I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(

HERO wrote:

Because Venoms do not help you vs. Wave Serpents, which is the point of this thread.  That's why I'm confused.

I think my Venom comment makes sense in context - I am advocating multiple units with lances, blasters, and haywire and am suggesting that Gunboats are too expensive to do this properly with and suggest using Venoms as anti-infantry instead as a cost saving measure. Not using them to kill Serpents, but rather using them, saving points over a Gunboat build, and then having more points spread out to utilize anti-mech tools with.

I never advocated not bringing anti-mech gear in favor of Venoms, and agree that would be crazy talk if I had.

Do I make more sense now?

HERO wrote:

But they're naked little buggers who die to Eldar shooting.

As does pretty much any unit in our codex. That said, they are reasonably survivable versus a Wave Serpent - I think they are more survivable than a Ravager, quite frankly.

HERO wrote:

Since they're not all that cheap, they compete directly with the Ravager for anti-tank pricing. 120 vs. 125 if you're looking for HWB.

I agree that they and the Ravager are somewhat competitors for points, though since they don't compete for slots it's not exactly an either/or. I have been running both, myself, points depending. I will agree that I haven't decided which is absolutely superior - though I currently am starting to lean Scourges overall - as most of what I want to destroy is AV12+ anyway, and I have lance Raiders for the explosion quest when I need it.

HERO wrote:

I think if DS is in your gameplan at all (which it should be), you absolutely need either comms relay or an Autarch. That way, you can reliably bring in everything at once and hopefully overwhelm the Eldar player with targets while you shoot.

I agree with this plan for DS, though i will admit DS is not my gameplan.

HERO wrote:

Going second vs. Eldar means anything with Holo-fields are moving for 3+ Jink on AV12 hulls. That's already a tall order, but add in Shrouding from some Far/SPiritseers and Twin-linked everywhere, they can still muster a good amount of shooting while denying retaliatory damage.

I agree, Eldar are a very tough army and pretty much unquestionably the top codex right now.
That doesn't actually change what we should take to deal with them though. At the end of the day there are anti-mech and anti-infantry tools, and our job is to spot the best ones within our codex.

For serpent spam?
The harvester formation with 5 taloses all with haywire blasters.
Three formations of dark artisans with icor injectors heatlances spirit probes and WWP.
Right around 1750.
Scout the talos forward and deep strike the artisans to cover the board with threat/ murder wraithknight.

Quote :

I think my Venom comment makes sense in context - I am advocating multiple units with lances, blasters, and haywire and am suggesting that Gunboats are too expensive to do this properly with and suggest using Venoms as anti-infantry instead as a cost saving measure. Not using them to kill Serpents, but rather using them, saving points over a Gunboat build, and then having more points spread out to utilize anti-mech tools with.

I never advocated not bringing anti-mech gear in favor of Venoms, and agree that would be crazy talk if I had.

Do I make more sense now?

A little, mainly because I don't see the points allocation with this construction.

What would your 1850 army look like in a competitive, all-comers setting vs. the current metagame out there?

That will give me a better idea where you're putting your points.

Quote :

That doesn't actually change what we should take to deal with them though. At the end of the day there are anti-mech and anti-infantry tools, and our job is to spot the best ones within our codex.

Whether or not we have anti-tankor anti-infantry is one thing, having reliable solutions to Wave Serpents is a completely different issue.  Both Scourges and Ravagers have horrible statistics vs. WS while they remain superior in both damage and durability vs. every single one of our firing solutions.

Observe the following chart comparison for raw damage dealt, assuming Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons and Serpent Shield.
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/similar.png
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/waveserpent.gif

Quote :

For serpent spam?
The harvester formation with 5 taloses all with haywire blasters.
Three formations of dark artisans with icor injectors heatlances spirit probes and WWP.
Right around 1750.
Scout the talos forward and deep strike the artisans to cover the board with threat/ murder wraithknight.

Nice plan. Thats how much....11 Taloses boxes? No way im painting that much ). Or buying.

Azdrubael wrote:

Quote :

For serpent spam?
The harvester formation with 5 taloses all with haywire blasters.
Three formations of dark artisans with icor injectors heatlances spirit probes and WWP.
Right around 1750.
Scout the talos forward and deep strike the artisans to cover the board with threat/ murder wraithknight.

Nice plan. Thats how much....11 Taloses boxes? No way im painting that much ). Or buying.

EBay! You can grab the old metal ones for 5-10 buck! My harvesters squad is going to be all old metal ones!

HERO wrote:

A little, mainly because I don't see the points allocation with this construction.

What would your 1850 army look like in a competitive, all-comers setting vs. the current metagame out there?

That will give me a better idea where you're putting your points.

There is no need to see an army list for the purpose of that conversation. It is not about the list, but about the list building mentality.

Raider w. racks + lance
10 Warriors w. s.cannon
155 points

5 Warriors w. Blaster
Venom 2. s.cannon
120

So, If I take three Gunboats - I am almost paying for 4 Venoms.
The Venoms have defensive gear (Flicker) which the Raider lacks (and if you take the N.Shields then 3 Gunboats *do* pay for 4 Venoms) I still have ample anti infantry. I have more (albeit less range) anti-mech, though I can jink and maintain my anti-mech. If I am dealing with Serpent Spam, they need to fire twice to remove my anti-mech if I am in the Venoms, whereas once will do it for the Gunboat.

That is target saturation vs. Serpent Spam via point saving without giving up the ability to fight infantry.

Make sense?

HERO wrote:

Whether or not we have anti-tankor anti-infantry is one thing, having reliable solutions to Wave Serpents is a completely different issue. Both Scourges and Ravagers have horrible statistics vs. WS while they remain superior in both damage and durability vs. every single one of our firing solutions.

There are few codices in the entire scope of the game with good answers to Wave Serpents - that is why Serpent spam is so powerful and why Eldar is the top codex.

That said, it doesn't mean that our anti-mech options are less functional because Serpent spam is good - they remain good anti-mech options or never were. Yes, they will do less to Serpents than to other mech options. But that that is not the issue.

HERO wrote:

Observe the following chart comparison for raw damage dealt, assuming Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons and Serpent Shield.
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/similar.png
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/waveserpent.gif

Yes, I agree, Wave Serpents are powerful.
I was never attempting to suggest they were not.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

For the range and movement purposes, our weapons are 36" so I would not assume he is in range with 24" guns without moving.

If you stay 36" all the time, your kabalites wont fire a single shot.
If you refer to ravager, they are now equally expensive to a Serpent and they are not going to force them to jink anyways.

Thats why I say "on average"
There is a 25% chance that i dont hit? Wow. There is also a 75% chance that I hit.
There is a 33% chance I roll under average? There is also a 33% chance to roll above average!

If you put your ravagers in cover there is a good chance that you can only use 2 lances. Even with 3 Lances you only have a 33% chance to put a single Hullpoint on a serpent. If it is in cover too (where no weapon gets blocked as hard as ours) the chance drops to 17,5 %. (or 11 % if they have Holofields)

Im not gonna jink because of the slim chance of losing 1 HP when I can easily destroy the Ravager next turn. And if 3 Ravagers do this, I start jinking on my last HP and blast all 3 of them next turn.
Assumed I havent already done so on first turn with my 60" Shield.

A competitive Serpent list contains aroud 6 Serpents in addition to Nightspinners. That tactic is not valid against 7 - 8 Vehicles.

I don't think I understand how you're doing your math. I just calculated it out incredibly generously using the following:

- Vehicles only get a 4+ cover save against the scatter laser and shuriken cannon (even though I spent half of the time in my 2 games today with a 3+ cover save without jinking and even enjoyed some 2+'s). I also didn't compute flickerfield saves for the serpent shield on venoms because I didn't feel like running a third case.

- Shuriken Cannon is firing as well as the scatter laser and serpent shield although I wouldn't always assume it is in range nor do I think all opponents take it.

- When the scatter laser does hit, I counted the other weapons as having twice as many shots instead of actually mathing out the various possibilities where if one of the first shots hit you don't get to roll 4 dice again the second time for example.

The results I got were an average of 1.3 hull points on a raider or venom and 0.99 hull points on the ravager. Again, that was with very generous calculations in your favor. When I ran it with the same averages on cover saves I was utilizing today, both vehicles were averaging less than 1 hull point per turn.

I've not even said anything about the output of our vehicles in retaliation to them, so I don't know why you're going into that now either. There are lots of other factors that should be considered if you want to do a detailed analysis, but all I said was that you were being too generous on the wave serpents threat to our vehicles while snapshooting.

HERO wrote:

Observe the following chart comparison for raw damage dealt, assuming Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons and Serpent Shield.
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/similar.png
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/waveserpent.gif

Although still valid for this discussion, I thought it worth pointing out that the pictures are out of date (from 6th edition) as a 6 without modification no longer makes vehicles explode in 7th edition.

Quote :

I've not even said anything about the output of our vehicles in retaliation to them, so I don't know why you're going into that now either.

Im going into that, because the proposed strategy was "keep the serpents jinking by pointing guns at them". So if the retaliation is weak, you cant keep them jinking.

But again, this changes the subject of how much damage a snap shooting serpent deals. That is all I've commented on and the rest of the equation is a different topic.

My army, for example, does not have its anti armor elements adversely affected by jinking with my raiders, venoms, or ravagers because it's the units inside that attack the vehicles for me in addition to my scourges and flyers.

Why don't we try this again from the start. A snap shooting wave serpent will not pose that much of a threat to your vehicles. That's all I'm saying. They average less than a hull point per turn and I consider that acceptably low enough to ignore for the turn. Do you disagree with that? I absolutely think wave serpents are devastating and versatile tools otherwise.

Quote :

Why don't we try this again from the start. A snap shooting wave serpent will not pose that much of a threat to your vehicles. That's all I'm saying. They average less than a hull point per turn and I consider that acceptably low enough to ignore for the turn. Do you disagree with that? I absolutely think wave serpents are devastating and versatile tools otherwise.

The Problem here is, that a Jinking Wave Serpent provides as much a threat for your vehicles as a stationary Ravager provides to a Serpent.
Scourges have also the added risk of getting killed by the Serpents inhabitants. The Dire Avengers.
Even if the scourges get the Serpent to jink (good chance they will) it just moves 6", the DA get out, move another 6" and shoot you at 18" with the option of battle focus movement if needed.
The real problem here is that we have NO WAY of dealing with serpent spam as it nullifies every single unit without really thinking too much.
As I said. The average Serpent spam list will include 6 Serpents, 4x5 DA, 2x5 Fire Dragons, 2x6 Hawks, naked Autarch and 2 Nightspinners.
I would even state that this list is not beatable by our codex unless you prepare specifically and add in Eldar yourself.

I'm not contesting most of those points of the strengths of the eldar codex. I've even acknowledged that wave serpents are incredibly potent tools in their arsenals, though the main eldar player at my club only runs a few and then a few Crimson sky hunters to support them which are also very difficult for me to deal with. There's a reason I'm not running my ravagers for anti-tank too. I agree that they pose as little of a threat against vehicles as a snap shooting ws.

Again, I don't know how many times I can say all that is irrelevant to the comment I made that you disagreed with. Once you get one snap shooting, stop focusing on it and target something else because you're no longer efficiently directing your resources and reducing incoming damage if you focus on killing them one at a time instead of getting several of them to snap shoot.

A snap shooting ws should not be your priority for targets imo. since you're continuing to disagree with the only comment I've made on the subject, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and you can continue to focus on kills one at a time as you see fit.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

unless you prepare specifically and add in Eldar yourself.

This is kind of an empty point though, isn't it?

"You cannot reliably beat a tournament level list unless you are prepared for a tournament level list" is how I am reading that.

Yeah, if I'm going to a tourney and expect to have top tier lists at it, I will expect to face Serpent Spam a few times and will build accordingly, and if I'm going to that type of tournament it is not a shocking idea to me that I may build in an Eldar support force, as Eldar is one of the best codices and pairs very well with DE and will allow me to make a stronger list.

I can agree with you that there is a power curve of codices and that Eldar is ranked higher than Dark Eldar. That is the nature of the game, there are codices that are doing well, and ones that are not, and it is a potential design flaw on the part of GW that this is so starkly true.

That is why we are discussing ways to deal with it, and though forcing them to jink is not the be all, end all - yes, if you can force about half of the serpents into snap firing it will help your survivability - certainly moreso than not doing that

I don't know how well this would work because I dont have the models but I'd think reavers would do good against them. They can move around and are small enough to hide out of line of sight and their charging in would do 2d6 s6 and 4s4 (for a 6 man with 2 cluster caltrops). Yes the shield gets through the 3+ cover but they get a 5+ armor as well as fnp.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

I don't know how well this would work because I dont have the models but I'd think reavers would do good against them. They can move around and are small enough to hide out of line of sight and their charging in would do 2d6 s6 and 4s4 (for a 6 man with 2 cluster caltrops). Yes the shield gets through the 3+ cover but they get a 5+ armor as well as fnp.

Agree , reavers can be good against serpent, but they need a lot of manipulation, to get near to the serpent (for the rear charge and heatlance)

Eldar are fast with battle focus , they also got the range and the fire power

DE weakness : Mass S6 S7/AV12/ignore cover, and that's serpents spam

I think Klaivex Charondyr got it : "I would even state that this list(Serpents Spam) is not beatable by our codex unless you prepare specifically and add in Eldar yourself."

ya , we can build a strong list with DE/Eldar or DE along(maybe) , but serpents spam just got advantage, just like venom spam against TYRANID or imperial knight against venom spam.

Quote :

Again, I don't know how many times I can say all that is irrelevant to the comment I made that you disagreed with. Once you get one snap shooting, stop focusing on it and target something else because you're no longer efficiently directing your resources and reducing incoming damage if you focus on killing them one at a time instead of getting several of them to snap shoot.

A snap shooting ws should not be your priority for targets imo. since you're continuing to disagree with the only comment I've made on the subject, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and you can continue to focus on kills one at a time as you see fit.

Ok. Again.
Her is the problem:

You need A LOT of shooting to force my Sperpents to jink. Approx 3 times the pont value of the serpent. So how many serpents are you gonna make jink with that? 2? 3?
While the rest will kill 3 or more of your vehicles.
So your firepower to make Sperpents jink is getting smaller and smaller each turn. It is not "oh help a Ravager is firing at me and has a tiny chance to remove one HP and an even smaller chance to explode me.. I better jink now!" Its rather "pfff... got 3 HP, I dont care. Ask me again when im down to 1"
So unless you are playing 4500 points vs 1500 you dont even have the firepower to make 1/3 of his Sperpents jink and will start losing 1/4 of your Army each turn.

Quote :

"You cannot reliably beat a tournament level list unless you are prepared for a tournament level list" is how I am reading that.

Prepairing specifically for one list is a bad Idea. Yes, you can run in multiple Sperpent Spam lists but then you lack the ability to get rid of other nasty lists. So if you dont have the absolute knowledge against which lists you will play on that tourney, preparing for a single list is a bad Idea... Sperpent Spam on the other hand is popular because it works against ANY list.

Mushkilla wrote:

HERO wrote:

Observe the following chart comparison for raw damage dealt, assuming Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons and Serpent Shield.
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/similar.png
http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/waveserpent.gif

Although still valid for this discussion, I thought it worth pointing out that the pictures are out of date (from 6th edition) as a 6 without modification no longer makes vehicles explode in 7th edition.

AV10 open-top gets the same result no? That's side armor, closed top on the old table.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

Why don't we try this again from the start. A snap shooting wave serpent will not pose that much of a threat to your vehicles. That's all I'm saying. They average less than a hull point per turn and I consider that acceptably low enough to ignore for the turn. Do you disagree with that? I absolutely think wave serpents are devastating and versatile tools otherwise.

The Problem here is, that a Jinking Wave Serpent provides as much a threat for your vehicles as a stationary Ravager provides to a Serpent.
Scourges have also the added risk of getting killed by the Serpents inhabitants. The Dire Avengers.
Even if the scourges get the Serpent to jink (good chance they will) it just moves 6", the DA get out, move another 6" and shoot you at 18" with the option of battle focus movement if needed.
The real problem here is that we have NO WAY of dealing with serpent spam as it nullifies every single unit without really thinking too much.
As I said. The average Serpent spam list will include 6 Serpents, 4x5 DA, 2x5 Fire Dragons, 2x6 Hawks, naked Autarch and 2 Nightspinners.
I would even state that this list is not beatable by our codex unless you prepare specifically and add in Eldar yourself.

I would agree with this.

@Thor, why would a list not be necessary in this discussion? MSU would suggest you're either taking min Warriors with a Blaster in Venoms or Raiders. Raiders give you a AT solution, and a mini-Ravager within 18" of something. Venoms provide you with zero support vs. Mechdar in long-range duels, with only a 18" Blaster if you have the Warrior.

If you're suggesting MSU vs. Mechdar, then I'm hoping you're suggesting the Raider MSU variant. I would also like to point out that that variant, sucks against a ton of other armies out there that are not building mech, auto-lose vs. any Ork list with bodies, Necrons, and gets out-shot by Mech IG. I will do better vs. Tau and Mechdar, but Mechdar still outweighs your shots, durability and combat after Jink by at least 2x.

Honestly, the best solution I've read so far is taking that Talos bomb, but we all know that that is going to get run circles around and focused into the ground. It is the best solution vs. Mechdar variants, which the most popular ones are..

4x WS + any flavor of..
+Spiritseers, Wraithguard with D-scythes or stock
+Autarch + Fire Dragons + more WS
+Autarch/Farseer + 1-2 WK

HERO wrote:

AV10 open-top gets the same result no?  That's side armor, closed top on the old table.

Yes, but in the picture he is shooting a basilisk which is open topped (so exploding on a 5-6 in 6th edition). Whereas in 7th the explosion only happens on a 6 for open topped vehicles.

HERO wrote:

@Thor, why would a list not be necessary in this discussion?

Because inevitably the discussion will turn into a discussion about Thor's list rather than how to beat serpent spam.

If there's one thing people will never agree in on in 40k, it's an army list. An army list is hollow, it lists a bunch of unit but makes no suggestion of how the general of the army uses those units. I would take this even further and say without reading several battle reports about the list in question its often impossible to see the finer points of the list writers plan.

I also think suggesting that someone can present a "take all comers lists" in 40k has been a trick question since the start of 6th edition. There are just too many variables in the game now.

The best tournament lists take into account the local meta: most popular armies, amount of line of sight blocking terrain, popularity of vehicles, popularity of flyers, popularity of imperial knights, amount of cover, mission pack, eternal war style missions, maelstrom style missions, number of detachments, number of sources, lords of war, popularity of deathstars ... etc.

So whilst an army list might seem nonsensical out of context, when presented with the environment that it competes in its potency becomes more apparent. It's one of the reasons a lot of the tournament winning lists don't work as effectively when used in different environments, because they are invariably tailored to the tournament that they won.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

Again, I don't know how many times I can say all that is irrelevant to the comment I made that you disagreed with. Once you get one snap shooting, stop focusing on it and target something else because you're no longer efficiently directing your resources and reducing incoming damage if you focus on killing them one at a time instead of getting several of them to snap shoot.

A snap shooting ws should not be your priority for targets imo. since you're continuing to disagree with the only comment I've made on the subject, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and you can continue to focus on kills one at a time as you see fit.

Ok. Again.
Her is the problem:

You need A LOT of shooting to force my Sperpents to jink. Approx 3 times the pont value of the serpent. So how many serpents are you gonna make jink with that? 2? 3?
While the rest will kill 3 or more of your vehicles.
So your firepower to make Sperpents jink is getting smaller and smaller each turn. It is not "oh help a Ravager is firing at me and has a tiny chance to remove one HP and an even smaller chance to explode me.. I better jink now!"  Its rather "pfff... got 3 HP, I dont care. Ask me again when im down to 1"
So unless you are playing 4500 points vs 1500 you dont even have the firepower to make 1/3 of his Sperpents jink and will start losing 1/4 of your Army each turn.

Quote :

"You cannot reliably beat a tournament level list unless you are prepared for a tournament level list" is how I am reading that.

Prepairing specifically for one list is a bad Idea. Yes, you can run in multiple Sperpent Spam lists but then you lack the ability to get rid of other nasty lists. So if you dont have the absolute knowledge against which lists you will play on that tourney, preparing for a single list is a bad Idea... Sperpent Spam on the other hand is popular because it works against ANY list.

I've not said once what I think you should use to make the serpent jink. I've not said what army list you should build. I've not said how often I think the serpent will jink based on which weapon you fire at it. I've not said our army should beat theirs. I've not said we can make all of their serpents jink if they have 6. I've said none of that.

Look at what I have said: A snapshooting wave serpent will only average out about 1 hull point per turn. If you get one snapshooting then stop shooting at it. That's it. Make your complaint against that by showing they somehow average 5 hullpoints while jinking or just stop complaining. Nothing else you're saying is productive in this.

I'll gladly discuss other elements and tactical options if you'd like, but right now your argument is completely off topic to what I've said.

How is it off topic when I say:

"Force Serpents to jink by shooting them and when they jink try to force the next Sperpent to jink is NOT gonna working as you cant muster enough firepower to make that happen on a large enough scale"?

So the entire "theory" about jinking sperpents is invalid. You cant make them reliable Jink as you have to dedicate way too much firepower to threaten them enough to even consider jinking.

So the whole " If you get one snapshooting then stop shooting at it." doesnt even matter as you wont get any significant number of Serpents into snapshots.

This is about "How to beat Wave Serpent Spam" and a "let them jink and shoot another one" is not going to beat such a list. Because:
1) You need more firepower than you can muster with the new Dex
2) Your firepower shrinks every game turn
3) Even a jinking Serpent can still pose a Threat to fragile DE Transports and flyers

Quote :

So the entire "theory" about jinking sperpents is invalid. You cant make them reliable Jink as you have to dedicate way too much firepower to threaten them enough to even consider jinking.

You cant, when you only use ranged firepower, like Raiders and Ravagers. Sure, they will pick em apart. Thats why you move all the way forward with *everyhing*. What will WS player shoot? Grot boat, venoms with blasterborn or warrior with blasters, scourges, ravagers, reavers? Whatever it is, it is exposing itself next turn. No jink will help against close combat, and if WS use ignore cover shooting on the next turn it can be penetrated, thats the moment when you must supress.

To win you must have oversaturation, to be able to initially *push* very far and suffer the inevitable losses. You will either be able to do it, or not. Roll the dice and the bad things might happen.

Quote :

What will WS player shoot? Grot boat, venoms with blasterborn or warrior with blasters, scourges, ravagers, reavers? Whatever it is, it is exposing itself next turn.

How about... everything? If you want to achieve "oversaturation" you have to use equally threatening units. The problem here is that every single unit you mention here comes either at equal/higher cost than the Serpent (which means you have a Serpent for each threat, thus no "oversaturation") or gets killed pretty fast by the Rest of the Eldar army without even needing the Serpent to take care of.
Basically you lose more units a lot faster than the Eldar player loses his verhicles.
This is no grey theory. This is tested multiple times with my own Serpent Spam lists.
There is literally nothing in a Dark Eldar army that makes me afraid of losing vehicles (after HWG wyches are gone) as the Anti Tank options are either fragile or very expensive and in most cases... both.

Quote :

How about... everything? If you want to achieve "oversaturation" you have to use equally threatening units. The problem here is that every single unit you mention here comes either at equal/higher cost than the Serpent (which means you have a Serpent for each threat, thus no "oversaturation")

How much points are we talking here? You have more then 5 Serpents? How is it you can have a WS for every 120 points of my army? Any unit i have cost around 120-130 with the exception of blasterborn and grots. Each Seprent cost 205, if you are taking Holo-fields.

My 1750 Mechdar Spam list consists of 6 Serpents, 2 Night Spinners, 2x5 Hawks, 2x5 Fire Dragons, 4x5 DA and a naked Autarch.
For 1500 I cut 1 Serpent with DA and several ghost path matrices.

Also these are "all comers" lists. Doing also well against AV14 vehicles.