HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]

How are the flying tyrants taking lance fire after being grounded? He tests at the end of the phase and regardless of result can go straight back to flying in his turn - facing any direction he likes

True that, got to assault his ass.

Massaen wrote:

How are the flying tyrants taking lance fire after being grounded? He tests at the end of the phase and regardless of result can go straight back to flying in his turn - facing any direction he likes

You have 31 lances, you make him eat it all of it. Who cares if you need 6s to hit, I've never had a Tyrant survive a full round of shooting from my army.

Interesting list, very similar to what Thor runs if I recall correctly.

This is a very impressive list. I will definitely have to try it out, the amount of Lance fire is crazy! In a recent local tournament where we used missions that were about holding down objectives and getting points for it every turn, I really learned the newfound resilience of our humble Kabalite Warriors with the new Power from Pain - this makes the list especially formidable, as it provides even more cheap, small and relatively unthreatening targets on their own. However there's so much of them! Who will waste a round of shooting at one of many small squads of Kabalites when there's more perceived threats on the battlefield?

How would you adapt it for 1500? I see the option of simply cutting down the 10 man gunboats into the same 5 man boats, and for the remaining points adding another Venom in Fast attack - perhaps even give it to Admiral Lhamaen to ride around in! This way the lance output remains the same, the amount of boats on the field increases by one and only the poisoned shots output suffers a little.

Mush, I don't think so. We have disagreed before on how to play DE before so unless he's doing something new, I don't think we run similar play styles. I still have some of the comments you made on my blog during our 5th ed killing spree, and you'll see that my lists have hardly changed.

As for 1500, I would probably do 2 gunboats, 2 Lance boats, 2 venoms, and the standard 2 razor wings and 3 ravagers. I would post a list but I'm on my phone.

Thor's a big on min warrior squads with blasters in lance raiders. He also tends to run 3 lance ravagers and two razorwings with lances. That being said if I recall correctly he's not a fan of gunboats and prefers to run a venoms or two instead with min blaster warriors. He probably would take a grot unit with succubus for a counter assault element. Its the min warriors in raiders/razorwings/ravager and with loads if lances/blasters that made me draw the comparison.I guess its pretty standard nowadays.

As for 5th I miss your dual succubus lists!

One of these days my friend, the Wyches will return.

I don't know why Thor hates on gunboats, their twin linked firepower scares the crap out of flyrants and demons in my area. They know that in order to get shots or get in combat, they gotta get close. Once they get close, they eat super accurate poison fire. I think this might be a metacall,  since more venom means more threat at range, but even 3 gunboat upgrades over 3 min blaster raider and venom equates to 150 points. That's an extra razor wing or blaster born venom at best. I don't see those as powerful as tri gunboat, especially when they can still threaten well while jinking.

That's just me though maybe. On my phone.

HERO, ever considered putting Fire Dragons in an empty Raider with a WWP Archon? Sounds pretty dirty to me.

Dirtydeeds wrote:

HERO, ever considered putting Fire Dragons in an empty Raider with a WWP Archon?  Sounds pretty dirty to me.

Of course man, I think every Archon and their mother has thought about this combo. I think that would take the list in a different direction and would invest a lot of points in off-board support instead of outright shooting the enemy to death.

I will most certainly work, but I think it needs the right list design to support it. You would have to ally in Eldar and that will take points out of your firepower at all rangebands while you hold the Fire Dragon and the now-more-expensive HQ off the battlefield. My original list ran a WWP Archon with Blasterborn in a Raider. On a drop, it had 6 lances, one BS7 going into anything from anywhere, and while that was good, I decided I wanted more battlefield presence for the 200ish points I was spending on that combo.

@Siticus the Ancient

Here is what I would at 1500, and you have a couple of choices since you can decide to bring 2x Razorwings for just 1. Personally, I've found that in lower point games, 1 flyer is often enough since you want to maximize on available firepower rather than reinforced firepower (the type you call in).

Quote :

1500
DE CAD*

HQ:
Llama = 10
+Venom SC = 65

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170

FAST:
Razorwing = 130
Venom SC = 65

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Here, you basically maintain the majority of your firepower and bodycount while cutting out Lances on the Razorwing. You can always choose to just drop the additional SC from the Llama's ride, or maybe even a Blaster somewhere should you feel like it.

The beauty of having this type of list is that it scales really well at 1500. The Trueborn units are luxury items IMO and its good if you have them, but if you don't, it's no biggy. If you want the extra flyer or like having things in 2s, I can also recommend this list:

Quote :

1475
DE CAD*

HQ:
Llama = 10

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

There's less lances in the initial volley obviously, but you be less vulnerable to air. It's really up to you, but you basically mix and match whatever you want.

Thanks for the sample lists! I feel the second list is closer to my liking, as my experience with lance Razorwings means one is never reliable enough for anti-air. I will try out both, as either looks sufficiently nasty!

By the way, could you explain your preference of 10 man warrior teams in gunboats and cutting down the lances in favor of two Venoms versus six raiders with 5 man warrior teams?

Sure,

In fact, I said it earlier in this chat..

HERO wrote:

One of these days my friend, the Wyches will return.

I don't know why Thor hates on gunboats, their twin linked firepower scares the crap out of flyrants and demons in my area. They know that in order to get shots or get in combat, they gotta get close. Once they get close, they eat super accurate poison fire. I think this might be a metacall,  since more venom means more threat at range, but even 3 gunboat upgrades over 3 min blaster raider and venom equates to 150 points. That's an extra razor wing or blaster born venom at best. I don't see those as powerful as tri gunboat, especially when they can still threaten well while jinking.

That's just me though maybe. On my phone.

Is it so scary to Flyrants and other FMC:s? With 10 guy Raider with racks you are likely to cause 1 unsaved wound to flyrant with no FNP. Then it has 30% chance of suffering a wound from dropping of the sky. Ofcourse 4 of these squads should bring that flyrant down in one turn. on the other hand if it doesn't those raiders are in danger next turn. Almost same applies to FMC deamons.

Vasara wrote:

Is it so scary to Flyrants and other FMC:s? With 10 guy Raider with racks you are likely to cause 1 unsaved wound to flyrant with no FNP. Then it has 30% chance of suffering a wound from dropping of the sky. Ofcourse 4 of these squads should bring that flyrant down in one turn. on the other hand if it doesn't those raiders are in danger next turn. Almost same applies to FMC deamons.

Yeah, after careful testing, it poses a greater threat to them than Venoms of similar cost.  I could fit in 2 more Venoms, but a single SR Gunboat puts out as much wounds as both of those.  Since I have 3 in the list, it's like having 6 Venoms math-wise vs. those FMC, although it will be shorter range and vulnerable to explosions.  But then again, Raiders are 3 HP and the guys inside can Jink all day while the Venom is vulnerable to Jinking. I will take that fire consistency over just having a little more Venoms.

HERO wrote:

Sure,

In fact, I said it earlier in this chat..

HERO wrote:

One of these days my friend, the Wyches will return.

I don't know why Thor hates on gunboats, their twin linked firepower scares the crap out of flyrants and demons in my area. They know that in order to get shots or get in combat, they gotta get close. Once they get close, they eat super accurate poison fire. I think this might be a metacall,  since more venom means more threat at range, but even 3 gunboat upgrades over 3 min blaster raider and venom equates to 150 points. That's an extra razor wing or blaster born venom at best. I don't see those as powerful as tri gunboat, especially when they can still threaten well while jinking.

That's just me though maybe. On my phone.

Ah, silly me for letting that slip by. I'm still somewhat new to all the oddities of 7th edition, and passengers shooting normally while the boat is jinking takes time to get used to! Makes sense now, thanks for the advice!

PainReaver wrote:

Incubi shouldn't be sent towards ordinary grey hunters, or at the very least full squad Grey Hunters. Because Area Terrain no longer provides standing cover saves (only improving go to ground cover saves).

This is incorrect. Area terrain works like it did in 6th edition; it's just no longer called 'area terrain', it's 'terrain that grants a 4+/5+/whatever save to any model standing in it'. Read the rules for the 'Twisted Copse' (which is GWs fancy name for 'a forest') in the 7th edition rulebook, along with some of the other 'citadel terrain' pieces. Several of them are treated exactly like area terrain was treated in the previous edition. I think that any game with reasonable players would allow terrain pieces that look like the equivalent of their 'citadel terrain' counterparts to be treated as such.

In your lists with a Lhamean as your HQ, what do you do for warlord traits?

Nariaklizhar wrote:

In your lists with a Lhamean as your HQ, what do you do for warlord traits?

Whenever there's Warlord traits involved, I always pick the Strategic tree. It's just too powerful, and almost all of its benefits really help us. Global Stealth for Ruins for example, insane.

OK. Who do you use as your warlord?

HERO wrote:

Nariaklizhar wrote:

In your lists with a Lhamean as your HQ, what do you do for warlord traits?

Whenever there's Warlord traits involved, I always pick the Strategic tree.  It's just too powerful, and almost all of its benefits really help us.  Global Stealth for Ruins for example, insane.

I believe what @Nariaklizhar is getting at is that if you choose a non character model to be your warlord you may not roll on the warlord table. The recent lists you presented only have characters in the allied detachment (can't be the primary detachment), and your warlord determines which detachment is your primary detachment, as your allied detachment can't be a primary detachment you can't choose a warlord from it (see BRB for details). So no warlord traits for you!

Exactly. Also, don't you have to have a warlord nominated so your opponent has the ability to kill a warlord?

If your amry does not have a charater then can be warlord, any non charater model can rise to power and becomes a warlord. But with no warlord trait. I have a Talos for warlord from time to time, that one just refuse to die

Sorry for the lack of activity, I've been playing NF2 a ton! Yes, what Mush said. When I don't have a Warlord (aka no 10 points to spare), I just go with a Llama and no warlord traits.