I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(

Mushkilla wrote:

Egory and I were discussing the value of MSU reavers (squads of 12x3 with a caltrop/heatlance with double real space raid detachments), in this thread the other day. The reasoning was as follows.

Mushkilla wrote:

MSU reavers give you a lot of scoring/denial power in maelstrom missions thanks to their mobility. They are mobile and cheap enough to be sacrificially used as blockers and obstructions (blocking the movement of Imperial Knights for example). They also create threat saturation as they are dangerous enough with caltrops and heatlances/blasters not to be ignored (if you ignore them they don't need to jink and fire at full BS). As a result they can draw fire away from the rest of your army. Finally because of their mobility, caltrops and heatlance/blaster even a single reaver can be a threat.

How does this dynamic affect serpent spam?

Serpents need to shoot the reavers, as they can destroy the serpents in assault with caltrops. However, if the serpents shoot the reavers they drop their shields leaving themselves vulnerable to AP1-2 weapons (your raiders/ravagers/razorwings). Jink needs to be declared when a shot hits, before you know whether it has penetrated or not. Also any penetrating hit could cause problems (weapon destroyed, stunned and immobalised are all problems for serpents). Does the serpent player take his chance from a single heatlance/blaster shot and not jink? Or does he play safe and jink? If he jinks, he is BS1 next turn significantly reducing his damage against the reavers (about 0.66 wounds per serpent against reavers with FNP 5+). Combine this with the fact that MSU reavers can easily position themselves at multiple angles, meaning if the serpents are to shoot the reavers with their shields they will need to turn to face them, potentially exposing their rear armour to other reavers and lances in the dark eldar army.

All of this forces a huge amount of cognitive strain on your opponent, there are so many factors and so many possible responses to the barrage of questions that you are asking him with all these reavers. After all the reavers only make up half the dark eldar army, which he hasn't even had time to think about!

I'm sure this will take a lot of practice to get to grips with but i'm hopeful.

Why don't use units of 12 models? In assault, u can easly get caltrops in the rear of Wave (tried, it works), the remain 36 Reavers, you gain OS with troops, don't need to lose 1 Caltrops any 3 Wounds (but any squad have 8 wounds before), and last but not least you don't make morale checks any wound you get (and can buy 3 champions for D9/10 with drugs).
And they can do multple assaults (and with 36 Reavers you can close the Eldar or push him to gettin fast with Waves>>no shoots)

I like Reavers in this Codex, much than the old

Cerve wrote:

Why don't use units of 12 models? In assault, u can easly get caltrops in the rear of Wave (tried, it works), the remain 36 Reavers, you gain OS with troops, don't need to lose 1 Caltrops any 3 Wounds (but any squad have 8 wounds before), and last but not least you don't make morale checks any wound you get (and can buy 3 champions for D9/10 with drugs).
And they can do multple assaults (and with 36 Reavers you can close the Eldar or push him to gettin fast with Waves>>no shoots)

I like Reavers in this Codex, much than the old

The Idea is, you Opponent has 5 WS's on the Table, you have 18 units of AT (2 shot 1 charge) each, you also have 4-5 venoms or raiders with a blaster or 2, and maybe a Ravager or 2.

You have SO many unit of bikes that he HAS to try and kill 5 a turn ignoring you Ravagers/venoms/raiders, if he hit your Boats then your bike will kill himin melee (He cant outrun them and shoot when they get to the line).

Yes but when one single Reaver die, u must test for the unit. D8...and with 2 losses, if the break, they are losts.
Idk, I prefer 3 units of 12 :-/

And in a KillPoint game u can concede :-/

PS: at 1750 Eldar plays more than 5 WS ( here it is).

Cerve wrote:

Yes but when one single Reaver die, u must test for the unit. D8...and with 2 losses, if the break, they are losts.
Idk, I prefer 3 units of 12 :-/

And in a KillPoint game u can concede :-/

PS: at 1750 Eldar plays more than 5  WS ( here it is).

You summed up all the reasons why I don't like MSU Reavers.

That and the fact that they die like rats.

Cerve wrote:

Yes but when one single Reaver die, u must test for the unit. D8...and with 2 losses, if the break, they are losts...

Thankfully bikes are immune to pinning so you only need to make a single leadership test not two when being shot by serpents. You can regroup as long as you are at more than 25% of the units original strength. One model out of three is 33% so MSU reavers can always regroup. Unlike units of 12.

The advantage of MSU is flexibility.

When you want to score/contest an objective you only sacrifice the the damage output of 2-3 reavers rather than 9-12. When they are forced to jink, only 1 heat/lance blaster is being forced to snapshot. When you assault a small unit or vehicle you are more efficient (as you will not be overkilling the target). Multi charge you say? They are hard with reavers as they ignore terrain and intervening models, meaning you can often get more in base contact with the primary target of the charge, as a result you are less likely to be able to get the desired amount of models in base contact with the secondary target. Multicharges are also less valuable because reavers do all their damage in the first round of combat. MSU reavers on the other hand can team up when they need the numbers, and charge sepperat targets when they don't. The smaller reaver units are cheap making them expendable and can be used to screen and block, protecting other units and forcing your opponent to shoot/charge them over more valualble targets. You're more likely force your opponent into overkill. You can limit the damage of overwatch. Want to charge a guard blob full of flamers (or another unit with potent overwatch)? Let them fire all of their flamers at one unit of 3 reavers, killing them sure, but limiting the damage of that overwatch to 3 and no more. Then the rest of your reavers can charge in unhindered.

These are just some of the reasons why I think smaller squads of reavers 3-6 are more flexible than larger squads 9-12 in the context of the 6 FA slot real space raid detachment. The only time I see larger squads being advantageous is will eldar allies and invisibility.

That's my experience anyway.

HERO wrote:

That and the fact that they die like rats.

Do smaller squads sustain casualties any faster than larger squads (psychic buffs aside)? No. So your complaint is against reavers regardless of squads size.

I argue the opposite overkill makes smaller squads more resilient. If a unit kills 6 reavers on average in a shooting phase, then a squads of 3 only takes 3 casualties a squads of 12 takes 6, by forcing your opponents squad to overkill you are limiting the squads damage output by 50%.

The same can be said for deathstars and assault. If a death star charges 3 reavers, 3 reavers die, if it charges 12 reavers, 12 reavers die.

Understanding overkill is one of the keys to success in a shooting/deathstar/imperial knight dominated edition.

Quote :

Do smaller squads sustain casualties any faster than larger squads (psychic buffs aside)? No. So your complaint is against reavers regardless of squads size.

Wait, what.

The smaller the squad size, given the same wounds forced, you will be taking more saves on a smaller footprint of models. There is no way in the mathematical world that less units is more survivable than larger units of Reavers in this argument.

Understanding overkill is important, but not in a game where you first shoot with a unit, get the intended or unintended results, before moving onto another unit to rinse and repeat. If everything was resolved simultaneously, then this method will have greater effect.

The fact of the matter is, having smaller units of Reavers will just mean that I can put 1 Wave Serpent into it and have a much higher success at killing everything in there in 1 round. What's true for you also applies to the Serpentspammer in this case, except they're far more accurate and can force enough wounds to wipe out a unit with 1 go. On average dice, 1 WS, even without Shuriken Cannons, will be able to put down 3 Reavers with shooting. So if you bring a unit of 6, be prepared to do some serious hiding/dropping/running out of line of sight or prepared to lose them. Unless the guy's an idiot, S6 Rending and a Heat Lance is not something he wants in his face.

Eldar players, well, any good player that is, have the same mentality as a good Dark Eldar player. It's all about damage dealt vs. damage mitigation. The only difference in this case is that they do more damage than you, and mitigate far more damage.

I'm not sure how MSU Reavers will preform, but I look forward to your battle reports as always

HERO wrote:

There is no way in the mathematical world that less units is more survivable than larger units of Reavers in this argument.

I didn't say a smaller unit was more survivable than a larger unit. I said a smaller unit sustain casualties at the same rate as a larger unit (and at a slower rate when overkill is involved). A reaver is still a T4 3+ cover save model whether he is in a small unit or a larger unit.

To clarify, my argument is that 4 units of 3 reavers is more survivable than 1 unit of 12 reavers as it forces enemy units to overkill. Not to mention the tactical flexibility 4 units have over 1. Therefore, free FA slots permitting, it's more advantageous to take 4 units of 3 reavers than 1 unit of 12 reavers.

Mushkilla wrote:

HERO wrote:

There is no way in the mathematical world that less units is more survivable than larger units of Reavers in this argument.

I didn't say a smaller unit was more survivable than a larger unit. I said a smaller unit sustain casualties at the same rate as a larger unit (and at a slower rate when overkill is involved). A reaver is still a T4 3+ cover save model whether he is in a small unit or a larger unit.

To clarify, my argument is that 4 units of 3 reavers is more survivable than 1 unit of 12 reavers as it forces enemy units to overkill. Not to mention the tactical flexibility 4 units have over 1. Therefore, free FA slots permitting, it's more advantageous to take 4 units of 3 reavers than 1 unit of 12 reavers.

But my friend, the overkill is not so bad in this case because it's still 1 unit shooting at 1 unit. If I can kill 1 unit of smaller Reavers per turn with 1 WS, I'm going to feel pretty good about it.

Overkill would be like a full unit of Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster shooting at a single-tank. That's just too bad because 18 poisoned shots are wasted. However in the case of the Serpent, after your armor saves and Jinks, you're just failing armor saves by a little. That's a much closer ratio of kill successes vs. fails than say, the example that I gave.

Like I said though Mush, let me know how it goes. It's been a long time since you needed me to give you advice

HERO wrote:

But my friend, the overkill is not so bad in this case because it's still 1 unit shooting at 1 unit.  If I can kill 1 unit of smaller Reavers per turn with 1 WS, I'm going to feel pretty good about it.

The maximum number of reavers a single serpent firing a cannon, scatter laser and shield can kill is 14. Would you not feel even more good if one of your serpent killed a unit of 12 reavers freeing the rest of your serpents to shoot at whatever they pleased?

By taking 4 units of 3 reavers I am guaranteeing that you need an absolute minimum of 4 serpents worth of fire to kill them all. A single unit of 12 has no such guarantee.

HERO wrote:

Like I said though Mush, let me know how it goes.  It's been a long time since you needed me to give you advice

If that were the case I wouldn't be reading your blog on a regular basis. Besides I would't call myself a competitive player, as I don't build the most competitive lists.

Well, the first thing I would say is, burn your dice.  That's what I would do if I lost 12 Reavers to a single Wave Serpent, followed by me walking across the table and punching the other guy in the face.

The second thing I would say is, I agree with you on the fact that you're forcing me to dedicate more Wave Serpents to kill your MSU.  I'm just telling you that I would be happy to reply because it's realistically easier for me to kill smaller numbers than bigger numbers, plus I get the added bonus of first blood, an easy panic, and reducing the number down to something I might not even care about.  I would be much more worried for the S6 Rending vs. something like a single Heat Lance, which probably needs to Snapfire because of Jink.

We're just going to be in different camps on this one and that's fine.  I'm just curious how the MSU approach will do because I have my doubts and I'm not always right.  Besides, you have a ton more bikes than I do so if anyone is going to test this theory, it's going to be you  You better ping me and let me know when you've got BRs up!

@Mush (I can't quote with cellphone): agree with you but tell me how can you play that list in a Kill Point mission? There's some way that I miss? Because with 12 3-models-units I found it extremely hard

KP missions are almost a non factor anymore unless a specific tournament is focusing more on that aspect. Better to give that one up because in return you get superior MSU strategy for objective play and identical firepower. I think its probably one of the stronger concepts for DE currently to come from the new dex. Its nothing new, look at tau single suit builds or eldar min EJBs or single oblits etc. Forcing overkill is a good added benefit to MSU might as well maximize the concept. That said I just don't like the idea of managing 12 miny bike squads. Just doesn't appeal to me.

HERO wrote:

The second thing I would say is, I agree with you on the fact that you're forcing me to dedicate more Wave Serpents to kill your MSU.  I'm just telling you that I would be happy to reply because it's realistically easier for me to kill smaller numbers than bigger numbers, plus I get the added bonus of first blood, an easy panic, and reducing the number down to something I might not even care about.  I would be much more worried for the S6 Rending vs. something like a single Heat Lance, which probably needs to Snapfire because of Jink.

The point where you lose me is how a squad of 12 would change any of this?

Let's say you can kill 1 unit of 3 with each serpent. Okay, sure, makes sense.
So I take a unit of 12 instead of 4 of 3.
Now, instead of 4 serpents firing on 4 squads you have 4 serpents firing on one squad.
By your own argument, this changes nothing.
But Mush's argument can change things depending on the results of the serpent attacks.

You say it's easier to kill smaller numbers than big numbers - 12 Reavers is still 12 Reavers, and it is harder to kill 4 units than 1 barring defensive psyker powers or something. Is that what you're advocating?

I don't know how I keep losing you.  A unit of 3 Reavers is easier to kill than a unit of 12.  That's literally all I'm saying and it's not even a remotely difficult concept to understand.

MSU will force more units to shoot at you with a slight possibility of overkill.  On seriously below average dice, one Wave Serpent will not be able to kill 3 Reavers.  On seriously above average dice, one WS will overkill a bit more than than he should.  On average, he should just slightly overkill, by 1-2 wounds.  I'm not even counting Shuriken Cannon upgrades.  With the upgrade, and if he moved 6, he's overkilling the squad by 2-3.  As an Eldar player, I'm telling you that I don't care if I slightly overkill your 3 Reavers, that unit is still dead and the threat has been removed.

So let's say on average he OKs by 1.5.  If 1 WS OKs 1 squad of Reavers by 1.5, then that means a unit of 12 Reavers will only need 3 WS to kill all 12 vs. 4 if you're shooting at 4 units of 3.  That's still not a huge loss for the Eldar player as he's still killing your units.  If you throw in defensive measures like allied Invis, then bigger units will certainty reap the benefits more.

All in all, I don't see the viability of MSU of Reavers as they're fragile and easy to pick off.  They're essentially fast marines that carry a bigger threat range.  Faster units with threat draw more attention and thus they get shot before they reach their target.  I see them as a distraction more than anything, and if they work, great.  I wouldn't over-invest in them though, as this is a game of points and over-investing will just make other areas in your list weaker overall.

I see it this way.

A unit of 3 will TAKE the same AMOUNT of fire from 1 WS.. 1 WS has the Ability on average to kill 5-6 Reavers.

By splitting a 6man unit into 2 3mans, it will now take 2 WS's to kill the same amount of reavers.

Well a serpent can easily vaporize D6+2 reavers or even more so wont bring more than 3-4 per unit let him vaste the firepower and anything else eldar has would be dead from your other units

urden93 wrote:

Well a serpent can easily vaporize D6+2 reavers or even more so wont bring more than 3-4 per unit  let him vaste the firepower and anything else eldar has would be dead from your other units

Let's not forget that Reavers get:

Armour Save vs everything except Shuriken Cannon
Cover Save vs everything except Serpent Shield
FNP vs everything

Wave Serpent firing everything against Jinking Reavers and assuming all shots are twin-linked:

Scatter Laser: 4 shots, 3.55 hits, 2.96 wounds, 0.99 unsaved wounds, 0.65 dead Reavers after FNP
Shuriken Cannon: 3 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 0.59 unsaved wounds, 0.39 dead Reavers after FNP
Serpent Shield: 4.5 shots, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 unsaved wounds, 1.48 dead Reavers after FNP
Total: 2.52 dead Reavers (40 points) from a 130+ point transport that many people think is the best unit in the game. Reavers are surprisingly survivable!

That works at turn 3. Before, no fnp (well, fnp6+, ok)

Cerve wrote:

That works at turn 3. Before, no fnp (well, fnp6+, ok)

Right

Someone do those numbers again, but for turn 1 or turn 2....

Then see how many die.

amishprn86 wrote:

Cerve wrote:

That works at turn 3. Before, no fnp (well, fnp6+, ok)

Right

Someone do those numbers again, but for turn 1 or turn 2....

Then see how many die.

Without any form of FNP it goes up to 3.8 dead Reavers. You should however be able to hide out of LOS or even stay in reserve for the first couple of turns and there's also a decent chance that the Serpent won't be in range to fire the Shuriken Cannon and/or will have moved more than 6" and therefore be snap firing one weapon.

Count Adhemar wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Cerve wrote:

That works at turn 3. Before, no fnp (well, fnp6+, ok)

Right

Someone do those numbers again, but for turn 1 or turn 2....

Then see how many die.

Without any form of FNP it goes up to 3.8 dead Reavers. You should however be able to hide out of LOS or even stay in reserve for the first couple of turns and there's also a decent chance that the Serpent won't be in range to fire the Shuriken Cannon and/or will have moved more than 6" and therefore be snap firing one weapon.

If the Cannon is ooR, you are not in range for an assault on the rear either.
Hiding 12 (?) MSU Reavr units out of LoS from 6 Serpents is also not an easy (I would say impossible) task.
If you keep them in reserve you risk getting them in smaller heaps and thus contradicting the target saturation idea of the MSU Reavers.
Also if you reduce the Reaver Squad to 1 member or even get the caltrops somehow, the squad lost his "scaryness" significantly.

Strangely enough, I'm not going to be in position for a rear charge on turn one in any event, so that's hardly a valid argument. Even turn two might be pushing it and by turn three I'll have FNP.

The main point being of course that Reavers don't simply melt when a Serpent looks at them and it's not really worth building a list designed around that misconception.

12" move 36" turbo boost and than 2D6 assault move on turn 1 idk how that doesnt get you in range for a rear assault, tho also in range of all enemy fire

urden93 wrote:

12" move 36" turbo boost and than 2D6 assault move on turn 1 idk how that doesnt get you in range for a rear assault, tho also in range of all enemy fire

You can't turbo boost and assault move in the same turn and unless your opponent is a bit backwards he's not going to just stand still on his own turn to let you get a rear charge off.

In our forum we have thinked about another pretty strong list which can compete against wave spam.

Archon blaster on Venom
Archon blaster on Venom
lahem on Venom
5 kabal blaster on Venom
5 kabal blaster on venom
5 Kabal blaster on venom
5 kabal blaster on venom
5 scourges 4hay
5 scourges 4hay
5 scourges 4hay
5 scourges 4hay
5 scourges 4 hay
venom alone FA

8 Venoms, 96 poisoned hits on 36"
25 haywire blasters
6 blasters (2 on BS7)
Msu style.

And 25 wounds which save 4+ against all WS hits Scourges push to jink very well.
Not first player? Deepstrike (or cut los if u can)

I found it very strong. And it is 1500 points.

PS: pretty good vs all enemies, even Tau