

Okay, though that is a proof of my point then, I feel. The argument I was disagreeing with was that Hellions are specialized, but that by being specialized they are more effective at their one job than a TAC unit would be - therefore making an army of specialized units viable ver an army of TAC units.

Grots vs. Incubi = Incubi do better point for point in killing their special target than Grots do.
Grots vs. Hellions = Grots perform exactly as well (in some ways better in some ways worse) for points as Hellions vs. their special target.

If Grots can manage that, I can see why you would want Incubi to be the specialists for their one trick, and could argue it as viable. If Grots can do what Hellions do and then do more, I see little reason to ever take Hellions.

But grots are slower, more susceptible to ID, can get locked down in combat and fit into a more cluttered and smaller space on the force org.

The hellions can also engage targets earlier due to range assuming the target has a T value

Massaen wrote:

But grots are slower, more susceptible to ID, can get locked down in combat and fit into a more cluttered and smaller space on the force org.

I think the faster claim is pretty debatable if you have Grots in a Raider - as they are faster and can also DS at that point (a more accurate DS, in a way).
Grots are, though they are also T5 so though things can ID them, those things are already pretty ridiculous. They are also less susceptible to templates, any blast of Str 9 or less, and most small arms fire.
Grots can be locked in combat and Hellions can't, I'll agree with that. The best counter I have is that Hellions are more needing to flee combat than Grots.
I suspect ForceOrg lockout will not happen too often.

Massaen wrote:

The hellions can also engage targets earlier due to range assuming the target has a T value

I can agree that this is an advantage. That said, for Hellions to make much sense you need to be using them as an assault tool too or wanting a real giant mass of them, otherwise you should definitely be using Beastmasters.

Agreed!

Thor665 wrote:

Reavers are also superior in a large number of ways and also have Hit & Run as a means to capitalize on their HoW tactics.

Well I compared the two again and one think I noticed while looking at Mushkillas comparison on page 1 is that the usual ppm for reavers would not be 3points more then hellions, as the real strength of the reavers comes from their special weapons.
A normal unit would take one ranged and one HoW special weapon. If you divide those costs evenly through the unit, then there is a difference of around 11 ppm.
So for a regular reaver you could nearly get two hellions.

Another thing which is a + for me is fleet. For me it is really important as it greatly improves the chances of a successful charge. Also hellions benefit more from the Combat drugs as they enhance the hellions CC strength and pfp is the same deal.
I know hellions are non of our best units, but I think their low cost, compared to other choices make them uses kinda useful ;-)

The thing about grotesques is, they are good at what they do and are very nicely priced. But if you kill their transport, they'll have to get a new one.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

Well I compared the two again and one think I noticed while looking at Mushkillas comparison on page 1 is that the usual ppm for reavers would not be 3points more then hellions, as the real strength of the reavers comes from their special weapons.
A normal unit would take one ranged and one HoW special weapon. If you divide those costs evenly through the unit, then there is a difference of around 11 ppm.
So for a regular reaver you could nearly get two hellions.

I'm not sure what math you're using for your specific 11ppm example, however, the thing is, basic Reavers are 3ppm more than Hellions and with no upgrades are already better than Hellions.

You can then also spend more to make them vastly more useful than Hellions - or you could buy a bigger mob of a less effective unit.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

The thing about grotesques is, they are good at what they do and are very nicely priced. But if you kill their transport, they'll have to get a new one.

Depends really, if you're using WWP than they are free of this issue. If you're using a Raider then, barring poor play or having it shot out from under them top half of Turn 1, they should already be in strike range after one turn of movement. I consider that pretty viable overall.

Well sure if you take precision DS(for only 104,99) the grotesques will get where you want them to be. I guess their raider will not survive the panic shooting the opponent will muster but with good placement the grotesques should not take any/to many damage in the round they DS. Then they'll charge something and wreck face. Now the problem starts. Either you landed in a castle formation, then good for you! Rampage on! Or after some good slapping around the grotesques have to walk around to find their next prey or ride. It is what it is - 6" movement.

Concerning my math, I think that reavers will not be fielded plain, without any upgrades, as these are really good and make the unit better in AI and AT. One could say that mixing both may be bad but both upgrades can be used against vehicle and infantry. That is how I get to 11ppm more expensive. Sure the regular reaver is 3ppm more exp. Add a heat lance for additional 3.33ppm and cluster caltrops for additional 5ppm adds up to 11.33ppm.
A squad of 12 reavers with arena champ with agoniser, 4 heat lances and 4 cluster caltrops adds up to 327 points.
For that amount I get 25 hellions with a helliarch for 335 points.

If you compare that for the reavers:
24 poison shots
8 S4 rending HoW
4D6 S6 rending HoW
33 S3 AP- CC attacks
4 agoniser attacks

Against hellions
50 poison shots
25 S3 HoW
51 S4 AP5 CC attacks

I think that shows that hellions aren't heavy hitters but their strength is in numbers. Anywho I think we found a nice disagreement ;-)

Crazy_Irish wrote:

Well sure if you take precision DS(for only 104,99) the grotesques will get where you want them to be.

They don't need precision DS, just a Raider will give them DS, and unlike Hellions they can then disembark from the Raider giving them a far more accurate DS since they can adjust for 6" of shift.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

Now the problem starts. Either you landed in a castle formation, then good for you! Rampage on! Or after some good slapping around the grotesques have to walk around to find their next prey or ride. It is what it is - 6" movement.

Well, I don't actually think this is remotely bad. First off, you are almost assuredly dropping down near the opponent's center. If they are spending all their time running from the Grots that is already a win for you.

Also, the Grots would not be a 6" move, they would be a 6+1d6 move or a 6+2d6 charge. Yes, that is less than the Hellions, but a roughly 13" radius (That would be larger than a 26" across blast marker) threat bubble around something you're dropping in your opponent's deployment zone will likely be able to threaten a wide array of his army.

Crazy_Irish wrote:

A squad of 12 reavers with arena champ with agoniser, 4 heat lances and 4 cluster caltrops adds up to 327 points.
For that amount I get 25 hellions with a helliarch for 335 points.

I find both of those to be badly designed units and would never use either.

But just crunching the numbers and presuming everything goes off as listed here (though I had them fire their heat lances and not splinter rifles) and presuming average caltrops;

14.49 dead MEQ
12.57 dead MEQ

I will also note that giving the Hellions HoW at all seems a bit of a stretch, though both units are getting unrealistic HoW counts regardless. This also presumes no overwatch at all, which would hurt the Hellions more as the RJBs could declare Jink on the way in and suffer far less loss of combat effectiveness.

@Irish

Do you have to get all 25 into B2B to get those HoW hits?

Thanks,

I still suggest that if you WANT to make use of your hellion models, call them beastmasters, take them in packs of 12. Save your 12 points, stick to area terrain, where MTC keeps you safe & use them as a shooting platform. Its still not ideal, but it is better than taking hellions & still allows you to use the incredible models.

Malevolent-Storm wrote:

@Irish

Do you have to get all 25 into B2B to get those HoW hits?

Thanks,

That is right, luckily you can only have 20 Hellion's in the unit and your the hellions do not rely purely on how.

Sláinte

I have been fielding my hellions in a unit of 16, joined by a haemonculus with a WWP and armour of misery. In any game that I have fielded them, they have been my MVP unit. If fired at, they soak up a lot of firepower, and if left alone they put a lot of hurt on anyone unfortunate enough to be shot at/charged by them.
Drop them deep in enemy territory behind LoS blocking terrain if possible, or ideally somewhere that is only visible to one unit. Shoot said unit to death then hide out for a turn. With the haem, they are guaranteed to have 5+ FNP when they arrive from reserves, which goes a long way in keeping them alive if they do find themselves being targeted. Also, with the haem, they are guaranteed to have furious charge as soon as they are able to make a charge. 32 (or more with drugs ) s5 attacks is a fearsome tally.
Yes, the haem slows them down, but with a big enough unit size, you can make a big conga line and therefore mitigate the slowing effect of the haem.
Something that I feel has been left out of this discussion thus far is; for ~200 pts, a kitted out reaver unit has 9 wounds. For a similar point value, a hellion unit has more like 16 wounds, and much more, sure fire, higher strength CC attacks.
Call me a fool, but I feel that hellions are among the most versatile units in our codex currently. Giant, high toughness monstrosities? Eat splinter pods. Huge hordes of orks/guardsmen? Meet my ap5 hellglaive. MEQ? Try and catch me while I pepper you with poison.
Of course if the unit falls back, all of these points are moot, but the same can be said for the reavers, who, at a similar price point, fall back after significantly less unsaved wounds.

The catch for me is - for similar points I can build a better assault or shooting unit that will be more resilient and/or capable of inflicting more damage via either shooting or assault.

I can see that being a potential "optimal" build for Hellions, but I'm not sure it's actually a particularly brilliant use of points either. Heck, due to their marriage with the Haem basically simply moving away from them after they drop in practically secures the safety of the opponent's army or, naturally, the possibility of any blasts or templates in their armory, or assaulting first, which drastically hampers the ability of Hellions to inflict damage in that build.

I think the issue is that there are quite a few hard counters to the build that cost less than the build. If they counters were more expensive or less numerous I'd be more excited.