1850 newb tourney list- Thanks for all the help its almost ready!

Found out about a tourney next month, so I'm bumping up my initial list to play at 1850. I have not put together any models yet, as I'm still trying to figure out how to configure them.

Hq- Sliscus- 150
Lelith- 175

Elites:
Trueborn -x9, 4 blasters, x2 dark lance-193
Raider- Flickerfield, nightshield, splinter racks- 90

Blood Brides- x9, x3 razorflails, syren, bp, agoniser - 177
Raider- flickerfield, nightshield, ea, shock prow, envenomed blades- 95

Troops:
Kabalite Warriors- x10, shredder, splinter cannon- 105
Raider- Flickerfield, nightshield, racks- 90
Wyches- x10,Hekatrix (agoniser), x2 razorflails- 150
Raider- flickerfield, nightshield, shock prow- 85

Fast Attack:
Reavers- x6 reaver jetbikes, champion, agoniser, heatlance x2 -186


Heavy Support:
Ravager- Flickerfield, nightshield, -125
Ravager- Flickerfield, nightshield, -125

Total 1746
Any Thoughts?

A couple of immediate thoughts;

Why do you need Sliscus? You only have 2 Units of Wyches, do not appear to be built to need DS, and are not taking advantage of his poison boost because he's being fielded with an anti-tank unit. In short - you're paying out a lot of extra points for a sub-standard stat line Archon.

I'd drop him.

Personally I'd also probably drop Lelith, but the model is awesome and she isn't too shabby in the grand scheme, so I am not so opinionated if you just like her.

I'd probably drop the blast pistol from the Wyches - half the time you'll want to use fleet anyway, and the rest of the time you'll want to shoot at something they'll want to assault, which will rarely be a vehicle and at that point a splinter pistol will do fine and not cost you an arm and a leg.

I think the Treuborn squad is waaaay too expensive, at the very least you should drop the few guys with splinter rifles, because they're going to look silly most of the time when the unit is hunting vehicles. Same with the splinter racks on the Raider. To be honest most of your vehicles have so many upgrades on them I feel you're pushing hard just to make 1750 and are actually building a 1500 list and padding it out with 250 points of random wargear upgrades.

Personally I'd also drop the arena champion - RJBs are pretty derptastic as assault units (compare the price you're paying for them vs. Wyches and ask what's really going to actually assault something and win). I also, personally, think two squads of 3 are better than one squad of 6. A lot of people disagree with me (they are wrong ) and you can draw your own conclusions - but it's at least something to consider.

Going up to 1850 I would say what you need is...TROOPS!

Dear lord, sir, only two troop options? That is casaba melon sized balls there considering how fragile we are it would be silly easy for an opponent to kill both your troops in an objective game and basically have you fighting to just manage a tie since you'd have no way to win. I'd probably drop some of the above stuff I mentioned and add in 2+ Troop options.

--------------------------

My biggest concern is...how many models do you actually own? You want to participate in an 1850 tournament but your list looks like you're only able to really field 1500 and in order to get higher points you're sort of just...making things more expensive as opposed to making them better. If you have a variety of other models besides what we're discussing - than you really need to see about fielding more units, and not just making units more expensive. A squad of Wyches and a Squad of Wyches w. every upgrade available to them really will kill about the same number of enemy units over the course of a game.

Basically what I'm thinking right now is keeping sliscus for his upgrades, putting him with a troops choice, keeping the blood brides but dropping the wyches and the arena champion, adding more kabalite warriors with transports. I will post a list when I get it written out.

Ok here's something. Its late so if my math isn't air tight please let me know. I still need nearly 200 points though. Just trying to figure out what to put there.
This is a cracked out list for 1850 and probably isn't a great idea. Please let me know your thoughts.

Kracked OUT LIST:
Vect: Dais of destruction: 440 (with bloodbrides as of right now)
Elite: x9 bloodbrides, x3 razorflails, siren, blast pistol, agoniser, haywire grenades: 195
Troops:
Warriors: x10 warriors, blaster, dark lance- 130
Raider: ff, ns, racks: 90
Warriors: x10 warriors, blaster, dark lance- 130
Raider: ff, ns, racks: 90
Warriors:x10, blaster, splinter cannon-115
Raider: ff, ns, racks: 90
Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6 reavers, x2 heat lance: 156
Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns, disintegrator cannon x1 -125
Ravager: ff, ns, disintegrator cannon x1 -125
(1686 so far)

Not to double post but I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew there had been an update on my end. Not sure if merely editing does that.
Thanks!

So far it's a 1000 point list with Vect and some Bloodbrides.

I know a lot of people who actually really like Vect - I'm more neutral on him and generally feel he's too expensive for what he brings. If you want him, go for him, I don't think it's the best, but there are players who swear by him and appear to have some decent success in 1850 games.

That said - I just do not see the value of his 200 point pimp ride. That sucker is eating up so many points in your army it's obscene - and it's still pretty darn fragile. AV 14 is nice, but it can still be popped by a lot of things.

Since Vect will only really be inside of it until Turn 2 at the latest - is it that worth the extra points? I personally *really* don't think so. In honest fact, I think it's the worst option in the codex. I'd take him and the Brides and put them in a Raider and save 130 points and buy a Ravager - bam, I'm pretty sure that will be more effective as I get more guns (plus get to choose which guns I want), can put upgrades on Vect's ride if I want to, get a transport that can go flat out and not waste shooting, and am free to stick Vect with a unit of less than 9 if I so wish. Plus, I'm still probably saving points over the Dias.

that's weird one of my edits to the list must not have made it or something. Here it is:
Upon some consideration, I have several options that fit the overall feel of the army that I'm going for. I would like some vet opinions of the best way to go.
Scourges x5 – x2 blasters, solarite with blast pistol, 165 (just have to remove a rack upgrade from a raider or take out the Syren’s agoniser, replace it with a power weapon.
Razorwing Jetfighter: ff, ns -165 (same as above)
Ravager: 125, leaving some points left over (also, 4 ravagers in a game. Sheesh. Scary but boring)
Trueborn on a venom for at: x4 trueborn, x4 blasters, venom ns: 163
Incubi: x5, venom- 165

Not so cracked out list:
Lelith: 175 (with wyches)
Elites:
Trueborn: x10, x4 blasters, dark lance: 205
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Troops:
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Wyches: x9, razorflail, Hekatrix, haywire grenades, power weapon:138
Raider: ff, ns: 80
Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 heat lance, caltrops: 176
Heavy Support:
Ravager: x1 disintegrator cannon, ff, ns: 125
Ravager: x1 disintegrator cannon, ff, ns: 125
1774- 76 points left. More reavers?

ok, let me add my two cents:

HQ: Why lelith??? she can be good, but you have to have the list built around her. She needs two pain tokens to be effective, and I dont think those wyches can keep her alive to get them. She wont blow out a squad (which is a good thing) but it just takes one fist attackto put a end to him.

Elites: Why the 1 dark lance? if you have 4 blasters, they want to be mobile, so you can get into range with those 4 great AT weapons. That lance hinders them to sit and shoot if they want to use it effectively. Go with either 2 DL or 4 Blasters. Also why 10 TB??? thats alot of abrasive wounds, and alot of wasted points.

troops:fine, although I think your raiders are expensive, and the PW on your wyches is pretty much useless until you get a 2nd pain token. go with an Agoniser instead.

FA: go with either AT or AI. Caltrops are too expensive to not be used every turn, and if you do, youve just wasted the points on the HLs. Go either or.

Heavy: Why just 1 dissie??? its shots are wasted on any tank, and it barely chages the wounds delt to infantry. Just stick to 3 DLs

With all the changes, I would add another squad of reavers with HLs, or if you want make one Caltrops and the other HL duty.

Thanks. Like I said these are my first initial lists. I haven't had any experience with Lelith yet so I didn't know that about building the list around her. I want to build a shooty army but every army needs some counter assault. Is a squad of wyches enough to fill that role? Or should I crack out and go bloodbrides or incubi?
I am looking forward to receiving my first boxes in the mail in about a week!

I like incubi for a counter-assault unit, the problem being is they take up a elite slot, which should be reserve for blasterborn. Wyches are fine as one, and if you want to keep them, just add a succubus with an Ag and HWG instead of lelith and pocket the rest of the points for something else.

HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Succubus: Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, blast pistol- 105

Elites:
Trueborn: x5, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 185
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 185

Troops:
Warriors: x9, blaster, dark lance : 121
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Warriors: x10, shredder, dark lance : 120
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, shredder, dark lance : 120
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Wyches: x9, razorflail, Hekatrix, haywire grenades, power weapon:138
Raider: ff, ns: 80
Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 heat lance: 156
Heavy Support:
Ravager: x1 disintegrator cannon, ff, ns: 125
Ravager: x1 disintegrator cannon, ff, ns: 125

Total 1848! Thoughts?

So does the silence mean its good or unutterably terrible?

The shredder/dar lance combo is pretty weaksauce - DE can't combat squad so there's not a lot of value in putting a short range (primarily anti-infantry) tool in with a long range anti-mech.

I'd still drop the excess blast pistols.

Agoniser is better than power weapon.

I'd split the Reavers into two squads.

Drop the blast pistol, you are better off running

I would drop the 5th man in the trueborn squad. There is no place for abrasive wounds in DE sadly.

Use those points and upgrade the helatrix to have an Agoniser. that static 1 wound helps out alot. While on the same vane, drop the razorflails. they rare good, but having 1 is just not worth it. use the extra points and replace the shredders with blasters in the warrior squads.

also just stick with all Dark Lances on the ravagers. you need the AT, and the dissie isnt overall effective anymore since it lost its plasma shot

Edit: Ninja'ed

HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Succubus: Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, blast pistol- 105

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173

Troops:
Warriors: x9, blaster, dark lance : 121
Raider: racks, ff, ns: 90
Warriors: x10, shredder, dark lance : 120
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, shredder, dark lance : 120
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Wyches: x9, razorflail, Hekatrix, haywire grenades, agoniser:148
Raider: ff, ns: 80
Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 heat lance: 156
Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125

Still 1848. Any thoughts on whether I should make at least one of my warrior squads more anti infantry? Or should I make one of my blasterborn more anti infantry?
Thanks

Personally I would drop the 3 lances on the warrior squads, get an extra blasterborn, and venom and run 3 squads of 3. If required I'd lose the n/s on everything to accomplish this, can't remember the lance cost, at work just now.
This increases your ant-infantry, 12 more cannon shots and gives you another AT platform. I'd rather have 3 units of 3 trueborn than 2 units of 4 if I could work them into the list. The warrior squads with the shredder and dark lances special weapons just don't add up. One is a long range AT weapon, the other a short range AI. I don't believe they mesh well together.

Going into a tournament with some exceptionally good Guard players, a grey knights player and a chaos demon player (those are the only others besides myself who've signed up), I like the idea of having as many dark lances as possible. Also I simply can not financially afford another venom, sadly. So keeping that in mind I have made a partial edit to the list:
HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Succubus: Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, blast pistol- 105

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173

Troops:
Warriors: x9,shredder, Splintercannon : 111
Raider: racks, ff, ns, disintegrator cannon : 90
Warriors: x9, blaster, dark lance : 121
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Wyches: x9, razorflail, Hekatrix, haywire grenades, agoniser:148
Raider: ff, ns: 80
Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 heat lance: 156
Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125

Total 1847:
This gives me some pretty good anti tank, one solid anti infantry shooty squad and the wyches for tying up and maybe even killing some heavies. If the blaster is so wasted on the succubus, what is a good replacement?
-David

As an aside, what do you guys think of (as a measure to save 40 bucks on blasters) a group of trueborn modeled with blast pistols to represent blasters? Or should I just whittle down shredders to represent them? Or should I just spend the extra 40?
Thanks
Also, is there enough anti hard infantry for a tourney? My first game with DE will more than likely be at that tourney so I'm not expecting to come in first- but I would like to be competitive, at least enough to have fun with these guys. Also, they aren't expecting me to play DE because I've always been a space marine player. Blood Angels, Black Templars, BT with Grey Knight allies, and such like. (I came in first place in a tourney the first day I'd ever played the new BA codex too. I had a really hard list. It was fast enough and brutal enough to make even a Dark Eldar nod in at least a feigned measure of respect). So this should be a fun shock to give these guys.
Me and my friends. How we brutalize each other.

Obviously money is an issue; venoms with 5 warriors can't take a DL but get the same amount of shots with a blastpistol sybarite as your warrior squads...

Why all the vehicle upgrades? Racks are nice if you take that many shots, but why do you need fickerfield and nightshield on everything? What does the succubus' blast pistol contribute to wyches, who are fleeting all the time?

The shredder is gunboating, yes? What happens if that blast scatters back onto your raider? S6 hurts! Also, why a disintegrator, you clearly could benefit more from AT.

Thor665 wrote:

You want to participate in an 1850 tournament but your list looks like you're only able to really field 1500 and in order to get higher points you're sort of just...making things more expensive as opposed to making them better.

This is still the case. If money's an issue, and you MUST go now, I'd rather run under than change weapons to disadvantage myself.

I was simply thinking of an option for going up against the harder infantry i know will be there. Orks, for example, will be making a showing. Everyone is saying that mixing anti tank and anti infantry weapons in a squad isn't a good idea so I figured that would be the best way to go. And I just found out that money won't be that much of a problem (I still need to be frugal if I can, though) as my father decided to give me his van instead of having me need to purchase a new car. So that frees up a bit more. I was thinking of trimming things down a bit (like maybe even loosing the wyches and succubi) and adding a third ravager or even a ravenwing, or scourges. More options are always better, right?

Changes made are imboldened.
Without any hand to hand craziness
HQ:
Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173

Troops:
Warriors: x9,Blaster, Splintercannon : 111
Raider: racks, ff, ns,Dark Lance : 90 (sliscus goes here)
Warriors: x9, blaster, dark lance : 121
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Fast Attack:
Reavers: x9, x3 heat lance: 233 ( I may split these into 2 or three seperate groups)

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Voidraven Bomber (Razorwing model counts as) (my anti hard infantry hell platform): Implosion missiles x2, shtterfield missilex2, ff, ns - 245


The voidraven is amazing but I wonder if it is better fielded in pairs?

OR
(this is what I am leaning towards even though I really, really want that razorwing model; it doesn't fit with the overall theme of the army, however)

Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn x4, x4 carbines, venom: 123

Troops:
Warriors: x9, Blaster, : 96
Raider: racks, ff, ns DL : 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
[b]Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80


Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 blasters: 162

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125

Total 1847
EDIT: by the way thats 25 dl weapons in a single list. Holy crap.
I can imagine all of those going off in one turn. If they all hit, watch out. If any of them miss, I'm loosing a lot of vehicles and infantry in the next opponent shooting phase!

Also possible:
One more ravager instead of the 3rd blasterborne (carbineborn?) squad.

I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone here. Fragile troops AND fragile vehicles and no HtH ability at all.

Sorry to post you guys to death. I really am grateful to have your input. Here is another advantage of only buying the army you play with: Until you buy it, you can't put it together. Here's another version of the above list, with some decent hth power too. However it drops the reavers.

Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn x4, x4 carbines, venom: 123

Troops:
Warriors: x8, Blaster, : 87
Raider: racks, ff, ns DL : 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Wyches: x5, razorflails, haywire grenades, hekatrix agoniser, blast pistol, venom, splintercannon: 180


Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125

Are you looking for opinions on all three, or just a 'which is best'?

Either or. Whatever you have time for.
I don't really like the last one with the wyches. Four venoms is fun, I'd probably get more AT if I threw them in a raider instead.
Although now that I finally got _dugh_ that Ravagers have Aerial assault... I think 3 is good.

With that in mind, I have been envisioning this as a mobile gunboat force from the beginning. The only problem I can see is a lack of hth, but if I just shoot and scoot that might (it probably will) not come back to bite me in the butt.

Here's a closer to complete tourney list:
Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173

Troops:
Warriors: x9, Blaster, : 96
Raider: racks, ff, ns DL : 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
[b]Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 blasters: 162

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125 (may make this one a dedicated anti infantry raft)

Total 1849

Just a thought, I know I'm going up against:
A beginner's Blood Angels army (though I know from experience that even a beginner can bring the pain, especially with blood angels) and an Eldar army, pobably mech. I know holo fields are a big pain for anyone without heat lances, so I'll probably switch the reavers back to HL platform. Also, does anyone have an opinion on my complete lack of melee? Its almost alien for me to not have a melee deathstar unit (see blood angels and black templars)- so I'm kind of nervous about this.
As an update, I'm purchasing the first units of the army tomorrow!