Dark Eldar and Harliquins

Hey, every game with my Death Jester his Cannon shows its use. It has blown up Rhinos, finished up a Dreadknight, and got some reliable wounds down-field.

They're not the best solution period for shooting but as far as CC goes I think they are in the top 3 (Wychs, Incubi, Harlequins are my top 3) not only because of the Troupe Master with a Power Weapon, Invulnerable Saves, and Rending but mainly because of the WS 5.

Smurfy wrote:

Hey, every game with my Death Jester his Cannon shows its use. It has blown up Rhinos, finished up a Dreadknight, and got some reliable wounds down-field.

They're not the best solution period for shooting but as far as CC goes I think they are in the top 3 (Wychs, Incubi, Harlequins are my top 3) not only because of the Troupe Master with a Power Weapon, Invulnerable Saves, and Rending but mainly because of the WS 5.

Well maybe so but the point is others can do it better. I've seen Baharroth do massive damage to an army, that doesn't mean he's worth the points, he just got lucky.

In your top 3 I'd put Hellions there instead, unless you've put them under Wyches already. Hellions are cheaper, faster, have more firepower, have power from pain and combat drugs, and with the Baron are even more survivable. The loss of rending is made up for by the considerably larger number of attacks and wounds. I don't care if Harlequins have an invulnerable save, it's only a 5+, so any vaguely decent amount of shooting guns down their 22pts each with ease. Like I said, you need fortune and to a lesser extent doom for them to work, and even then the Eldar have better things to spend their points on.

Who cares, they look fantastic!


And if you are fielding them, becouse of looks or whatever, it is very much worth 10 points to get 3S6-shots and loose one rending attack in hth.

Thumbs up @ speedfreek.

What are we? Crafworlders all of a sudden?! The looks are far more important than tactics ofcourse. What are you all thinking?

"so any vaguely decent amount of shooting guns "

So we don't factor in Veil of Tears in at all? Also can factor in Flip Belts meaning the Death Jester can peek out while the rest of the unit hides behind something, only select few targets can retaliate, while they just hop out of hiding no problem?

"22pts each"

18 each really, if you're giving everyone a kiss maybe, I'm not, I like to use Hit and Run where I can and units hitting back after a the Troupe Master and only a few Kisses reap their tolls don't usually wipe the Harlies out unless you're gunning for CC Masters like Hammernators/Paladins/Tyranid Warriors. (And what do I usually against Hammernators and the like? Torrent them down with firepower.)

I know I'm being Mr. Devil's Advocate.

Smurfy wrote:

"so any vaguely decent amount of shooting guns "

So we don't factor in Veil of Tears in at all? Also can factor in Flip Belts meaning the Death Jester can peek out while the rest of the unit hides behind something, only select few targets can retaliate, while they just hop out of hiding no problem?

My point is that once they charge, as they can no longer sweep into combat, they're then in very close range of your opponent's guns, and Veil of Tears won't help you unless the opponent rolls abysmally. Incubi can survive this, and Wyches can survive it better than Harlequins due to power from pain, and even if they do die they're only 10pts. Also, the Shadowseer is 30pts, so then the price is even higher, and you will almost certainly be taking a Shadowseer.

For the record, I love Harlequins and I'm sad that they're not all that good, they're probably my most favourite faction in all of 40k. I have a load of them, but I usually only use them in Apocalypse and Kill-Team.

If you're using them on foot, yes a Shadowseer is mandatory. Hoping to steal a Transport? Then not so much. Either way, their survivability is from Hit and Run, which allows you to go any direction and land in/behind any terrain in a roughly 11" area (average on 3D6, is that ok?)

Retaliatory fires happen on Wychs usually it's a Flamer if anything, usually gets them still.
Incubi once they get FNP can be pretty hardy, I respect that.

But as you can see each has their own form of survivabilty

Smurfy wrote:

If you're using them on foot, yes a Shadowseer is mandatory. Hoping to steal a Transport? Then not so much. Either way, their survivability is from Hit and Run, which allows you to go any direction and land in/behind any terrain in a roughly 11" area (average on 3D6, is that ok?)

All true, but fact remains they have to stomach two rounds of cc with T3 5++ bodies. That's why I never skimped on Kisses; each kill the Harlies make is another (few) attack(s) less aimed back at them. Plus, you never know when that Ini test comes up 6

Smurfy wrote:

I know I'm being Mr. Devil's Advocate.

Doing a good job of it, too.

GreySeerZ wrote:

And about the deathjester vs. armor. ROFL.

Against armor 10 (assuming you even make it within 24"):

3 shots, 2 hit, 0.66 pen, 0.44 destroy. I wouldn't consider the cannon good at destroying ANY vehicles, possibly disabling, yes, but your dark lances have a much better chance at doing both and don't require a ridiculous amount of points to do it.

Just have to comment here, S6 is pretty good for light anti tank, I know, my jetbike eldar can only use that (yes I have some dragons but they can only do so much)

but a death jester is only one model, but S6 is somethnig dark eldar can't get anywhere else at range (IIRC), and it being an assault weapon, i think in a venom it can add something (maybe not worth the points but)

Shredders and Mono-scythe are both S6 aren't they?
But still, you make a valid point.

adreal wrote:

Just have to comment here, S6 is pretty good for light anti tank, I know, my jetbike eldar can only use that (yes I have some dragons but they can only do so much)

but a death jester is only one model, but S6 is somethnig dark eldar can't get anywhere else at range (IIRC), and it being an assault weapon, i think in a venom it can add something (maybe not worth the points but)

Right, definitely agree here. But why pay a ridiculous amount of points for 1 3-shot S6 weapon, when for less points you can afford a ravager with 3 dark lances... Don't get me wrong, I love harlequins, but they are super expensive for what they accomplish. Also most armies (at least the 80% power armor weilding ones I run into) are T4, more S8 weapons = more insta-kills. S6 is very situational. Its real benefit will only be noticed on a mobile craft (venom/Vyper) or in mass (war-walkers). Eldar have a lot of platforms which are great for scatter lasers. A 100 pt+ unit on foot with T3 and a 5++ save is NOT a good platform for 1 3-shot S6 weapon, even if it is assault.

It is really the cost of harlequins that make them a bad choice to take. There are so many other units (in our Codex especially) that perform similar roles better for a cheaper price. Sure one of harlequin units strengths is its versatility, but it is not A+ in any area and a good general should be able to set his target priority with uni-role units well enough to not need multi-role ones.

Games where Harlequins can be used to good effect? Kill-team, City Fight, etc. Basically anything where they can run around solo, have lots of terrain/cover, there is a lack of vehicles and they can wipe out units without fear of massed retaliation. In normal 40k games there are just way too many turtling space marine armies. Sure you may takeout that one tact squad, but now you have 20+ bolter shots wounding on 3s with only a 5++ save, or even deadlier, the dreaded flamer/heavy flamer simply toasting your entire squad.

Smurfy wrote:

If you're using them on foot, yes a Shadowseer is mandatory. Hoping to steal a Transport? Then not so much. Either way, their survivability is from Hit and Run, which allows you to go any direction and land in/behind any terrain in a roughly 11" area (average on 3D6, is that ok?)

And that's my point, you have to rely on rolling high enough to get into terrain, and even then it's just T3 with a 4+ save. They just aren't going to kill their points worth before dying, because they're so many points even basic. Incubi can laugh at any armoured elite unit except for Paladins with Halberds, Harlequins can, for the same cost, rend. That's just not nearly as good. Their superior mobility is notable for Craftworld Eldar, but for Dark Eldar it's not much better than the Incubi being in a raider. They have their place in the Eldar codex, but they just don't have anything different to offer to the Dark Eldar, they were put in there for fluff purposes (and I'm glad that they did) but not much else. As I've said before, the Eldar have psychic powers and a need for their kind of mobility and flexibility... the Dark Eldar have neither.

I have to disagree that Harlies V Hellions can be discussed in terms of one competing with less stuff in their respective slots. So many lists spam Trueborn (X3 even) that Harlies have a hard time fitting in, but the Hellions also have to compete with 3X Reavers.

Given a list that takes both three squads of Trueborn and three squads of Reavers, then asked to drop one unit to fit in either a Hellion squad or a Harlequin squad, I would feel it is a toss up.

Taking Harlequins is complicated because they aren't different than Eldar ones and people tend to think of them as functioning the same, even though DE are a fairly different army. I don't really like them as a counterattack squad because we have better ones. They aren't tarpits because we have better ones. I am starting to think Harlies are either a fluff choice or there to draw attention. In the first case, take whatever you want. In the second, take a giant squad and put them out there for an opponent to worry about and see what happens.

Ah but the thing is if you're taking Hellions they're probably troops, as you're probably taking the Baron. They still perform the same role, only Hellions are more survivable due to the Baron, and have Power from Pain. The only thing the Harlequins really have up on them is the Shadowseer and higher WS, and the Baron does a similar job to the Shadowseer... and makes it easier to go first!

As you say, they're the same as the Eldar ones and are really just there for the fluff. They should have made them useful again, it's not like I'd complain that they were better than the Eldar codex ones, I play both and I'd be really happy to know that they'd be getting better, same for Drazhar and the Phoenix Lords. As it is, it just fills me with worry that they won't be improved in the Eldar codex, unless of course the rules of 6th edition make them good again.

a1elbow wrote:

Taking Harlequins is complicated because they aren't different than Eldar ones and people tend to think of them as functioning the same, even though DE are a fairly different army. I don't really like them as a counterattack squad because we have better ones. They aren't tarpits because we have better ones. I am starting to think Harlies are either a fluff choice or there to draw attention. In the first case, take whatever you want. In the second, take a giant squad and put them out there for an opponent to worry about and see what happens.

I swear by the second one. Harlequins have a mass of "weird" special rules, and (as I'm fond of saying) they really scare old-timers like me. They might have never really lived up to their "ultimate deathstar" reputation, but anyone who was playing the game in the 90s is still going to eye them up uneasily.

Nepenthe wrote:

a1elbow wrote:

Taking Harlequins is complicated because they aren't different than Eldar ones and people tend to think of them as functioning the same, even though DE are a fairly different army. I don't really like them as a counterattack squad because we have better ones. They aren't tarpits because we have better ones. I am starting to think Harlies are either a fluff choice or there to draw attention. In the first case, take whatever you want. In the second, take a giant squad and put them out there for an opponent to worry about and see what happens.

I swear by the second one. Harlequins have a mass of "weird" special rules, and (as I'm fond of saying) they really scare old-timers like me. They might have never really lived up to their "ultimate deathstar" reputation, but anyone who was playing the game in the 90s is still going to eye them up uneasily.

They were a pretty terrifying unit in 4th edition, they could just dart between combats turning most of the enemy army into a fine soup!

Anggul wrote:

Nepenthe wrote:

a1elbow wrote:

Taking Harlequins is complicated because they aren't different than Eldar ones and people tend to think of them as functioning the same, even though DE are a fairly different army. I don't really like them as a counterattack squad because we have better ones. They aren't tarpits because we have better ones. I am starting to think Harlies are either a fluff choice or there to draw attention. In the first case, take whatever you want. In the second, take a giant squad and put them out there for an opponent to worry about and see what happens.

I swear by the second one. Harlequins have a mass of "weird" special rules, and (as I'm fond of saying) they really scare old-timers like me. They might have never really lived up to their "ultimate deathstar" reputation, but anyone who was playing the game in the 90s is still going to eye them up uneasily.

They were a pretty terrifying unit in 4th edition, they could just dart between combats turning most of the enemy army into a fine soup!

That's the only edition of 40k I missed.

a1elbow wrote:

I have to disagree that Harlies V Hellions can be discussed in terms of one competing with less stuff in their respective slots. So many lists spam Trueborn (X3 even) that Harlies have a hard time fitting in, but the Hellions also have to compete with 3X Reavers.

Reavers aren't nearly as widely included as Blasterborn. Also, Fast Attack slots seem to be the last to be filled when building DE lists - I've yet to play against a list with all 3 FA slots filled, let alone 3x Reavers...

I fill the fast attack slots in most of my lists, and the only time I used 3 elites was in a 3000pt game. before the scourge models came out it was with 3 reaver units, now I use 2 scourge units and reavers in the third if I have extra points. Most games I have no Elites, last game my only elite was 5 wracks. My lists are probably not typical though.

abjectus wrote:

I fill the fast attack slots in most of my lists, and the only time I used 3 elites was in a 3000pt game. before the scourge models came out it was with 3 reaver units, now I use 2 scourge units and reavers in the third if I have extra points. Most games I have no Elites, last game my only elite was 5 wracks. My lists are probably not typical though.

+1

Since new dex came out I never used 3 elite slots, I find it difficult to not having full FA/HS(cuz there are the greatest models/units)....with elites I can play with clowns/grotes/incubi/mandrakes.....

Well blastborns are come kind of cannon these days...but Its smells like sternquard/choosen/Vet with meltas/plasmas..... Some ppl still play DE like they play power armour...

I think one of the most confusing oversights of the DE Codex is that Harlies can't take a Venom as a dedicated transport. In addition to the fact that that alone makes them very hard to use (aside from any arguments that other DE untis do what they do better), it is baffling as the Venom came from the old Codex Harlequins. They created the darn craft.

Allowing the DE to fight with Harlies is cool and makes sense. Giving the DE use of the Venom is cool and makes sense. Not letting Harlies take Venoms as transports... wha... huh?

If they could then they would have an excellent use that no other DE unit could fill. As multipurpose, extra redundancy units in a DS list. They are good at shooting and in combat, and that versatility would be quite useful when DSing most of or all of your army. It would allow to you be much more flexible with deployment and would help buffer the randomization of DS and it would make it very difficult for your opponent to anticipate your intentions with them. DSing would also make them much more likely to get to their targets alive.