A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

-Ligolski-
Well of course Eldar will ally nicely with DE. There is even a Crimson Hunter formation which we need more than d-weapons, IMHO. Not that d-weapons would not be useful as well.

-Its_Rumble-
Comparing two scatterlaser eldar jetbikes to one harlequin jetbike? I think it answers itself.

That's a somewhat unfair statement. Quin bikes hav 5++, 4++ for 1 turn against shooting, Star bolas if you don't upgrade, fear, furious charge, and hit & run. Plus they have Shuriken Cannons and 1 extra wound. That's a lot of special rules for about 19 points more if you spend 81 points on 3 bikes by upgrading the scatterlasers. The eldar have the 3+ and 12 shots for 3. If you are comparing just the shooting then even then during one round where you could get those star bolas into shooting it would look like the harlequins could still pump out some serious dakka. Not as clear cut for me.

A 3+ save is just fine for Eldar jetbikes. You can  - need to see the rules - also add a warlock to any squad now which probably will be unnecessary but I'll comment when I know more. And scatterlasers pump out more shots then those shuriken cannons. Also the star bolas needs to be 12" away. and is one time only. Certainly three eldar jetbikes outperform harlequin bikes in shooting. Harlequins can add haywire of course - nice  - but extra rules for assault are meh on small squad sizes that probably should never be in assault. Also ekdar bikes are ObSec troops - pretty significant. Now don't get me wrong. I think the harlie bikes are sweet. I'm a little surprised that DE jetbikes were not mentioned as well as a comparison. They also have some neat rules, great upgrades and can function as both AT/AI. That said, the eldar bikes now are about the best troop slot in 40k.

Now this is only a humble Duck's opinion (well maybe not so humble). I think harlies are an interesting list but I do not think they will be near as strong as eldar now. You could however start building jetbike armies with harlies, DE and  eldar as allies - something I've done in the past actually. However, I doubt there is a need to as eldar will pretty much stand on its own.

Here we go. Realspace Raiders detachment with 6 units of Reavesr, Eldar CAD with 6 units of windriders. Let's build it.



Obviously Harlies being competitive was not my argument. I was just saying that bike for bike the skyweaver puts up a good fight.

So I know you guys were waiting for the cheddar. How much dakka can a 1850 Skitarii put out?

The Cheese Stands Alone
Skitarri 1850

CRUX MECHANICUS MANIPLE 1: 610
10 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex (warlord here)
2x 5 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 2 Arc Rifles, Omnispex
1 Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance, Phosphor Serpenta, Broad Spectrum Data-thether  
3x 1 Ironstrider Ballistarus: 2 Twin-Linked Cognis Autocannons,  Broad Spectrum Data-Tether, Search Light

CRUX MECHANICUS MANIPLE 2: 600
10 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex
2x 5 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 2 Arc Rifles, Omnispex
1 Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance, Broad Spectrum Data-thether :
3x 1 Ironstrider Ballistarus: 2 Twin-Linked Cognis Autocannons,  Broad Spectrum Data-Tether, Search Light

CRUX MECHANICUS MANIPLE 3: 640
10 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 3 Plasma Calivers, Omnispex
2x 5 Skitarii Vanguard: Radium Carbines, 2 Arc Rifles, Omnispex
1 Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance, Phosphor Serpenta, Broad Spectrum Data-thether
1 Ironstrider Ballistarus: Twin-Linked Cognis Autocannons,  Broad Spectrum Data-Tether, Search Light
1 Onager Dunecrawler : Neutron Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Manipulator

81 radium carbine shots, 21 with re-rolls
27 plasma caliver shots, 9 with re-rolls  
12 rapid fire S6 haywire arc rifles
14 cognis auto cannon shots twin-linked  
1 neutron blast
2 Phosphor Serpenta
3 cognis heavy stubber (BS2 snap shots)
24 S8 I6 attacks on the charge + 3 HoW. (bonus attacks on 6s)

-Radium Carbine (S3 AP5 18" Assault 3, Rad Poisoning: causes 2 wounds on a to wound roll of 6)
-Plasma Caliver (S7 AP2 18" Assault 3, Gets Hot)
-Twin-Linked Cognis Autocannon (S7 AP4 48" Heavy 2, Cognis: BS2 when firing Snapshots or Overwatch)
-Arc Rifle (S6, Haywire, 24",  Rapid Fire)
-Taser Lance (+2S, autowound twice on 6s)
-Neutron Blast (S10, AP1, Concussive , Blast)
-Phosphor Serpenta (18" Assault 1 S5, AP4, Luminagen - re roll charge distance , -1 to cover on wound/glance)
-Cognis manipulator (IWND and S10 AP1 CC attacks) - lone onagers NEED this.
-Omnispex (-1 to Cover save)

Note: this list is based on rad poisoning. Only vehicles can survive that punishment and you have answers for vehicles.  With scout this list is in assault and shooting range turn two ( some shooting turn one is possible). It is relentless as well so you can move and shoot. All the vanguard have FNP. The best part of this list is how scalable it is. You can move up from 600 - 1850 using the components of the list and play at any points level. Even Tau cannot out shoot you.

When playing the list the trick is to use scout, cruader, dunewalker and relentless to position your units for maximum threat overload. You are forcing your opponent to target 20 smaller units almost all of them being redundant. It will succeed if you can apply the pressure early. As the game wears on and you begin losing units your effectiveness will drop.

A Crux mechanisus maniple, BTW, gets scout, crusader, prefered enemy on warlord squad, and a re roll for warlord traits. Standard - wooot. It is important to note that radium carbines will wound GMCs, MCs et all. Bring them on. WKs, Riptides, IKs all will be wounded. On 6's you are going to be forced to make some saves.

It has weaknesses to be sure but it can compete even with Tau or the new Eldar on the level of dakka it will pour out. Will it win tournaments? I think it might at least contend if handled with care and thought.

Loving all the good skitarri stuff! Keep it up.

here is my first video batrep! Check out my current list!
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12061-ligolski-s-first-video-batrep-de-vs-nids#135131

People need to stop whining about the Eldar codex and just deal with it. I have a friend who plays I run Orikanstar which is pure bs. He also has the Conclave of the Burning One with Nightbringer which is a royal pain and a Destroyer Cult which will remove all my units from the board if I do not pay attention. No one has suggested that Necrons should not be played. Unfortunately I cannot field any army against his Nec list because it counters most of my units pretty efficiently in some of my builds.

Eldar will be the same. There will be builds that they will run over. Meh. I'm not thrilled about it. But I'll deal with it by building a list I think can stay on the table with Eldar. Unfortunately it will not be DE.

I get that people are upset. I really do. But I am tired of the endless internet discussions preaching all doom and gloom. The same was said about IKs and other GMCs. Other than a revenant titan I'll pretty much play against anything. Let's hold off and see what transpires over the next few months. Let's see what beats Eldar at tournaments and reserve our whining until it is proven they are unbeatable.

I know I posted on other threads that Eldar are in many ways under costed and over powered. I'm not recanting those posts. But I also said that the better players will learn to adapt and beat those spammed Eldar lists. We know that tournaments bring out the WAAC players. Regardless of whether or not the new Eldar codex was released that trend won't stop. Among friends set your own rules and limitations if you feel the need and want fun games. I know I will.

So look at this list (rarely played, BTW, but a beast):

CAD
Orikan the Diviner
Varguard Obyron

Lychguard w/ Shields x10

Warriors x10
Warriors x10
Gauss Immortals x5
Gauss Immortals x5

13 Flayed Ones

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Voidreaper, Phase Shifter)
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)
Destroyers x3 (one Heavy)

Shieldguard with Orikan: 8/9 (88.89%) saved - that is pretty darn incredible. Orikan is a master chronomancer so he add +! to RP rolls and you get reroll !s on saving throws too. Empower him and you get  a 4++ rerolling 1s and a 4+ RP with 4 AP2 attacks rerolling to hit at WS5 and S7. The dispersion shield lynchguard get T5 with 3++/4++. You do not want these guys counter charging. Now we throw in Obyron with a great save and a destroyer lord. What does this mean? You will make 90% of your wound saves. You need 100 wounds to take this star out.

So you are going to say - well - it is slow. You don’t want to use Obyron’s ability - he can scatter and then … Guess what. Necrons play at mid table. Your troops and destroyers will not be charged when you have that wall protect icing them and that wall can stretch 28”. You will get all the objectives from mid table back. You will be near unassailable and extremely difficult to kill.

The flayed ones will be joined by the d-lord once he gets into position to further add a cc element and to really distract the opponent. You cannot ignore them. This is the unit that can you can use for a few shenanigans. Both the d-lord and obyron can join them to veil up the table. They can just DS with the d-lord (risky), they can infiltrate and have the lord join them turn two (must survive turn one).

Maelstrom does favor fast units but it also favors assault. This is a list you do not get to assault. You do not have the board presence this list has. Armies tend to come together mid table. Good luck facing this mid table. There is a reason the last big tournament was won by a plaguestar backed by screamers.

Lists like these will at least challenge Eldar. Think positive.

Seems like the Eldar Codex may be for IMperial Knights what Tau Empire were for Flyers: an exhortation to the meta to encourage more types of armies and less Godzillas. When flyers came out they ruled the skies. Remember the hatred over the hellturkey of all things? The Tau Empire restored sanity and made taking flyers a CHOICE instead of an automatic.

Obelisks are a thing and if you haven't used one yet: start soon. Imperial Knights. the push for freaking Lynx's and the list goes on. D weapons make you pause and think "hmm... hordes could be good..."

I dunno. I'm more concerned about the perception of it frankly than the reality. I think the social contract in gaming makes it worse than its actual performance on the field. But I like a world where Imperial KNights have to actually be guarded and shielded and may not be able to simply walk up and overwhelm anything they please.

I also like how important this makes close combat tactics. Another step towards making it more and more perceptually viable (its already viable, people just haven't caught on)

Doxy may you please develop on you're view on close combat tactics?

There is a false perception that close combat does not work as well as shooting in 7ed. Despite evidence to the conbtratry - plague drones and screamers won the last big tournament. Now its funny. J and I were discussing whether or not we should do a write up on asault in 7ed before you asked Cat. Now you have pushed us, lol.

The key is getting those units into assault. This can be done even without transports.
Daemonkin - Maulerfiends, Hounds, Juggy Lords
Necrons - Wraiths, Flayed Ones and durable Lynchguard
DE - WWP grots or grots in a raider

There are two keys - be very durable and march up the table - take a ten man unit of meganobs behind an ork wall as an example. have ways to outflank/infiltrate scout/DS or take that transport.

So why assault. MAELSTROM. Do not believe the hype that you need fast units. You need to have a lot more board presence, and while our shooting units can back up the midfield assault, once two armies start to come together on midfield objectives, assault is inevitable. Having good assault options is a good thing when your opponent might also have to get to that same objective. In fact, I think Maelstrom Objectives brought back assault in ways that people just haven't realized yet.

Assault units - take out both infantry and vehicles. You need to create a wall that your opponent cannot really get around easily. That is what Orikanstar does - it fills the mid table with bodies. It is durable. It is very killy. That is what T-wolf deathstars do. Also the HQs in these units can split off and create multi-assaults. I've examined all of these types of deathstars in this thread. If you follow it you understand.

Read tournament reports - Plague Drone Star, Thunderwolf Calvary, Screamerstar, Bikestar, even CSM Juggerherald with spawn. You will see it with regularity at tournaments. You have to have a good assault option  to intercept, destroy and deal with it.

Now do not misunderstand - assault needs shooting to back it up. Orks fail when they have no shooting (J will probably contend this). When you see my assault centric lists you will note that most have a shooting element as well. I feel this is what balances the assault deathstars. Many assault units also can shoot too. A DP with psychic scream and devourers can shoot you and assault. This is why I love the Wrath of Khorne Thirster - he shoots and assaults well.

So 7ed - the new meta does favor some assault in some form or another. Discuss.

My lists generally always have a strong assault unit. Be that Grots or Talos I think it's kind of necessary it adds a way for you to get in someones face. Just adds another avenue to go during your game play. It affects board control, the psyche of your opponent, and also adds a great way to distract your opponent from shooting at the important things.

Something I would like to touch at is how you can use an assault unit to affect your opponents decisions despite whether or not you effectively get the unit into assault. Also I'll touch into some recent games I've had and How I used my new grot star with Imperial Bunker. (Partial props to Egorey for the grots in the bunker)

Here's some "Tricknology" (Wargamer Fritz). When playing anyone I'll give a good rundown on my list what everything has and it weapons. However when I start explaining my melee unit I make a conscious effort to get visibly excited when I start explaining the unit. Obviously I am excited to run it, whether it's Talos, Grots, or something silly like a max unit of Bloodbrides. I do this in the hopes that I have at least a competent player and they will pick up on my cues. I want them to think that this unit is important to me winning, which it is. So I portray this aura of urgency around the unit I get them excited about It, I explain how many attacks it is, what special rules they have, how nasty they are in CC. I want them worried about that unit despite whether or not it really should be worried about. Clearly as the owner of the unit I want it to get into close combat and do well however I understand that those aren't just the only way to run the unit. These melee units allow the rest of my army to score. 5 talos on the table or 6 grots running around with 3 characters in the unit is a much larger footprint than 3-5 warriors sitting behind some trees on an objective. When in reality those 3-5 warriors on the objective are winning me the game. Sometimes I even chose to "forget to shoot" with those min squads of warriors depending on the atmosphere of the game. If I really need those extra 5-10 shots then yes obviously I am a min maxer I will get my shots off. However if I think that I can get my opponent to forget my scoring unit sitting on an objective until it's too late? Perfect.

So here are some things I've noticed while running a grot star in an Imperial bunker. But first I would like to show the "grot star"

Imperial Bunker
Comms Relay
Escape Hatch

Succubus Archite Glaive

Haemonculus Armor Of misery Scissorhand

1 Abberation Scissorhand

5 Grots no upgrades

I am going to admit now, I haven't even used the escape hatch. I choose to make such a big deal about it at the beginning of the game so that my opponent thinks that it has to be dealt with. You can't charge out of the escape hatch, which is a detriment to 6+ 5+ grots, t5 yes but still they will die. You can still charge out of the bunker. In the past two games I was able to manipulate both opponents to Deepstrike their shooting units next to the bunker so that I could charge out of it. It took both of them by surprise, I had made such a big deal of how I get a free 18" move into the middle of the table that they didn't even realize that I wouldn't do it given the chance. One guy even knew you couldn't charge out of the escape hatch.

In the first game it was a typhus plague zombie and blight drone list with DSing oblits (Similar to yours Egorey). He was CSM and Daemons and had 2+ covers on everything. I was running RRD with 5 units of scourges 6 venoms with cannons and only 5 warriors and the grot squad as mentioned. He was like I'm going to take out that bunker, I was like Good luck its av 14 with 4 HP! Challenge accepted.... perfect. He landed next to it did a couple wounds and then I was able to sling my grots through combat for 4 turns with basically perfect assault moves where I get out on his turn and assault on mine. That 400 or so pt unit ran through his entire army. At the end he had 2.5 oblits left, this was an all Nurgle army mind you. I lost 18-19 though he was able to score each turn 3-4 times with Maelstrom and my draws were just garbage. I would say that I pulled every single card that I couldn't score and this was also Escalation. But my venoms were so well protected that in 3 turns I was able to score 18 points. I'm not worried about the lost it's a dice game after all. With better cards I would have walked all over him.

And the most recent game. I played against a Greyknight and Ultramarines player. He had Nemesis strike force with the bells and whistles and allied in a unit of Gravturians. We were playing the Objective capture mission with Maelstrom where you can steal other peoples Objectives. Despite his whole army DSing in for the most part I was confident that I would have the upper hand because of my speed. He also made me go first. So just as I suspected he dropped is Drop pod with meltas and his Paladin star with characters right next to the bunker. It was kind of interesting I was expecting the Knights to drop in and take care of it because of their flamers but he also didn't think I was going to assault his Paladinstar. I didn't want to charge his paladin star my intention was to run the grots through units that they could handle and to shoot the star. By this time I had spread out through the middle of the table. Since he made me go first instead of shooting at the cent star on the table I spread out in the corners so that if he decided to DS anything next to the venoms they would be way out of position. Like the good player he was though he sent the Knights out onto the edges expecting to use their teleporters to get back to the mid. At this point my bunker gets blowed up by the meltas and I am in a predicament. He shoots the grotstar and kills 1 and puts 1 more wound on another. This helped me a bit I was able to get rampage because I had 7 in the unit he had 8 in his Paladins. But I realized that If I charge the space marine squad I would wipe through them and then just get shot again So I charged his Paladin unit. I fully knew they were going to get destroyed. Luckily enough for me they hadn't gotten Force off on their first turn. I charged I killed a couple and then lost combat in 2 turns and the grot star was gone. However during these rounds of combat my small unit was able to hold up a large portion of his points that He was expecting to be able to use. He looked me in the face and asked me if I was sure that I wanted to charge the paladins. I said yes and he shrugged. It hadn't occurred to him that I needed that unit to not do anything. During those turns I was able to pretty much wipe everything else out and when combat was over I had warriors deposited on 4/6 objectives with Venoms running around the table. I ended up winning 20-13.

As long winded as that was, my TL;DR is all of these units are tools to be used against your opponent. Yes on paper something clearly is designed for a particular thing. But don't let that restrict your thoughts on other things you can use them for. There is much more to the game than dice rolling. Remember you are playing a human who can be legally manipulated when the rules can't.

Excellent write up Rumble. I never touched on the psychology of assault but of course that is very important as well. Like the list you describe the orkinstar has six ObSec units to grab objectives and a lot of destroyers to whittle down the big threats. I have found that no one really wants to assault my star - as you say they create a large footprint and major distraction to your opponent. Grots will die in the open but orkinstar can absorb and incredible amount of firepower and my list will take out threats that can really harm it. Like your list opponents know that obyron can DS the squad anywhere on the table. Of course as a competent player it is unlikely that you would. The risks far outweigh the benefits. It is there to push back and control mid table.

Close combat has really served me well.

Here are a few of the things I found true, personally speaking, about close combt and its virtue, in no particular order.

1. Wave Serpents. One cannot know for sure but it seems that there will still be a fair amount of them around and if they are anything like before, You simply must smash them with fists. EXHUSTING a thouand points worth of shooting is no way to kill one. You need to get on top of them fast and this gives them two option: Don't shoot and TRY to get away, or shoot once and die. Particularly true for my Dark Eldar. My Dark Eldar make it their mission to flood the enemy front lines turn one and then ALLOW the enemy to hip at the hard candy shells until they crack. Round two: ALL Wave Serpents or nearly all can be annihilated.

2. Leadership is the best stat to attack in 40K. Not a new statement by me but true. Any army that is not fearless can be brought to its knees if you can force enough rolls on them for LD. The strength of this attempt is that whereas a 120-200 rolls might be necessary when its all said and done to kill a unit outright, but it takes only one to destroy it if you attack leadrship. that makes Close Combat a very good way to win. It attacks this vital stat so that even if we only win by one..maybe two... We are more likely than not to break them, and whether you sweep them or not, their next round is gonna' suck.

3. Close Combt encourages speedy armies and with Maelstrom Missions, if you play to the mission, this advantage of speed really cannot BE overstated. And by selecting some close combat units, you lose othing by investing in their speed whereas obviouly you do if its a shooter unit. Therefore close combat plays to the strengths of Maelstrom Missions. Missions always matter.

4. Shooting units worth their salt can really be quite expensive. Competent close combat units tend to be in the middle, prize wise and can overwhelm such units very economically. Purely speaking from a points point of view, the Close combat armies (most of them) kind of get a discount because they get whittled so badly. However, that points break, however slight it might seem to some, can be an extra unit in the army overall to score with or some other useful addition. And that can allow you to rope-a-dope an opponent.

5. The element of surprise. The Close combat armies I play (Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Haemonculus Coven and Necrons atm) seem to catch opponents by surprise. The shooting they do have, while not really copious nor long range in practice since I tend to move more than shoot, is effective ENOUGH to set up the assaults and i think people come preparing for something different, which is not strictly speaking a tactical advantage but it can be a matchup advantage for sure.

6. Going second hurts you more with Assault armies... or does it? So long as you've selected units with great deployment options, you can really overcome that problem. Also when faced with an opposing close combat army, you know they will be coming, so you are definitely not disadvantaged then. So I think it can be argued that even going second isnt disability enough to cry about it too loudly.

Okay we all know about the covenate coterie:
4 Haemonculus w/WWP  (maybe a few relics)
!0 Wracks (this is pure tax but they can sit a backfield objective w/ an autarch)

Doesn't sound that fightening until we add this:

2x Dark Reapers w/exarch
2x Wraithgiard w/scythes
as many jetbikes as you can fit in the list
some seers if you have points

You know you DS without scatter right? This pretty much counters anything on the table. This includes both vehicles and infantry. You are weak against flyers ( although jetbikes can mess with a few) and a strong interceptor list MIGHT hurt you a bit. Otherwise the list is just nasty. No WK - no Hemlock - no Crimson Hunters ...  

Just a new twist. We had always though about doing this with WG but the lists looked a bit meh. Now we are playing a different game doing it.

Feel free to knock this about.

Yea man the Coven detachment with all of those HQs really adds some insane utility to lists that really need that precision. I've been mulling over a list similar to this in my mind but allied with DE. Obviously allying it with eldar is going to be a more competitive list in this meta at the moment but this being a DE forum I would prefer to make a DE centrist list. I'll get back to you on that idea, I find it funny that this showed up so soon to when I was seriously thinking about it.

I was trying to focus on the PFP stacking though.

So lets summarize with a few thoughts on Eldar and what we can expect and a few list ideas that are not OP.


With guardian host and aspect shrine:


Guardian Host
farseer singing spear
2 warlocks, singing spear
20 guardians 2x bright lance, warlock
2x 20 guardians, 2x eml, warlock
3 vypers eml
3 warwalkers 2x scatterlaser
vauls wrath support battery, 3x d-weapons, warlock

Aspect Shrine
3x 3 dark reapers, exarch eml

-The Guardian host lets your army run up to 6" with battle focus  
-Battle focus allows you to fire heavy weapons and then reposition
-Guardians have free platforms yes - free EMLs
-Vypers, Walkers, Vaul’s all gain preferred enemy when within 12" of Guardians
-EMLs come with built-in Skyfire mode at Str7. Or use a Str8 shot for ground targets or hit blobs with a Str4 blast.
-Scatterwalkers pump out 24 S6 shots a turn and are cheaper now by 30 pts.
-Reapers come with  twin-linking against zooming flyers, swooping FMC's or any unit that turbo-boosted or moved flat-out and denys jink saves, Exarch gets Fast Shot for free.
-Reapers, have +1 to BS and all re-roll moral, pinning and fear tests.
-D-cannon cauls support batteries now become the cheapest weapons platform in the game to carry a destroyer weapon. It fires barrage blastsalbeit at a limited range of 24".
-Guardians when they roll 6s to wound are AP2
-Easily can field  90 models on the table (not including platforms).

The Good:
You can pump  out a insane amounts of dakka a turn with enough at AP2. You have a cheap source of d-weapons. Battle focus makes the list really fast for a foot list. There are just good and ugly units in there with few drawbacks. Nine reapers and nine EMLs are near as good as Tau against flyers/FMCs.
The Bad:
You have no ObSec. The guardian host detachment is overall very strong with no bad units some very good units but nothing that cannot be dealt with. This can be an issue but it at least allows other lists to compete with this.

Bonus list guys:

So this list is all about Eldar and what they will be doing at a tournament near you taking into account no LoWs are using only two detachments

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12032p60-eldar-coming#135950



Now real quick ... bear this in mind:

--

Eldar's achilles heal will be attacking LD - you have no better options. Any list that makes ther jetbikes hug the table edge has a decent chance of running bikes of the edge. We are talking about a 3D6 fall back move. If you clog the center of the table with strong cc units - denying the bikes their 36" turbo boost without fear of retaliation, you can beat these guys. Daemons are a hard counter to bikes - screamers, deamonettes, grinders, etc. Psychic shriek is golden. DE also has the means to assault and to attack LD.

--

Eldar's flyers are difficult to ignore. Those crimson hunters cannot be easily denied line of sight by messing with their flight paths. You cannot ignore FMCs at all. You NEED anti air. Nid players will show up with 4+ nasty flyers. EldAir is alive and well. SM use Strom Talons, Thunderhawks, Fire Raptoers. Daemons fly. Flying is just an entrenched thing in the game. Try to bring anti air that can also target ground units. I've lost to flyers a number of times trying to ignore them. bottom line.

--

Durable units will help against Eldar ( grots, talos, etc.) Bring some.

--

Have we mentioned this before ... assault. Anything that can force jetbikes to reposition into assault range will eat those bikes up. But jetbikes are so mobile you say. Hello maelstorm. Do you want to turbo-boost onto objectives when it means I'll assault and kill you next turn? There is a reson that assault armies are doing well in 7ed.

All is not lost but it a difficult match up for DE now. This concludes my thoughts on Eldar. I've mentioned the unthinkable lists ( WKs and jetbikes only w/ crimson hunter back up). I've illustrated some different approaches - footdar and bikes without LoWs. I've mentioned what we need to do and what we need to watch for. It's time to move on.

edited to reflect the changes I needed to make

Destroy the Eldars confidence and they will shrivel up and run. Dark Eldar! To me!

Hear hear!

A new codex awakens a sleeping fiend.

Ok, so I've been kicking around the idea of making a deathstar based around Gate of Infinity and Baharroth. Essentially, it would allow Baharroth to use his special blind attack and grenade pack every turn by Gating around the table. Further, because Gate of Infinity wouldn't scatter due to his "Herald of Victory" special rule, it would perfectly position the unit for witchfires, novas, singing spear strikes, etc.

The unit composition that I'm thinking about using looks like this:

Baharroth
Seer Council, Containing:
Eldrad
Farseer w/Singing Spear & Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan
5-7 Warlocks w/Singing Spears
-End of Seer Council-
2nd Farseer

I'd be rolling on the Sanctic table with Eldrad, hoping for Gate, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Cleansing blast or whatever it's called(The nova power).
Warlocks roll on runes of battle for the tactical flexibility of those powers, so long as Eldrad gets Gate. Otherwise, they can roll on Sanctic.
Unless I've had terrible luck(ie, no Gate yet), I will be rolling on Runes of Fate with the Farseer for Fortune and Eldritch Storm. If I get what I want with the first 2 rolls(it happens!), will pick up psychic shriek from telepathy.
Final farseer is used to get more witchfires, or fill in the blanks if I miss anything the unit needs. Pure redundency.

Ultimately, if everything falls together correctly, the deathstar should have the following:

Fearless
Fleet
Hit & Run
Herald of Victory(Doesn't Scatter)
Battle Focus
Succeeds in psychic rolls on a 3+ instead of 4+
13 Psychic Powers
2++/3++ Rerollable saves
S5/S6 Fleshbane/AP3 CC weapons
Blind enemies within 6" on arrival by Gate.
Throw Grenade pack on arrival by Gate.
Several possible Nova/Witchfire attacks(Destructor, Psychic Shriek, Cleansing Blast, Eldritch Storm)
8 S9 Ranged fleshbane attacks(singing spears)

If they're assaulted by a big bad that they'd have trouble killing in CC, they can just decline challenges, maybe take a loss of a warlock, and use hit & run to leave the combate and shoot the crap out of them or gate away to shoot something else. They're not terrible in melee, but that's not where they shine, either. This unit is best -just- outside of melee. Most times, I'd say units close enough to charge them will either be blinded, or too wounded from shots to be much of a threat.

An example army list to include this star would look something like this(And notably doesn't use any D-weapons, or other things being touted as broken in the new Eldar Codex):

A Single Craftworld Warhost Detachment Consisting of:

1 Guardian BattleHost:
1 Farseer
3x10 Guardian Defenders w/EML
1 War Walker w/ Dual Shuriken Cannons
1 Vyper w/Dual Shuriken Cannons
1x3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries(Vibro Cannons)

Guardian Stormhost:
1 Farseer
3x8 Storm Guardians w/2 power swords, a fusion gun, and a flamer.
1 War Walker w/ Dual Shuriken Cannons
1 Vyper w/Dual Shuriken Cannons
1x3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries(Vibro Cannons)

Seer Council:
Eldrad
Farseer w/ Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan
7 Warlocks w/Singing spears

Living Legends:
Baharroth

Total Points: 1846

The 1 Farseer that isn't a part of the deathstar takes the guaranteed powers of Guide and Prescience, and hides in one of the units of Vibro cannons. His only job is to Twin-Link both units of vibro-cannons all game, making them 48" of the most reliable anti-tank in the game. While twin-linked, They hit with all 3 shots roughly 90% of the time, making them S9 AP2. As part of the formation, when their target is within 12 inches of a guardian squad in their detachment, they can reroll wounds/penetration rolls of 1. For when they run out of vehicle targets, or if they're in a pinch, they also have pinning.

The guardian defenders will basically sit back and protect backfield objectives while using their EML on targets within 48 inches. They're the primary anti-air of the army, but if any big bads come to threaten CC against the artillery, defenders will be thrown in their path or charge them to stop any potential assaults. Basically sacrificed to ensure the twin-linked artillery keep on firing.

The Storm Guardians will immediately begin to push upfield, moving 12 inches per turn guaranteed by the formation bonus. They're set up to be flexible and fill in gaps. Fire a fusion shot here, a flamer there, charge a non-CC oriented unit, draw fire away from the deathstar, etc. Basically, put pressure on the opponent to make choices. Shoot at the cheap troops he knows he can hurt, or dump fire into the much more dangerous, but much more difficult to kill deathstar.

The War Walkers and vypers are primarily there for anti-infantry duty, but can threaten light vehicles as well, so the EMLs, Singing Spears, Fusion Guns, and Vibro Cannons can focus on the heavier stuff and fliers.

Thoughts?

Second Example List, going with hybrid DE and CWE:

DE RealSpace Raiders Detachment:

1 Archon w/The Parasite's Kiss
2x5 Kabalite Warriors w/1 Dual Cannon Venom & 1 Raider
6 Dual Cannon Venoms

2 Aspect Hosts(+1 BS)
6x3 Fire Dragons w/Exarch(Dragon's Breath Flamer)

1 Dire Avenger Shrine (+1 BS)
3x5 Dire Avengers
2 BS5 Wave Serpents w/Twin Linked EML and Shuriken Cannon

Total: 1850

That's 6 Dual Cannon Venoms that each have 4 BS5 fusion guns and a dragon breath flamer on board. 1 Venom with Warriors, and 1 Raider Carrying the Archon and Kabbies. All the venoms would flat out across the table turn 1 to get the fire dragons within pain , staying out of LoS where possible.

The footslogging dire avengers can hold down an objective in your own deployment zone, while the other 2 can be transported forward by the BS5 Wave serpents. The serpents themselves act as anti-air with their BS5 twin-linked EMLs, and within 24 inches have some heavy burst potential, firing their shield (2d6 S6 shots), the shuriken cannon, and the EML from a standstill, hitting on 2's.

Once the fire dragons have done their job, the army has plenty of ways to deal with infantry: Whatever venoms remain, dragon's breath flamers, shuriken cannons, and the dire avenger shrine gets a special hurrah! attack that lets their weapons become assault 3 for 1 round, so that's helpful once the enemy is footslogging. It's like a beta strike.

So first off this is the old seer council without Baron for h+r, replaced by Baharoth. Instead of bikes you are going to rely on gate. You opt for fortune/invisibility as the go to powers. Nothing new here. Problem is only that the old seer council was much more mobile - jetbikes can reposition very well. So it can work yes.

I don't dislike your second list but I do prefer the first. Without the added character - which was why we used DE - pure Eldar works just fine. And with some tinkering you can in fact add a warlock or two to either guardian or vaul's squads. The list is quite nasty and again, footdar can do some damage. Now TBH, I am not sure Baharoth is needed. Blind is not a given and I think there are better options (see my last comments). Of course if you assault the h+r is very nice.

I've been building lists though that have only one CAD and one formation or just two CADs as I know some venues only allow that. I'm not sure if they would allow an extra living legend too but for sure they would allow a fortification.

I notice you only have three EMLs for AA in list one and five in list two. My footdar has eight EMLs and a unit of Hawks. I am still worried a bit. I also added BLs to my list for a bit of ranged S9 but vibros should be enough.

Overall it is a nasty little concept Betray. I would not like facing it. You mentioned not wanting to be in cc. Seer councils excel at cc with the right powers up. With gate and battle focus you can position for charges with ease. I would not avoid cc with that group you could get a cc beast character instead of Baharoth - he has h+r but he is rather weak in assault.

Now you will probably lose to a heavy FMC Nid list with SotW. You will also struggle against some daemon lists. Freakshow can also hurt you. Other than that you are pretty good. I know my footdar list will have identical bad match ups. Eldar show a lot of promise no doubt. But they are beatable. Spamming bikes would not help you either - they will run when your LD is attacked.

Since I believe flyers and FMCs will be in many a list now I want to try designing counters. I was actually thinking that to combat flyers and FMCs the following list is the perfect foil.

TWO IDENTICAL GUARDIAN BATTLEHOSTS

Farseer
3x 10x Guardian Defenders eldar missile launcher
3x Vypers w/ eldar missile launcher
3x War Walker w/ 2x eldar missile launcher
Vaul's Support Battery w/ 3x vibro-cannon

So that is 24 EML shots a turn and 6 twin-linked ( two farseers) vibro-cannon shots a turn. It will do some damage. It can outflank those WWs if needed. The EML is very useful now.

The more I see of Eldar  - and now some batreps are in too - only WKs are truly OP. Anything else can be dealt with - albeit they will be good hard fights.

Baharroth isn't bad in CC with that unit. As long as they get the right powers, (which they should, most of the time), he would be WS7, S6, T4, W3, I7 with 5 attacks on the charge, using an AP3 sword with the blind special rule. Eternal warrior and a 2+ rerollable armor save make him pretty good against all but AP2 CC weapons.

I wasn't saying the unit was BAD in CC. Just that they can do a pretty healthy amount of damage outside of CC, and that CC isn't entirely necessary for them to do their job.

Basically, I gate in, within 6 inches of 2 units, not scattering. I cause a blind test on both units within 6". I drop a S4 AP4 ignores cover grenade pack on a unit within 24" for free. I cast the 4 warp charge version of Eldritch storm, getting probably 10 hits of S3 AP3 fleshbane, haywire, pinning. I cast the cleansing flame nova power, doing an average of 7 hits to all units within 9 inches, so in this case, 14 S5 AP4 ignores cover, soul blaze hits. Any unit that is going to have to take the blind test at the end of the phase will be a target for drain, lowering their init, and making them more likely to fail their blind test. Similarly, anyone at this point that is already going to have to take a leadership test(such as a pinning test) at the end of the round will be a target for horrify. After horrify, firing off Psychic Shriek for an average of 4-5 dead models. Also, will fire off any destructor result that the warlocks may have got(S5, AP4, Ignores cover, Soul Blaze, heavy flamer). THEN, they will be able to fire off their S9 fleshbane singing spear shots and pistols.

But sure, if there's stuff left around after that, they can absolutely deal in CC. The problem is, they can't charge after gating in, so it's up to your opponent to charge you, which they won't do with anything NOT badass. And you don't want to be stuck in CC on your own turn, keeping you from performing all the above dakka, which is where the H&R comes in handy.

EDIT: Keep in mind, with the 3+ psychic successes the seer council gets, and the ability of EACH farseer and eldrad to use stones of the farseer EVERY round to reroll critical powers, they will be MUCH more reliable in getting powers off with far fewer dice than before, which equates to being able to use more psychic powers every turn.

So I edited my original footdar list to get a game in against quad flyrant Nids. It is at the top of the page. I managed to kill two flyrants, all his mucoloids, his malanthrope and venomthropes and some rippers. He targeted my eml squads early and persistently and used psychic powers extensively. I still managed to ejke out a 12-10 win. I was a bit lucky I admit as I managed to ground two tyrants which hurt him. Also his list was strong but I'm not sure top tournament level. Just very competitive.

Observations -

-Wraths Support batteries are stupid good against any and all ground targets.
-Scatterlaser Walkers are bloody dangerous and should be dealt with  - never ignored. They will wound FMCs too.
-Aspect shrine is silly. The rules mean you always get a lot of hits against targets you want to hurt. Is the buff of h+1 BS and re rolls on morale even legit?
-Attacking LD is smart. I lost a squad as a result. SotW plus psychic powers hurts. A lot.
-I near lost the game because of no ObSec. Only the fact that I could entirely control the mid table enabled me to pull out a win.

Note that I did not spam d-weapons. I did not use the broken Crimson Death formation. I had NO WK. Despite this I managed to pull out a win.  

Conclusions -

I don't think Eldar are broken. I do think the meta will have to adapt a bit to playing them. The real strength of Eldar is that they can play in a number of different ways. You can spam bikes and use Crimson Death and add lots of d-weapons. You shove a gargantuan creature up your opponents' rears. Or ypu can use aspect shrine to really get some very nifty buffs and benefits. Sp preparing for them is going to be tricky.

Going to a tournament in on the first weekend in
July in Vancouver BC Canada. The Wet Coast GT
http://www.wetcoastgt.com/content/warhammer-40000-rules-2015. Look Here for detachment rules. Closely fallows last years ITC rules.

This is a very similar to the list that I won Gottacon (~48 players) with a few months ago except without a wraithknight. I have 256points left to spend and am trying to figure out which are my best options. I will discuss a few of my ideas after.

C&C always welcome.

Thinking of something along these lines.
Dark eldar Real spaces raiders detachment (only one CAD allowed so that is eldars).

Archon w/ blaster and WWP

2x5 Kbalites Warriors in duel cannon Venoms.

2 Razorwing jet fighters w/lances.

Raider with NS. (Fire dragons usually in here)

ELDAR CAD
Autarch with fusion gun.

2x3 Wind Rider Jetbikes.

10 Guardians Defenders.
Wave serpent w/scatter and cannon.

6 fire dragons including exarch
Wave serpent (same as above, usually runs empty).

2x1 hornets w/ 2 pulse lasers


So this army is 1494 points so far. Meaning that I have 256 points left to spend.

I tend to run a large part of my army in some kind of reserve. The min I reserve is the 2 individual hornets, the 2 flyers and wwp archon with fire dragons. I often reserve more depending on the situation.

I am trying to figure out what to do with the left over points that I am.
I was thinking of 2 Talos holding the fort, but they don't support the army very well since the army is so fast.
I thought maybe D-scyth guard, but don't think I really need D in this list.

So I started thinking about aspect warriors.
I am thinking a unit of 8 shining spears including a star lance exarch might be a good idea. I would also put the autarch on a bike and add on a banshee mask and lance. This gives me a good mid field unit that can kill tanks and give me some pretty good assault on a fast platform.

I was also debating on taking a farseer on bike with stones to join the shining spears. But for that I need to find more points from somewhere. I am debating on dropping the fire dragon wave serpent to get the points for the seer. But is it worth dropping a wave serpents durability and fire power for a seer?... What do you think?

The other option I am thinking about is a unit of 6 swooping hawks with exarch and a unit of 5-6 warp spiders. This gives me some ignore cover from the hawks and precision objective grabbing and some haywire for flyers. Spiders are fast and annoying as always.


Any ideas guy?

Had this posted in the dark eldar army list section, but since I got no bites I thought I would try this page since it is more eldar orientated.

I don't think you are taking full advantage of the new rules TBH. Your DE faction looks fine. I don't know why you prefer razprwings over crimson hunters though. I would drop a razorwing for one. Also wave serpent is not needed on the FD - they should be in a raider with sails and NS. Your jetbikes should all have scats - bikes are no longer just required troops. Amnd squads a little larger would be nice.

As for which aspects to use. All of them got better. I believe the strongest are warp spiders, fire dragons and certainly dark reapers. Swooping hawks look good too but actually finding an opponent that will let you get clean haywire off by positioning so close to them is iffy. By dropping the wave serpents you could add an aspect shrine, BTW, really giving nice buffs. Now just a note on warp spiders - when you target them, they can make a special 2D6" jump move in the enemy Shooting phase with their flicker jump special rule. And if their move should take them out of LOS or range, then your opponentt wasted his shooting. On top of that, the warp spider exarch allows the unit to automatically pass all Pinning, Fear, Regroup and Morale tests. Fire dragons got +1 on the vehicle damage table and the exarch can re-roll one To Hit, To Wound or Armor Penetration roll per turn. Nothing is better against ground armour.

Autarch in a squad should have a banshee mask unless you are going to try and hide him away all game. As to whether or not to give him a bike depends on where you want to put him. Personally i would not be looking at eldar - I would put him with reavers. Banshee Autarch with reavers is a strong combo.

Obviously you know what you are doing - you won your last event. You have an Archon with a WWP. Certainly seems tempting to drop him in with d-scythe WG. But you could drop him with almost any aspect squad - including the FD which already are in your list.

Anyway these are just random thoughts when glancing at your list. Note that i mentioned I feel that Eldar now have too many viable options. I don't think you lose much if anything no matter what you decide on. Your core is well balanced - AA, AI, AT check. Reserve manipulation, check. So depending on wjhat you have seen in your area bolster the list with the aspect that fits the bill.

BTW, a unit I now want to check out is Karandras and Striking Scorpians. Better in this edition, and 30-pts cheaper. When he comes in from reserves, he can come in from any table edge with his unit of striking scorpions that he is attached to. HE also causes a wound to a model engaged with him on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed (4+ if a Gargantuan Creature) and also provides shrouded to a unit that infiltrates with him. He is a lot of added punch. The scorpian exarch has 2W instead of 1W now and he gets the equivalent of monster hunter AND tank hunter. As for the unit, now they get an automatic 4+ cover as long as they have moved in the previous movement phase. So you can detach Karandras afyter the outflank and go after separate targets too.

Whether or not you can get the points to field that unit is another matter. If you could jiggle it, it would definitely be nice.