1850 newb tourney list- Thanks for all the help its almost ready!

This is a list intended for a tournament wherein several of the players are going to be putting out a high volume of feel no pain. So I thought I'd up the anti infantry. I would love some input on this. I know that is a pimped out sliscus unit, and I wonder how effective any of you vets have found it. If its just crap I'll go back to the reaver jet bikes option.
Also, the list totals out a bit under 1850, leaving me enough points to add a Razorwing JF if I nix one of the Ravagers. Though it doesn't really fit with the overall pirate theme of the army, the razorwing is just an awesome unit and I am buying one tomorrow.

Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: The Envenomed: x9 trueborn, x 5 shardcarbines, splintercannon x2, x2 shredder 163
Raider: FF, NS- 80
Troops:
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance: 130
Raider: racks, ff, DL : 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
[b]Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Fast Attack:

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125

Total 1814

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

A beginner's Blood Angels army (though I know from experience that even a beginner can bring the pain, especially with blood angels)

Blood Angels aren't too bad depending on your intended strategy - they're not too difficult to outshoot unless they go serious Razorspam - and at that point we can still potentially outshoot them or assault rush them.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

and an Eldar army, pobably mech. I know holo fields are a big pain for anyone without heat lances

Orly? I think holofields are dealt with fine by lances. We can still make it so he can't move or shoot via weak damage results, and that's half the battle. If he has spirit stones it becomes a little dicier - but by that point he's sinking so many points into vehicles that you should probably have enough lances to pepper him. The danger from Eldar is their Str 6 shooting spam - not holo fields.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

Also, does anyone have an opinion on my complete lack of melee? Its almost alien for me to not have a melee deathstar unit (see blood angels and black templars)- so I'm kind of nervous about this.

My competitive lists of choice usually run 0-1 Wych squads, sometimes I go up to 2. My win ratio does fine. So clearly DE don't *need* serious assault elements to win. You should probably include them if it's a major part of your playstyle though - though I also think you need to practice with DE because they shouldn't play like BA or BT, and you should immediately smack yourself int he face every time you think 'but this isn't how I did it with Sphess Mahrines!!1!'

Playing mobile and shooty works quite well for DE - you can build a serious assault force if you wish.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

This is a list intended for a tournament wherein several of the players are going to be putting out a high volume of feel no pain. So I thought I'd up the anti infantry. I would love some input on this.

For my money the best anti-FNP tools we have are the Dissie and the Liquifier/Shattershard. That said, volume of fire works okay - but remember FNP works *way* better when the enemy is getting their regular save, and even better when that save is a 3+ like BA do.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

I know that is a pimped out sliscus unit, and I wonder how effective any of you vets have found it. If its just crap I'll go back to the reaver jet bikes option.

If that's all you're fielding Sliscus for - I think you're making an error. It's the weakest of his powers and you're not really taking advantage of his other powers nor his assault capabilities, so he feels like a point sink for you.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

Also, the list totals out a bit under 1850, leaving me enough points to add a Razorwing JF if I nix one of the Ravagers. Though it doesn't really fit with the overall pirate theme of the army, the razorwing is just an awesome unit and I am buying one tomorrow.

You should check out the Deep Strike tactics discussion (it's in Pages of Pain) if you like the idea of Sliscus, Pirates, and Razorwings. I've used it a couple of times and though I still think there's some fine tuning to do I want to take it to a tournament and see how it does.

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance: 130
Raider: racks, ff, DL : 80

I mostly like your list - but the combo of Lance with splinter racks is messing with me. I actually think there is viable use for lance + blaster (unlike many) but lance and blaster plus splinter racks screams to me that you're not totally sure what this unit will be doing. DE can try to be super generalists and adapt as needed - but I usually feel it's a weak plan and could be done better by dedicating some of your forces a little more clearly.

Oh believe me I read the hell out of that Deep strike discussion. with bt and ba I generally deepstruck with heavy ground pounders, though with BA all deepstriking (pods and packs) I always had success, or at least SPECTACULAR failure. So I love deep strike.
You seem to hate racks! I thought they'd be more useful for effing up infantry when there were no vehicles for the inner unit to shoot. Also, I thought it was a toss up between racks and night shields, and reasoned that the racks would probably be more useful.
Yeah without the reavers Sliscus doesn't get to use his contraband rule. Maybe I should pair that squad down a bit and add some reavers (I'm getting a battleforce so I'll have at least three)?
And Thor, I really appreciate all your (and everyone else's) help with this.

Oh and I should say one of those FNP armies is going to be orks. Horray! My first "shooty" army is definitely going to get some use out of its shootiness!!!

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

You seem to hate racks! I thought they'd be more useful for effing up infantry when there were no vehicles for the inner unit to shoot.

I don't hate racks...well, okay, maybe I do. Let me clarify - I love the bits for them - and I love the flavor of them, but I think they're too expensive for what they do.

Here, let's look at the "classic" Gunboat with and without splinter racks. We'll put them in rapid fire range and go to town on some classic opponent types (basically 3+ saves and 'no saves via AP') We'll ignore what the Blaster/S.Cannon does because they're unaffected by the racks - but basically they're +1 wound vs. Marines and +2 wounds versus Guard/Orks presuming the Raider moved - in case you want to work in the math) ;

10 Warriors w. Blaster and Splinter Cannon in Raider
vs. Marines - 10.6 rifles hit - 5.3 wound - 1.77 wounds after armor
vs. Guard/Orks - 10.6 rifles hit - 5.3 wounds

10 Warriors w. Blaster and Splinter Cannon in Raider w. Splinter Racks
vs. Marines - 10.6 rifles hit - 3.6 additional hits from Racks - 2.9 wounds
vs. Guard/Orks - 10.6 rifles hit - 3.6 additional hits from Racks - 8.9 wounds

So...I'm paying 10 points in order to get roughly +1 wound versus Marines and +3-4 wounds versus non marines (1.5-2 if in cover). Also, all of these benefits start to diminish rapidly the less warriors you have in the boat.

If they gave re-roll to wounds instead of to hit, or re-rolls to S.Cannons and S.Carbines I might think they were worth 10 points. But usually I'd rather not even field full squads in Raiders, and even when I do points are usually tight enough that I foresee more gain in putting those points somewhere else. If they cost 5 points I'd probably use them a lot. They're just in a grayish zone where I have doubts they're really worth what they cost - I don't always get to stay in my Raiders and keep shooting after my first rapid fire attempt - and they certainly don't pay for themselves with one volley)

DanceofDecemberSouls wrote:

Sliscus: 150

Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173

Troops:
Warriors: x9, Blaster, : 96
Raider: racks, ff, ns DL : 90
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
[b]Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Fast Attack:
Reavers: x6, x2 blasters: 162

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125 (may make this one a dedicated anti infantry raft)

Total 1849

i like this list a bit better. i would take out the DL and racks to imo there good but it limits your mobility and DE need to be able to move around and put pressure on the enemy or retreat and reposition your troops to stay alive. HL is a lot more devistating then blasters. another good option is droping your squads down to seven or so taking out racks and DL to upgrade to a sybarite and blast pistol is will make more use of your DS ability. also adding a few more true born to your squad can make them a lot more durable. you can keep on shooting without fear of losing your blasters from return fire. making the ravagers into razorwings can take up the slot of your AI pretty well, and get rid of those pesky horde armys . just throwing that out there oh keep dukes ride as it is if you can it can be your fire support

Ah. Your reasoning is sound. I don't see why they shouldn't work for at least the shardcarbines. (in the real world, there are equivalents in most first world militaries, and of course, they use all configurations of the service weapon they are intended for- for example, M16a4s (rifle) M4s (carbine) But whatever! Thinking too much today as it is!
Also loosing the splinter racks and taking the 3 ravagers over the x2 rav + Rzrwing combo would free me up to use some of these spare reavers that I'll have (I'm purchasing a battleforce to build the overall army around.)

Just got and assembled my first box of Kabalite warriors. Made my analogue for Sliscus and some of the trueborn/heavy weapons guys and regular warriors. One of the leg pieces would not fit with any of the back pieces but I tried to sort it out as best I could. Just a riflewoman model though.
Will be getting a lot of the rest on tuesday and wednesday. So excited.

Here's a thought
HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, Venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x2 carbines, x2 splinter cannons, venom, splinter cannon: 143

Troops:
Warriors: x10, Blaster, Dark Lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff, DL : 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80 (or this: X10 wyches, x2 razorflails, Hekatrix, agoniser, haywire grenades, blast pistol- raider - 218)
Warriors: x10, shredder, splinter cannon : 110
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125
Total: 1834

Input?

Second Iteration
Hq: Sliscus150
Elite:
Trueborn x4, x4 blaster, venom, x2 spc- 185
Truebornx4, x4 blaster, venom, x2 spc- 185
Truebornx4, x2 carbines, x2 spc, venom x2 spc- 143
Troops:
Warriors 1- x10, blaster, dl, raider ff- 200
Warriors 2- x10, blaster, dl, raider ff- 200
Warriors 3- x10, blaster, dl, raider ff- 200
Warriors 4- x10, shredder, spc, raider ff- 175
Heavy Support:
Ravager- ff, ns- 125
Ravager- ff, ns- 125
Razorwing JF, x1 shatterfield missile-155
Total 1843

Ok, here is what I am going with. I have all the models (some assembled and some on their way in the mail.), I couldn't afford a razowing so I'm sticking with the x3 ravagers ( I realized i needed another box of kabalite warriors and a raider to fill out my troops needs).
Thanks for all your feedback so far. I hope I give the Dark Eldar a good (i.e, sinister and lancetastic) showing on September 10th.

HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Elites:
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, haywire grenades Venom, splintercannon: 181
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, haywire grenades venom, splintercannon: 181
Trueborn: x4, x2 carbines, x2 splinter cannons, venom, splinter cannon: 143

Troops:
Warriors: x10, Blaster, Dark Lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff, DL : 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff,: 80
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: racks, ff: 80
Warriors: x10, shredder, splinter cannon : 110
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125
Total: 1850

Here's another reshuffling of things. It has a devastator squad!

Devastator List:
HQ- Sliscus 150

Elite
Trueborn: x4 trueborn, x4 blasters, haywire grenades venom x2 spc- 181
Trueborn: x4 trueborn, x2 carbines, x2 spc, venom x2 spc- 143
Trueborn: x 7 trueborn, x4 blasters, x2 dl, dracon blast pistol, raider - 274

Troops:
Warriors: x10, blaster, dl, raider: 190
Warriors: x10, blaster, dl, raider: 190
Warriors, x10, blaster, dl, raider, enhanced ether sail: 195
Warriors, x 5, blaster, sybarite, blast pistol, venom x2 spc: 150

HS:
Ravager 125
Ravager 125
Ravager 125

Total 1848

I like the first list better.

Is the dev type trueborn squad just too much or going to get shot to pieces as soon as it touches the ground?
oh and Thor- thanks for your help. I'm making a really kick butt army that's totally against my former play style and I don't believe it would be anywhere near this good without the help I've gotten from you and the other DE players on this forum.

The first list is just a little more focused for what it is. The lances on the Warriors make sense because clearly you'll not be DSing with them, or if you do they'll stay embarked. The Trueborn however clearly need to hop out, and at that point by the time you have either a DS and hop out, or field them on the table and move them into position you're wasting a lot of points on either the lances or the Blasters.

Good point.

The final list?

Everything arrived today, have to go buy a few more raiders from my flgs but other than that, here's what I'm building.

HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Elites:
Trueborn: x5, x4 blasters, dracon, blast pistol Venom, splintercannon: 210
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x4, x2 carbines, x2 splinter cannons, venom, splinter cannon: 143

Troops:
Warriors: x10, Blaster, Dark Lance : 130
Raider: ff, DL : 70
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: ff,: 70
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: ff: 70
Warriors: x10, shredder, splinter cannon : 110
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125
Total: 1849

HQ:
Sliscus: 150
Elites:
Trueborn: x5, x4 blasters, dracon, blast pistol Venom, splintercannon: 210
Trueborn: x4, x4 blasters, venom, splintercannon: 173
Trueborn: x6, x4 carbines, x2 splinter cannons, raider, ff: 182
Troops:
Warriors: x10, Blaster, sybarite, bp Dark Lance : 155
Raider: DL enhanced aether sails : 65
Warriors: x10, blaster, dark lance : 130
Raider: ff,: 70
Warriors x 5, blaster, sybarite bp, venom spc: 150
Warriors: x10, shredder, splinter cannon : 110
Raider: racks, ff: 80

Heavy Support:
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns: 125
Ravager: ff, ns, 125
Total: 1850

how's that?

Hey.

You really seem to be wanting to play with the Duke Sliscus. Id say drop him. Get a cheap HQ here and try to fit in perhaps just one unit of 9 Wyches kitted with haywires, hekatrix with agonser in a raider etc. That with a Haemonculus is as always very good. One other thing i would think about is the amount of warriors in each squad. Ive tried both 10 and 5 and i am never really satisfied when bringing the larger amount.

Tonight i have been putting up ideas in peoples threads insteed of just leaving a little message. I hope you dont mind that i post a revised list of yours with what i think would be cool to run, and pretty effective. And besides that trueborns should come with blasters nothing else. Either take 3 blasters on 3 trueborns or 4 blasters on 4 trueborns.

There is one more thing i think you should give some thought. That is the number of troop choices you are bringing. At the amount of points you are playing 5-6 should be mandatory as a DE player. 6 is always to prefer since we have so good troops but if its impossible to fit that last one in then go with 5. In this version i dropped down one elite slot just to fill up the troops considering there are often so many scenarios where objectives etc are keys to victory. You still only lose 2 blaster on it and gain another scoring unit.



Anyway here is my suggestion.


Duke Sliscus 150

3 trueborns: 3 blasters in venom with 2 splinter cannons 146
3 trueborns: 3 blasters in venom with 2 splinter cannons 146

5 warriors: 1 blaster in venom with 2 splinter cannons 125
5 warriors: 1 blaster in venom with 2 splinter cannons 125
5 warriors: 1 blaster in raider with lance and flickerfield 130
5 warriors: 1 blaster in raider with lance and flickerfield 130
9 warriors: 1 blaster in raider with lance and flickerfield 166 (dukes dudes/dudettes)
10 wyches: 2 hydra gauntlets, heka with agoniser, haywire in raider with lance 230

3 reavers: 1 heat lance 78
3 reavers: 1 heat lance 78

ravager: 3 lances, flickerfield 115
ravager: 3 lances, flickerfield 115
ravager: 3 lances, flickerfield 115

total: 1849
Models: 63


I really hope you don't mind that i posted a list as a suggestion. Its fun to make lists and when people are bringing something to the table its even more fun to try and experiment and see what one can do with it. 1850 is not a normal limit for myself. Either 1500/1750 or 2000. Mostly 2000 being played but i think we got all covered in this list. Of course if it was a 2k list there would be a third unit of trueborns.

There is currently 27 lances in the army that are able to fire at 16 targets every turn. 4 Venoms should be enough aswell, my limit is 5. I just can't manage to bring more then that to the table. It feels terrible.

Anyway that was a couple of cents hope you like it.

No that's fine and it does look like a fun list. Unfortunately I don't have any reavers. Such is life. I will get some soon though and see how that plays for me.

I just thought of something and I wish I had the time and the money before the tournament (i.e, tomorrow) to change things up a bit. I could have gone with all raiders in this list and had more points for upgrades for my heavies and transports. Oh well. Well, here it is, what I'm going with tomorrow.

Hq- Sliscus- 150
Elites:
Trueborn- x5, x4 blasters, dracon blast pistol, venom x2 spc 205
Trueborn- x4, x4 blasters, venom x2 spc- 173
Trueborn- x6, x 4 shardcarbines, x 2 spc, raider flickerfield- 182
Troops:
Warriors- x5, blaster, dracon bp, venom x2 spc- 150
Warriors- x10, blaster, dl, raider flickerfield- 200
Warriors- x10, blaster, dl, raider flickerfield- 200
Warriors- x10, shredder, spc, raider, flicker field, - 165
Heavy Support:
Ravager- 125
Ravager- 125
Razorwing- x2 necrotoxin missiles, x2 shatterfield missiles, splinter cannon, - 175
1850 points of toxic win

Wish me luck and lots of victims!
Thanks for the help! I'll post pics and bat reps tomorrow.

RESULTS!
https://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1214-1850-tournament-results-pain-everywhere#12315