Are Tau an automatic loss?

I would suggest that in a TAC list, the rule of thumb should be attempting to deal with 12-18 AV12 hullpoints at or around 1500 points. For dark eldar this ensures you'll have enough AT, and since lances function well at anti-MEQ, TEQ & MC, you'll have a good basis for a strong list.

Tau in particular tend to field very few actual vehicles - a couple of AV10 skimmers in their piranha or tetras, and occasionally a skyray, but they do field a metric-f@c&-ton of multiwound T4 models.... Unfortunately they also bring buckets of dice in the same rangeband we want to be in... this means the ticket is proper model placement to ensure we're not subject to all their unrestrained firepower.

Barking Agatha wrote:

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

...the Riptide is about as scary as my dirty socks.

That actually sounds pretty scary!

I should probably clarify - scary if they hit you, but they're not very accurate.

Well, I played my game and it wasn't the most exciting thing in the world. Still though, here's the BR:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-2.html

Good game Hero. I always feel bad after killing off friends shiny new models! But you nailed it with what you did. Force crisis suits to take cover/inv on instant death and overwhelm high T units! The pathfinder point is very important. If you cant take out the nasty stuff that hurts your vehicles take out those markerlights. If you can remove the nasty stuff a markerlight isn't going to do much!

First turn is still so important for us. I would be interested to see how it would have been if he had seized!

This is the list I used and lost with. I realise it may be a bit unorthodox, but with a new codex you want to try some options. (I marked their fate behind them) The coven units is in italic

HQ

Archon, SF, Armour of Misery, Power sword, parasite kiss (His transport was destroyed by a broadside shot and he was stranded with his incubi at least 2 rounds of running from any safety. He didn't make it)

Haemonculus, webway portal, animus vitae (Only realised after that he couldn't use those) (Deepstriking behind enemy lines with the 10 wracks, and proceeded to decimate a unit of kroot, two minor units of firewarriors and a crisis suit before they finally colapsed to shooting)

Haemonculus, hexrifle (One of the last to die. He took the center with the unit of grotesques and the talos)

Elite

4 incubi in venom w splinter canon (Archon bodyguard. All but one died in the open. The last one engaged 12 firewarriors in CC, and took Down 3 before he fell to his wounds)

10 mandrakes (With their new rules I had to try. That was before I remembered the markerlights)

10 wracks, two liquifiers (With the haemonculus, deepstriking)

5 wracks, in venom w. splinter canon and ossefactor (Failed a jink save and was destroyed by a crisis suit. Was seeking protection with the grotesques and the talos but died to massive shooting)

4 grotesques , liquifier (Walked with the haemonculus and talos up the board. Very durable, expecially when they got IWND. Fell along with their Company when the tau focussed all their shooting on them)

Troops

2 x 10 kabalites in Raider (NS, Splinterwracks, DL) w. splinter canon

Fast

5 scourges, 4 haywire blasters (Didn't want to deepstrike them, fearing the intercept ability of the crisis suits, so I tried to jump between cover towards the hammerheads. Unfortunatly they were shot to pieces as the Tau commander suit and his crisis suit bodyguards entered the field right behind them)

Heavy

Talos, twinlinked liquifier (After massive shooting finally succumbing to its wounds in 5. round)

Ravager, disintegrators and NS. (Took out a few units of infantry, but due to jinking wasn't as effective as it could be. Ran out of HP eventually)


I cannot remember the Tau list, but it was build up with a strong core of firewarriors. Two large units of 12 and a few smaller ones. Also a 15 strong kroot unit (first time he tried them) that failed to impress any of us
They were backed up by several suits and as support markerlight units backed up by two broadside suits. Finally two hammerheads with ion canons

Yeah I think your issue here was lack of stuff to cause instant death or strip armour saves along with not enough dakka. Your army is quite divided (trying out new stuff is fine and fun but throwing them at the meat grinder known as Tau may not be the best play test!).

Not having first turn is painful, footslogging is horrible for our stuff. If you were to play him again, try and use some reavers to get into his face to take the heat off your transports. Take some blasters and lances to take out the broadsides/crisis suits and get the grots/incubi/wracks into something squishy. Haywire the hammerheads and tie up battlesuits with the talos. You want to cut them down in combat I think. I would drop the mandrakes in exchange for a warrior squad with blaster in a raider perhaps.

Also, try and get first turn or get some LoS blocking terrain to hide behind!

Grub wrote:

(trying out new stuff is fine and fun but throwing them at the meat grinder known as Tau may not be the best play test!).

In my defence I thought he would bring his sisters ;-´)

Didn't get first turn unfortunatly. Otherwise good ideas. I really wanted some reavers in the list, but they didn't make the cut

Haha fair enough. Nothing wrong with trying out new units combos, its fun that way! Less fun when you get shredded by the anti-DE list!

Always a problem when tailoring - i did that once expecting a guy to bring his ork list against my marines. Instead he showed up with Chaos Marines, including a forgefiend, Daemon Prince, and two Heldrakes. I very nearly conceded before turn 1.

That's why you always build for all-comers!

@HERO,

read your batrep. Unfortunately that Tau list was very far from optimized - hell I wouldn't even call it baseline competitive. Are you going to post that rep up on TDC so your fellow Archons can comment / discuss?

It's already up on this site in 3 different locations!  Either use my army thread in the army lists section or the realspace raids section.

I completely understand and even stated that I felt like the list wasn't very optimal, but it doesn't change the fact that in 2 turns, I killed 2 Riptides (one FW), a unit of Warriors, a big unit of Kroot, a unit of Broadsides, and a Knarloc (dies to poison like crazy), while taking virtually no damage in return.

This exemplifies what a min-maxed shooty heavy list can do vs. Tau.  If there was another unit of Broadsides, I would have channeled shots into them next until they disappear, while the Riptide I don't really care about.  At best on his turn, he could have killed a Raider or a Ravager, or maybe even both.  But by now I'm in Blaster range and the number of lances increase dramatically.  That's when the fun really starts.

The WWP Archon and Blasteborn behind a unit of Broadsides can be absolutely devastating.  They all just vanish, poof.  That's one of the reasons I advocate lances so heavily, because they're so multi-purposed and devastating against so many different unit types.

Edit, now with link:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10474-de-tbr-2-1850-pure-de-vs-tau

Ok then,

Help me beat this: [img]https://servimg.com/view/19014776/5][/url][/img]

with these restrictions:
http://www.giantfanatic.dk/restrictions-wh40k/

Scorpion, can you post an army you'd want to use against this & we can critique your selections and offer some target priority tips?

Hah!
Finally kicked butt vs the Farsight bomb!

Thanks everyone for the tips & tricks I picked up from here, a 4-model Medusa WWP drop with Blaster Archon in a Venom totalled his Crisis blob.

Laughingcarp wrote:

Hah!
Finally kicked butt vs the Farsight bomb!

Thanks everyone for the tips & tricks I picked up from here, a 4-model Medusa WWP drop with Blaster Archon in a Venom totalled his Crisis blob.

Great job!

1++; Cheers! And my friend said this in reply to your signature/quote from Grub of "I can also confirm that proofreading only occurs in games workshop on a 6+".
He says "No way, it only happens on 7+ so the book must be open-topped."

My question now is how are we supposed to kill an Iridium Suit commander with a Shield Generator and Stimulant Injector in CC?
This monstrosity has 4W, 2+/4++, FNP, T5, WS4, and 4 Attacks.
In my match my Archon accomplished exactly nothing, while taking an average of two wounds/turn on his Shadowfield.
I ran the numbers. A Shadowfield Agoniser Archon and Commander will be effectively locked in a stalemate for longer than a full game.
A Succubus with Glaive starts off losing a war of attrition. Serpentin (+1WS) makes it an even damage-dealing siege. Except the Commander has 1 extra wound.
A Succubus with Glaive, Grave Lotus (+1S), that successfully gets off a Furious Charge does 1 wound before going back to dealing less damage than the Commander every round thereafter.

So the answer is "Kill it with FIRE!", right?
Except if you don't tie it up in CC it wins even harder because its unit has a zillion guns, ignores Cover and is entirely Twin-Linked. Usually with Target Locks to take down multiple DE units.

Laughingcarp wrote:

My question now is how are we supposed to kill an Iridium Suit commander with a Shield Generator and Stimulant Injector in CC?
This monstrosity has 4W, 2+/4++, FNP, T5, WS4, and 4 Attacks.
In my match my Archon accomplished exactly nothing, while taking an average of two wounds/turn on his Shadowfield.
I ran the numbers. A Shadowfield Agoniser Archon and Commander will be effectively locked in a stalemate for longer than a full game.
A Succubus with Glaive starts off losing a war of attrition. Serpentin (+1WS) makes it an even damage-dealing siege. Except the Commander has 1 extra wound.
A Succubus with Glaive, Grave Lotus (+1S), that successfully gets off a Furious Charge does 1 wound before going back to dealing less damage than the Commander every round thereafter.

Without any charge bonus, accounting for FNP and without any combat drug effect, I make it that the Glaive Succubus does 0.66 wounds per round compared to the Commander's 0.44. Give her the armour of misery for a LD8 check every turn or WS 1 (changing the Commanders damage to 0.29 wounds).

So let's think ideal situation, which is a Furious Charge with +1S drug - 5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.11 unsaved
In return, the Commander fails his Ld check and does 4 attacks, 1.33 hits, 0.88 wounds, 0.44 unsaved, 0.29 wounds after FNP.
After the first turn, the Succubus deals 0.66/turn and the Commander deals 0.44. The Succubus kills the Commander in 6 assault phases and takes 2.49 wounds in return.

That's still a ridiculous situation for the pinnacle of gladiatorial combat vs a guy in a suit who doesn't know one end of a sword from the other.

EDIT - Forgot that the Tau has FNP too. Forget all that then. Bring Disintegrators!!

I think talos can do. But not sure if smash or regular attacks would be better?...

These drop in squads are the one of the main reasons why I am strongly considering one. It should help maintain my backfield as MY backfield after bikes and grots charged to the front :-)

Aroban wrote:

I think talos can do. But not sure if smash or regular attacks would be better?...

Smash is 1 attack only but the possibility of ID (and no FNP). It's a 28% chance of killing him each round. Normal attacks do 0.74 wounds per round so would take 6 assault phases to kill him off.

Ok cool thanks for the math ;-)

That's still quite dissatisfying, thought chances would be better... But then I imagine the tau player shivering every cc turn that it happens this turn: his mighty commander gets stomped into the ground by that one single blow :-D

Aroban wrote:

Ok cool thanks for the math ;-)

That's still quite dissatisfying, thought chances would be better... But then I imagine the tau player shivering every cc turn that it happens this turn: his mighty commander gets stomped into the ground by that one single blow :-D

On the plus side, the commander does virtually nothing against the Talos - 4 attacks, 2 hits, 0.33 wounds, 0.11 unsaved, 0.07 with FNP! If only the Talos could challenge!

Forgot to mention chainflails, should move the chances to 32,4% each turn.

That's an upgrade which is autopick for me.

Ichor injector might speed things up too?

The absolute worst thing about assault in 40k, for me, is the 'to hit' table. Did GW forget that the numbers 1, 2 and 6 exist? A WS8 Succubus fighting against a (potentially) WS1 opponent still only hits on a 3+! The goon she's fighting, hits on a 5+. Absolutely ridiculous.