HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]

I have a game tonight vs. CSM with this list:

Quote :

1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster, Haywire = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

I'll let you guys know what he takes and how it goes

Regarding nightshields in a Tau + Mechdar heavy environment:

having a double-plus-good coversave at your disposal is good, if used properly against Tau / Eldar, as it forces them to expend resources that would be better used elsewhere.

Tau: Use of markerlights to "prevent" jink - also prevents use of markerlights for boosting ballistic skill; if you're not jinking he's firing at BS 5+. Not the best consolation, but markerlights are typically very easy to remove as long as you can do so without putting yourself in range of the rest of the Tau army.

Eldar: if you're jinking anything deployed turn 1 and making saves, you're going to encourage the use of the ignores cover sheilds - thus allowing any heat lances coming in from reserve / blasters coming in via deepstrike unimpeded access to their fancy tanks.

...of course, as with all upgrades: Build a solid core army without shields first. Then with remaining points, season to taste



I note that you're really not making use of our new ability to take venoms as FA choices - I would suggest that a 65pt venom FA choice may make a better AI investment than a full raider squad (if you want to go this route...) - 1/3 the cost, better range and mobility, there are trade-offs, but from an efficiency point of view, when you can have 6 fast attack choices.... wow - 3 of those in lieu of (1) raider squad? 6 hullpoints, 36 shots @ 36" w/ 5++!

What resources are you referring to? They're going to be trying to knock out your ships. Forcing them to Jink is one thing, but having a Tau player who doesn't know how to deploy properly vs. Dark Eldar is another. You're pretty much banking to have your opponents make a mistake, but canny Tau players know how to setup kill lanes so you're unable to access his units. The sheer volume of twin-linked SMS and 36" missile fire will be enough to put down DE vehicles even thought Ignore Cover.

Sure, Serpents Shields can be down, but they can still Jink in response to direct action. If they moved, a 3+ Holo save is going to get really annoying real quick.

Good point about the FA choice, but I'm not entirely sold on that particular formation yet. The 6 FA to me just looks like it wants players to put points into that direction, but I'm not sure just yet. 4x additional Venoms look good to have on top of 2x Razorwings while maintaining a high degree of lances, but at that point I think you'll need more points more than anything else.

Mirrored:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-realspace-raiders.html

We've all probably looked at it by now and I know the thought of having 6 FA slots makes some Reaver-happy players foam at the mouth. However, we must analyze this in an intelligent manner and verify if the FA slot does indeed allow us to be competitive.

First, the Realspace Raiders Detachment and what it offers you:
-Basically the same army except you have 6 FA slots to play with.
-Restrictions: All units in this Detachment must have the Dark Eldar Faction (or have no Faction).
-Benefit - Realspace Raider: If this Detachment is your Primary Detachment, you can re-roll the result when rolling on the Warlord Traits table in the Codex: Dark Eldar.
-Benefit - Hunter from the Shadows: During the entire first game turn, and during any turn in which the Night Fighting rules are in effect, all Troops units from this Detachment have a 5+ cover save, and all other units from this Detachment have a 6+ cover save.

The first thing I have to ask myself is.. if I buy Raiders as dedicated transports for my troop choices, are they considered to be in 5+ cover? Not the guys inside, but the Raiders themselves. I would like to think yes because you're buying them in the troop slot.

It goes without saying that while Hunter from the Shadows can be good, I think we can all agree that it's not entirely game-changing. All other units having a 6+ cover means absolutely jack crap with all things considered, especially when most buildings/ruins is 4+ and that you'd be stupid not deploying with at least some kind of cover. No one really shoots in the wide-open field, so I don't think that the cover saves will be entirely useful. If the 5+ cover also affects Raiders, I can see it being slightly useful as you can decide to not Jink and just take the cover save so you don't need to Snapfire. Whether or not this is a good idea is also questionable.

As for the whole re-rolling on the DE Warlord Traits, this is a huge flop for anyone not taking a melee-centric Warlord. In the list that I'm going to post with this detachment in mind, 4 of the 6 traits available to me are absolutely useless. The only one I'm looking forward to is 2 - Labyrinthine Cunning, since it 's pretty much the best trait in the tree. The ability to re-roll Seize, Night Fighting and Reserves is just godlike. Towering Arrogance can be decent in later game when all your crap is getting shot to death, so a bubble of Fearless might not be too bad, but if you get to the later parts of the game to begin with, you will probably already have Fearless from Power from Pain. Overall, the Warlord Traits presented here is a huge flop, and the designers responsible need to be sent to the Wych pits (so the Wyches can tear them apart for all the unneeded nerfs).

So what does your list look like with 6 FA slots? A lot of people are thinking about tons of MSU Reavers, but I'm not sure if that's all that great. Others are thinking 120 point HWB Scourges to go with their Ravagers, but where are they getting the points for all that? So the question to ask yourself is this: Is this detachment and the 6 FA slots really worth not having Objsec and re-roll on the Strategic tree? I would love having almost ALL of the traits from there.

Anyways, here's what my pure DE list can look like under Realspace Raiders:

1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster = 110

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances/NS = 155
Razorwing, Lances/NS = 155
Venom SC = 65
Venom SC = 65
Venom SC = 65
Venom SC = 65

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

With this list, you have the MSU playstyle of Warriors in Raiders, giving you 14 lances on the opening salvo, followed by 48 Venom shots coming from your supporting fire. Is it more effective than my battle-forged pure Dark Eldar list I posted previously? I personally don't think because I don't think it has the staying power or the objective-capturing flexibility. The warlord traits alone is enough to deter me from building this style of list, but I'm throwing this out there so people can analyze for themselves.

Let me know what you think.

As I've backed away from regular tournaments (time constraints and various annoyances to the game)  I do find myself wondering why any "Dark Eldar" player goes at all. If DE are on the board its to provide hire cars for the Eldar. The dark kin taxi service! Its frustrating that Eldar are just so much better.

Part of the reason I stopped regular tournies was the use of allies and I strive to play fun and semi-competitive games without using them.

So what playstyle and tactics would a competitive, tourney pure de list use? And if not said already, what would your favourite, most effective pure list look like?

HERO wrote:

The first thing I have to ask myself is.. if I buy Raiders as dedicated transports for my troop choices, are they considered to be in 5+ cover?  Not the guys inside, but the Raiders themselves.  I would like to think yes because you're buying them in the troop slot.

They certainly do.

Quote :

Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit’s Army List Entry will include a Transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.

HERO wrote:

and never forget that Rapid Fire can now shoot from 24", just in case you want to get off a few wounds.

HERO, I don't understand what you mean here?

LSK wrote:

HERO, I don't understand what you mean here?

its not "new" that was a change from 5th to 6th, but some folks still seem to mess it up

@HERO:

I see a very nasty Tau force quite regularly. It was actually a topic of discussion on BoLS about a month ago.... Farsight w/out the 'bomb' - just a strong, mobile & dakka heavy crisis suit list.

regarding jinking & nightshields versus Tau:
Note that shooting an AV10 target with TL:HYMP (twin linked High-Yield Missile Pods, which in my opinion are the nasiest broadside loadout).

No cover (2 markerlights): 12 shots (one broadside team) = 6 expected HP lost (98% to lose 3).
4+ coversave (jink, no bonus): 12 shots = 3 expected HP lost (61% to lose 3)
3+ coversave (jink, 'shields): 12 shots = 2 expected HP lost (32% to lose 3)

Thus if you're able to remove a unit of markerlights, without overexposing yourself turn one, it is a must. Against our army, the markerlights must be on the "front line" - at that 36" range, else we can simply stay out of markerlight range & shoot at crisis suits: Either the suits are out front, "screening" the pathfinders & thus by engaging unsupported suits at max range we can stay out of pathfinder range; or the suits are behind the pathfinders, allowing us to engage the pathfinders while exposing ourselves to only limited return fire.

LSK wrote:

HERO wrote:

and never forget that Rapid Fire can now shoot from 24", just in case you want to get off a few wounds.

HERO, I don't understand what you mean here?

I mean that you're able to move and shoot from 24" away with Rapid Fire weapons which is a change from 5th to 6th.  If you started in 6th, this will not be new to you.

It helps the dudes inside the Raiders and Venoms.

Grub wrote:

As I've backed away from regular tournaments (time constraints and various annoyances to the game)  I do find myself wondering why any "Dark Eldar" player goes at all. If DE are on the board its to provide hire cars for the Eldar. The dark kin taxi service! Its frustrating that Eldar are just so much better.

Part of the reason I stopped regular tournies was the use of allies and I strive to play fun and semi-competitive games without using them.

So what playstyle and tactics would a competitive, tourney pure de list use? And if not said already, what would your favourite, most effective pure list look like?

I agree with you, because one of my good friends considers himself an Eldar Autarch first and foremost and myself the Archon. He's so happy with his book that it bothers me, not because of jealousy, but because we've been playing competitive for years and we consider ourselves equally matched. It's aggravating to see tournament results knowing that its not the player, but the book's inherent flaws that keep them from the top tables.

This is the list I ran last night and I had great success with:

Quote :

1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Keep in mind that the Gunboats for 175 is a meta-call. Some of you might want to drop the gunboats down to normal either..

More Venom SC for 120.
More Raider Lance/AS for 120.
Less troops entirely for more... 9 Reavers (174 with Heat Lances), Scourges with HWB (120) or Blasterborn (195).
You can also choose to drop the Razorwings entirely and take more of all of the above, which also frees up FA choices for more Scourges or Reavers.

I personally love the way my pure list worked last night, but if I was entering a tournament around here (where Mechdar and Tau are aplenty), I would replace all the Venoms with Raiders.

HERO wrote:

LSK wrote:

HERO wrote:

and never forget that Rapid Fire can now shoot from 24", just in case you want to get off a few wounds.

HERO, I don't understand what you mean here?

I mean that you're able to move and shoot from 24" away with Rapid Fire weapons which is a change from 5th to 6th.  If you started in 6th, this will not be new to you.

Ok thanks for the highlights!
(I played 2nd ed when my CSM got -1 BS when firing long range 30-60cm, and then made a jump straight to 6th ed!)

clever handle wrote:

LSK wrote:

HERO, I don't understand what you mean here?

its not "new" that was a change from 5th to 6th, but some folks still seem to mess it up

@HERO:

I see a very nasty Tau force quite regularly.  It was actually a topic of discussion on BoLS about a month ago.... Farsight w/out the 'bomb' - just a strong, mobile & dakka heavy crisis suit list.

regarding jinking & nightshields versus Tau:
Note that shooting an AV10 target with TL:HYMP (twin linked High-Yield Missile Pods, which in my opinion are the nasiest broadside loadout).

No cover (2 markerlights): 12 shots (one broadside team) = 6 expected HP lost (98% to lose 3).
4+ coversave (jink, no bonus): 12 shots = 3 expected HP lost (61% to lose 3)
3+ coversave (jink, 'shields): 12 shots = 2 expected HP lost (32% to lose 3)

Thus if you're able to remove a unit of markerlights, without overexposing yourself turn one, it is a must.  Against our army, the markerlights must be on the "front line" - at that 36" range, else we can simply stay out of markerlight range & shoot at crisis suits: Either the suits are out front, "screening" the pathfinders & thus by engaging unsupported suits at max range we can stay out of pathfinder range; or the suits are behind the pathfinders, allowing us to engage the pathfinders while exposing ourselves to only limited return fire.

Oh, I agree. The list I've been running with Tau is this..

Quote :

1848
12 KP

HQ:
Commander = 160
Shield Generator, Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Drone Controller, NW System Jammer, MSSS

Fireblade = 60

TROOPS:
12x Fire Warriors = 108
12x Fire Warriors = 108
6x Fire Warriors = 54

ELITE:
XV104 Riptide = 190
Ion Accelerator, Early Warning Override

XV104 Riptide = 190
Ion Accelerator, Early Warning Override

3x Crisis Suits = 144
TL Missile Pods
BS Filter, Early Warning Override

FAST:
12x Marker Drones = 168

HEAVY:
3x XV88 Broadside = 210
High-yield Missile Pod
Target Locks

3x XV88 Broadside = 210
High-yield Missile Pod
Target Locks

Hammerhead Gunship = 146
SMS, Submunition Rounds
BS Filter, Disruption Pod

FORTIFICATIONS:
Aegis Defense Line + Quad-gun = 100

It's a pretty general list so it fights well vs. everything, but more so vs. Dark Eldar than other armies out there.

Does your meta still take Pathfinders? I haven't seen anyone take Pathfinders is forever, since Marker Drones are stronger in almost every single way with Jetpack movement. The buffmander has the option to join them as well, drastically increasing their chances to hit and since they can pop in and out of cover, your return fire is just really subpar.

I understand that the need to kill Pathfinders is great, but like you said, they only expedite a single target's doom. The raw amount of shots coming from Broadsides, SMS and other items in the army should be enough to do outrageous amounts to DE.

The best way around this is simply focus firing the longest-reaching elements of the army first: Drones (if possible), Broadsides and Crisis Suits. Lances into T4 multi-wound models even if they're behind cover, and even Venom fire can do wonders if you force enough wounds. The objective is to just do as much damage to single unit to render it ineffective, especially the Target Lock ones as they're capable of taking down multiple ships per turn.

Hey sorry maybe off topic but is there a 7th ed vassal yet? I can only seem to find 6th

theredone wrote:

Hey sorry maybe off topic but is there a 7th ed vassal yet? I can only seem to find 6th

Very off-topic. Please don't post something non-strategic/tactical related in this army thread in the future.

Here is the link to 40K Vassal on Reddit, you'll find everything you need there. There is no 7th Ed. currently as the lead developer is on hiatus.

Hero, I enjoy your list and they will give me some guidance on building mine. Quick question. I notice you run your archon without a shadowfield. Do you ever run into problems of him or her dying to fast or because of the deepstrike you are able to keep him out of harms way?

pehldog63 wrote:

Hero, I enjoy your list and they will give me some guidance on building mine. Quick question. I notice you run your archon without a shadowfield. Do you ever run into problems of him or her dying to fast or because of the deepstrike you are able to keep him out of harms way?

Nah, his entire purpose in life is to guide a unit down and nothing more. Well, besides a BS7 Blaster shot from 18" away! If he dies, he dies, but hopefully he'll make his points back guiding the blasterborn unit down and blowing up whatever he's shooting at.

He failed miserably in my last game when he came down and didn't do jackshit vs. a unit of Oblits, but at least that took some of their attention off of the rest of the army because I now have 6 lances prowling behind the backlines. That's absolutely huge, having essentially 2 Ravagers behind someone's backfield making them cry.

That, in itself, is well worth the 110 points you invest in him. If you do take a Shadowfield, then I suggest him leading a unit of Wraithguard, so he can tank all the shots coming at him from the front. That's the only instance I would take SF on him, not for combat, but so he can tank shots until the end of the phase from more important targets (e.g. Wraithguard, Fire Dragons).

Good point. Thanks for the info.

Mirrored:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-some-random-helpful-tips-1.html

I typed a good amount today on the forums, and here is what I had to say about a variety of subjects.  All of which pertains to my idea of a successful Kabal list, since all of these are common elements in my army lists.

On Aethersails..

Quote :

I would argue that Aethersails are even better in a DS list because you can correct a bad scatter with the extra range.

While AS is not mandatory, they're cheap enough to be spammed on almost all of our vehicles.  I would say they're more useful on back-field captures units like 5-man lancers, and less useful on gunboats because they really want to be moving 6" and rapid-firing every turn.

Either way, if you have the points, buy into them.  At 5 points, I use them as space fillers that give me more strategic value than a single Night Shield.

On Knights or LR spam..

Quote :

With the loss of reliable mass haywires, the Achilles is literally a hard counter to everything in our book.

If you're going to be playing against that crap, I would really suggest you look into Eldar allies.  Why?  Because they have access to S10 AP2 Distort weapons that don't care about the likes of Achilles and other LR-variants.  Not to mention we have a very solid way to delivering them to areas they will find most displeasing, on the side, rear, in cover, however we want.  With the Autarch in our midst, we can also deliver other popular Eldar weapons in there, and with greater accuracy. Units like Fire Dragons do wonders vs. the standard non-Achilles LR.  These elements are also our best answer to Knights, since you're just as dangerous in melee with Meltabombs.

Now that you said you want pure DE, that, my friend, is going to be really bad for you.  The only thing you can do at this point is load up on lances, blasters, blasterborn, and heat lances.  Forget the Scourges, I seriously think they're utter crap and people are just excited to use them because of their price drop.  At the end of the day, they're still 5 T3 dudes with cover saves that will die to any kind of retaliatory anti-infantry shooting.

Quote :

But we're not concerned at all with LR rush, as we have lances for days and even more once they get within Blaster range.  That's why you slowly push against that kind of list because at best, you can use the terrain to your advantage as you get closer and closer towards them.

For example, this is the pure DE list I play in an mechanized meta:

Updated: 10/14/14
1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster, Haywire = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Your opening reply is 15 lances and as you reach the 18" range mark, you're adding +6.  Razors coming in gives you +4, the Blasterborn unit itself gives you +6 (Blasterchron and Raider).  By T2, you can have 31 lances at your opponent if nothing dies (tall order, but it exists).  You still have enough anti-infantry via the gunboats to do something, but you can always drop the entire unit down and save 165 points (enough for another Razorwing or a unit of 9x Reavers with Heat Lances if you also cut some sails).

The fact of the matter is:  DE does not care about Land Raiders.  To us, they're overpriced Chimeras because you're essentially shooting at the same thing.  As an Dark Eldar player.. when life throws you lemons, shoot more dark lances.

I'll quote something I said in another thread:
(see below on Lances)

Which is another reason why I don't like Scourges with HWB. They do absolutely jack crap to a lot of the targets I listed above.

Out of everything your opponents can bring, the one thing that really stands out is the ridiculous Achilles.  That thing was made to reduce everything that we have to paperweight, and I god damn hate the designers for that.  Before, our reply was a quick swift kick in the nuts via Wyches with Haywires, but now we have to rely on Eldar allies to bring in Wraithguard.  The same can apply with Imperial Knights, but because you can pin-point drop the Blasterchron's unit, you can get easy shots from the back.  That and the fact you can use your speed to get around the void shields sometimes.

Eldar just brings so much to the table for us, especially with the Autarch's Fusion Gun and Archon's WWP/Blaster combo.  It allows us to bring in reserves with consistency, gives us Wraithguard, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons, all of which just reduce mech lists to molten slag.  The Wraithguard are especially effective, as you can take a big unit of 10 of them, run them with a Spiritseer (Iyandnen CAD), attach the WWP/Blasterchron and you're good to go.  Now you're walking around with T6 3+ and a Archon tanking all the hits with Shadowfield from the front, after you've casted Invisibility on yourself, forcing everything to snap shot at you.  It's ridiculous, and can single-handily walk over the entire LR force by itself.

The Wraithknight also allows you to threaten AV14 turn after turn from a distance, can keep pace with the rest of your army, and punch out the Achilles in close combat because of S10 MC and a decent amount of attacks.

If you want to play competitive, play competitive.  Taking a pure DE list is not as competitive as Eldar allies, but it does have answers specifically for the Land Raider.  Vs. the Achilles, you have to look elsewhere.

On Mechdar with 2x Wraithknights..

Quote :

That list exists soley to punish 2 specific lists in the meta: Mechdar that's not running WK, and pure Tau, as both of these have no solid solution vs. 2x WK.

I agree with Mandor in saying that the Wraithknight is superior.  He just offers so much more to the table not only in durability (vs. most things in the meta as opposed to niche things like Agonizers), threat range and better weapons.  The fact that he's S10 also gives him dominance over T5 mult-wound and just stomps the crap outta any vehicle in close combat.  Being completely immune to bolters, while hilarious, is not as impactful as a meltaguns and lances only wounding on 4s.

On the importance of Dark Lances vs. poison weapons..

Quote :

Then I would argue he doesn't have enough anti-tank and an over saturation of poison.

S8 AP2 Lance is not just our answer for vehicles btw, it's the answer to everything in life, Terminators, Bikes, Riptides, Dreadknights, Wraithknights that are exposed, basically anything T4 multi-wound (Oblits, Broadsides, Nobz), the list goes on and on.

We have plenty of anti-infantry in our army, and while that can be a good thing, it can be misleading when designing your list. We have to maximize on our lances if we're to make a big impression on targets with 2+ AS because we don't have reliable melee solutions to those. Poison is good, but not enough to punch holes in what we really need to down in most cases.  That's why you must have a healthy amount of lances in your army.

Which is another reason why I don't like Scourges with HWB. They do absolutely jack crap to a lot of the targets I listed above.

On Archon and Shadowfields..

Quote :

Nah, his entire purpose in life is to guide a unit down and nothing more. Well, besides a BS7 Blaster shot from 18" away! If he dies, he dies, but hopefully he'll make his points back guiding the blasterborn unit down and blowing up whatever he's shooting at.

He failed miserably in my last game when he came down and didn't do jackshit vs. a unit of Oblits, but at least that took some of their attention off of the rest of the army because I now have 6 lances prowling behind the backlines. That's absolutely huge, having essentially 2 Ravagers behind someone's backfield making them cry.

That, in itself, is well worth the 110 points you invest in him. If you do take a Shadowfield, then I suggest him leading a unit of Wraithguard, so he can tank all the shots coming at him from the front. That's the only instance I would take SF on him, not for combat, but so he can tank shots until the end of the phase from more important targets (e.g. Wraithguard, Fire Dragons).

I have a battle report up on my blog vs. CSM:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-1.html

Enjoy the read, and let me know if you have any feedback here.

Here's another 1850 game of Pure DE vs. Tau.

His list had some weird FW elements and only a single unit of Broadsides, take from it what you will:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-2.html

Quote :

1850
DE CAD*

HQ:
Llama = 10

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 3x Blaster, Venom SC = 165
5x Trueborn, 3x Blaster, Venom SC = 165

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Playing with a new list lately, greatly increased the firepower while dropping the WWP Archon.

Firepower Analysis:
-Opening volley sees 24 Poisoned shots from 36-48", 15 Dark Lances from 36-48" reach.
-Upon closing into Blaster range on T2, lances are increased to 31 should both flyers come in, or else we're packing 8x S6 AP5 large blast Monoscythes.
-Three full gunboats gives me 18 BS4 twin-linked shots from each boat, providing me with 54 shots in total from 12" range.  If the targets are beyond Rapid Fire, we're looking at 27 twin-linked shots which is still very respectable.

Current record for this list is 14-0, both on Vassal and IRL.  I managed to completely table a 4 WS/2 WK list the other day off a few lucky lance shots, and the over-confidence in my Eldar opponent for refusing to Jink with some of his Wave Serpents.  Tisk tisk.

My most played against armies: Orks, Tau, Tyranids, MEQ (all flavors) and Eldar.  Matchups in terms of difficulty is still Eldar > Tau > Tyranids > MEQ > Orks.  Where have all the IG players gone I wonder?  Probably pissed off their name got changed to something no one even remembers.

I like your list. Obviously it is a very effective. When you play against Tyranids, are your lances what take them down more effectivly or the splinter fire? I ask because I am having a hard time against them and don't know the right ratio of lances to splinter fire

Nariaklizhar wrote:

I like your list. Obviously it is a very effective. When you play against Tyranids, are your lances what take them down more effectivly or the splinter fire? I ask because I am having a hard time against them and don't know the right ratio of lances to splinter fire

Tyranids should be a relatively good matchup for us because most of our shooting negates their biggest strength, which is high Toughness.  Personally, I enjoy having more lances against all armies vs. having more poison.  The realm of having a lot of poison shots forces our army into too much of a polarized playstyle.  By that, I mean we either do really well against certain matchups, or just get completely tabled because we don't have enough firepower to deal with Mech.

Since I only play all-comers lists, I believe that the best lists can take on anyone.  To answer your question about Tyranids specifically, I think lances are a must against their army.  You hit on 3s, wound on 2s against just about everything they have, and you can shoot them from very far away.  Tyranids have to come pretty close to you to do most of their work, and that's when you can pounce on them with your Warriors, gunboats, and other units.

Dakka flyrants for example, absolutely hate having to deal with Dark Eldar units because we're generally poor targets to shoot at.  He's putting dakka into a 120 boat, or at most 170 dollar boat?  OK, let him.  We Jink as hard as we can and we take the fire he's going to put out.  At worse we get popped out of our transports, at best we survive and next round we return fire because the guys inside don't give a damn about Jinks.  His range is 18", which means that a gunboat moves 6" next round and all of a sudden, you're in Rapid Fire range with all of your Poison.  You can bet your ass you're going to force Jinks from him if you're going to threaten him with this much firepower, especially with Razorwings coming in to join the fun as well.

You let rip, he holds his breath because Twin-Linked gunboats will put the fear of death into T6 3+ AS flying, and once he's grounded he eats a billion lances with no saves allowed.  All of the big fatties in the Tyranid army fears our poison and lances equally.  If they don't, then you need to teach them a lesson through good target priority.  Even if they have Venomthropes or whatnot can are sporting healthy cover saves, you're still forcing enough wounds through that he's forced to roll saves.  The more saves he's forced to roll, the higher the chances he's going to fail and take wounds.  If your army lacks the firepower to force these saves in the first place, that's when you have to evaluate on whether or not you're designing a solid list.

The Tyranid threat is very real, but only in the fact that the more Flyrants he has means the better you trade.  Your firepower is more effective than his, and also a lot cheaper than his.  If he complicates things with Lictors in cover, out of line of sight or something else, that's perfectly fine.  You can risk sacking a few of your cheaper boats by putting them in front so he can't get to your more expensive stuff.  Besides, your firepower should be enough to put down Lictors if you can see them, especially since they'll be in immediate threat range of your Rapid Fire weapons.  Enough wounds kills anything, 2+ cover or not, and lances instantly kill Lictors.

Read some of my earlier BRs:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/01/a-quick-word-on-nids.html (old book)
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-2.html (new book)
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-1.html (new book)

It was even a bigger turkey shoot last edition because we had Night Shields that reduced enemy fire by 6". I really miss those days.. I thought it was a really unique mechanic and we had it since 3rd Edition. Anyway, you shoot enough shots and people will notice.  When life throws you lemons, shoot more dark lances.

That's great advise HERO, thanks!

Totally wish we had the old night shields, made SMS less scary. To this day I still think they have a 24 inch range. Anyhow, I am finding that if I have a big ass "shoot me" unit, my boats do netter. A few things I have tried: corpseclaw thief (awesome sauce" and for pure lulz a few Knights and a Wraithseer. The CCT formation is pretty fly. Once you get past the point sink and see it on the table, it covers a lot of real estate, forcing your opp to deal or be herded. GK can be a problem but I find we have so much shooting that the Cat and Mouse game works.

Just wanted to put an alternate take on a few units. Reavers, I never put guns on them and love 9 with caltrops. They will evaporate invs units with how.

Incubi. I love these guys; some of the coolest models ever. They are hard to play. You want to run them up and get them some ap2 love. Sadly, this never works out. I like running 4 and either an archon or succ in a venom. They typically don't do crap till turn four or so when they can go total ape crap bananas on the back field. They kinda loiter turn two then motor up on three for a charge on four. In several games they have been clutch. Taking overwatch with fea less Kabs and then giving a unit hard prison &$¥ is good times.

Other than that, I think the gunboat and venom setup is tight and cheap.

I am going to try a Kab blob bomb with a spiritseer in the mix. Just wish the masque detachment wasn't so static and clunky in org.