A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Thanks for the advice egorey.

I'll just explain some of the reasons why I am taking what I am taking. I would love an aspect shrine, but the event only allows your army to come from two different sources. I have dark eldar RSR and eldar CAD.  The DE would also be a CAD if more than one is allowed.  In the new ITC format (this event isn't using the new one) you are allowed three sources. When I play with the new format you can bet your ass I will have the aspect shrine. :-)
As for the razorwings. I chose two because I have always has crazy good success with them. They are mostly for clearing blobs of infantry/ deleting entire tac squads in one volly of missiles. Which means I am not relying on multiple units to try and get the same job done. I thought about having a crimson hunter as they give great AA and good AT, but I never seem to need it. Even against fmc/flyer lists.  I will however still consider one as I have the model and will try some test games with it.  
As for scatter bikes. I like them a lot and want to use them. But opted not too for a few reasons. One is that I don't know if I will have the time to make/paint scatter bikes (I am a very meticulous painter). Other reasons are I like my troops cheap and non threatening even though scatter bikes are a great deal (will still consider it). The other is that people in my meta bitch a moan about everything and I don't feel like dealing with that. They think imperial knights are op etc... And I like my games more challenging as I also like to rely on mad skills.   If you read the rest of what I wrote you will see a little bit of my game plan.
As for the serpents. I have two because I want something durable to start on the table as a large chunk of my army starts in reserve. They will tend to hang back a bit and out of harms way until my army arrives from reserve turn two where I can hit my opponent where I want.  
The fire dragons do have a wave serpent, but they do not deploy in it like mentioned in my list entry. They wwp drops with the archon in the raider with night shields :-).  Been doing that for awhile and I love it.

As for the options that I have available for aspects. I love reapers and may take a unit of them in a serpent instead of the serpent being there for the dragons. They have really good rules. Anything that can kill a bike unit or skimmer with almost no issues is great in my books. The only kind of issue I have with them is that they are a static unit, and I play off of being very mobile. But they just might be worth it.  Warp spiders will almost certainly be in my army if I don't take reavers or spears for the autarch. If I do mount the autarch he will for sure have the banshee mask. But that means that he will ve with reavers/spears so I prob won't have room for spiders and either reapers or hawks... If the autarch isn't mounted then he may deep strike with the dragons or hangout with the guardians. Might give him wings if I feel like it?
As for swooping hawks. I played them last book and loved them back then. Had nothing but success with them. But now they are cheaper. They drop ignore cover lrg blasts like before. Have precision ds. Move 18" (makes it easy to assault with haywire if needed and can haywire flyers if given half a chance.

Oh forgot about reaver Jetbikes as an option other that just spears. So thanks for the reminder! I might still take spears as I like the charge bonus (especially tge star lance exarch) and they are always ap3 now which is nice. That and a 3+ save so they don't have to rely on jink (ignore cover weapons are annoying), and they have outfkank which can be very nice. But reavers are a little cheaper and d3 hammer of wrath and some caltrops are always nice.

A part if me really want to take a d-scythe unit, but I will avoid D until all the bitching calms down as it drives me nuts.

I think what I am having a hard time with is deciding what to do with the extra points. Do I take reavers or spears and mount the autarch as I think having a mobile combat presence is important. Even just a little bit goes a long ways into keeping zones free. Combat clears units quicker than shooting. OOOooorrr do I say F@#& counter assault and take warp spiders and either hawks or a small dark reaper unit?  So many decisions.
I like having lots of decisions to make. Lets you know that there is a good variety out there

Thanks for the comments
Much appreciated


Edit. One option I could consider with the left over 256 points is to take a crimson hunter and a unit of warp spiders. ???

egorey wrote:

-Aspect shrine is silly. The rules mean you always get a lot of hits against targets you want to hurt. Is the buff of h+1 BS and re rolls on morale even legit?

Yep. Re-roll failed Morale, Pinning and Fear Tests plus every unit gets either +1BS or +1WS, including dedicated transports (Hello BS5 Wave Serpents!).

Holy crap Count. Totally didn't think that the serpents would get +1bs.
Thanks for sharing

egorey wrote:

BTW, a unit I now want to check out is Karandras and Striking Scorpians. Better in this edition, and  30-pts cheaper. When he comes in from reserves, he can come in from any table edge with his unit of striking scorpions that he is attached to. HE also causes a wound to a model engaged with him on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed (4+ if a Gargantuan Creature) and also provides shrouded to a unit that infiltrates with him. He is a lot of added punch. The scorpian exarch has 2W instead of 1W now and he gets the equivalent of monster hunter AND tank hunter. As for the unit, now they get an automatic 4+ cover as long as they have moved in the previous movement phase. So you can detach Karandras afyter the outflank and go after separate targets too.

Where are you getting the bolded part from? I've just went through the entries for both Karandras and the Striking scorpions again, and I don't see it.

Anyhow, I agree, Karandras has some tactical appeal. Guaranteed arrival on turn 2 from reserves, and the ability to move on from any table edge, including your opponent's is nice. Of couse, in doing so, they give up being shrouded, so they will only have stealth, and can't charge until turn 3 if they arrive that way.

It does, however, open up even more null deployment options for DE. If you take a Scalpel Squadron + Karandras and go second, you can start without a single model on the table, and guarantee that you won't lose before round 3, by which time you may very well have your DE army on the table, and 3 turns of power from pain under your belt.

colinsherlow wrote:

I would love an aspect shrine, but the event only allows your army to come from two different sources. I have dark eldar RSR and eldar CAD.  The DE would also be a CAD if more than one is allowed.  In the new ITC format (this event isn't using the new one) you are allowed three sources.

With the new decurion style detachment counting as a single detachment, it would probably make your life easier if you made the DE detachment CAD, and took the Craftworld Warhost for your Eldar.

It's hard to tell, based on the tournament rules, whether or not they'll allow hornets, as they come from a book that hasn't been updated for 7th edition yet, and the experimental rules update on hornets would have them costing 135 points with dual pulse lasers instead of 80. The rules for the tournament specifically forbid forge world army list entries from books that haven't recieved a 7th edition update, which at this point is only the imperial armor 13 book, per their rules. If they're allowing models from other books, they should be a bit more clear on that.

If they won't allow hornets, my suggestion above is certainly the better way to go. If they WILL allow the 80 point dual-pulse laser hornets, you'd have to make eldar CAD since they wouldn't be legal any other way. If that's the case, I suggest getting more of them with your spare points. Having never played with them or against them, I did research on them, and they're either way underpriced or overpowered using the rules from the most recent IA: Apoc book.

Where's the experimental rules for Hornets? Most recent version seems to be IA Apoc 2013, which is a 6e book and I don't see anything beyond that for Hornets.

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the shooting or assault phase.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better than his opponent.

That is the correct rule.

Hornets are really good from the apoc books. Which is what I am using. The hornets base cost is ok, but the pulse laser upgrade is way to cheap. Should prob be 15-20 points to upgrade each cannon to a pulse laser. So a cost of 100-110 would seem more fair for a hornet.

Hornets have been amazing for me so far. Absolutely love them.

egorey wrote:

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the shooting or assault phase.

They have shrouded until they shoot or assault, ONLY if they infiltrate. If they come in from reserves on round 2 using Karandras special rule, they're not infiltrating. Thus, they wouldn't have shrouded at all.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Where's the experimental rules for Hornets? Most recent version seems to be IA Apoc 2013, which is a 6e book and I don't see anything beyond that for Hornets.

The experimental rules are posted on the forgeworld website: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/h/hornetexp.pdf

But the rules of the tournament he linked to MAY disallow all forgeworld models that haven't had a 7th edition update(FAQ would count). The wording is ambiguous.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The experimental rules are posted on the forgeworld website: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/h/hornetexp.pdf

But the rules of the tournament he linked to MAY disallow all forgeworld models that haven't had a 7th edition update(FAQ would count). The wording is ambiguous.

Those experimental rules seem to be way out of date and I can't even see them on the current FW website. The experimental rules don't feature Hull Points and there have been two non-experimental versions of the rules published. These look like a precursor to the ones that originally appeared in IA 11 and I'd say the IA Apoc 2013 rules are certainly more recent.

Doesn't really help if the TO doesn't accept anything without a 7e update though, as only 1 book so far has had such an update AFAIK.

It disallows armies that haven't been updated to 7th ed. But 40k FW approved is allowed

The current outdated hornet rules really are good. 80 points for an AV11 platform that fires 4 S8 AP2 shots a round is about the best deal I know of right now.

If I thought they'd be allowed for awhile with those rules, I'd buy some. But being from a 2013 book that hasn't had an update to the new edition makes me leary. It'd be my luck that I'd buy them and they'd get a rules update before I even had them painted.

Also, tournaments have a tendency around here to alter their house rules to make me personally less likely to win. Most of the time when I attend a tournament and win it, there is a new house rule regarding something I did in the following tournament. I currently don't use any forge world, and other people do. Those other people don't win a ton. If I started using forgeworld stuff and winning with them, I suspect I'd start to see more local games banning FW outright.

Tournaments don't tend to restrict what FW you can use except for that you use the most current set of rules for it. I haven't really seen any tournaments ban one thing because it is good.

I would never attend a tournament that starts banning stuff because someone has won an event with said units/armies. That seems very strange.

What kind of tournaments do you play in? That just sounds really weird. I can kind of maybe kind of see that happening if there are very few players in your meta and they want to play on even ground. But that would still be weird to restrict one person or unit because they are good.
Might as well just ban everything that is good. No centuriand, drop pods, thunder fires, any shooting wraith guard, fmcs, lots of special characters etc...

Come play in my area ;-)
P
Lots of people whine about everything, but you still play what you like

colinsherlow wrote:

I haven't really seen any tournaments ban one thing because it is good.

That's why every tournament anywhere bans things. You think ranged D-weapons are being banned for any other reason? They're being banned because someone thinks they're overpowered/Too Good. In some rare cases, things may be banned because they aren't widely available or something, but it's mostly just things deemed "too good" by someone.

Many local metas just don't allow FW at all. And that's what I was saying they may very well do. There are only a few players here that use FW anyhow, and they don't win much. If one of the top local players started playing FW models, and they were viewed in any way as being OP, there is a real possibility of FW being more limited thereafter.

colinsherlow wrote:

I would never attend a tournament that starts banning stuff because someone has won an event with said units/armies.  That seems very strange.

What kind of tournaments do you play in?  That just sounds really weird. I can kind of maybe kind of see that happening if there are very few players in your meta and they want to play on even ground.

You misunderstand me. As an example, the last event I attended I had a fellow attendee approach me after the event and say, "You know, I have never seen you show up at a tournament and not win." He wasn't really saying so in a happy tone. He was visibly frustrated that in a local meta of roughly 75 players, I continuously placed 1st in almost every tournament I participated in.

That attendee was someone who acted as a TO at a different local game store. He did alter rules in his tournament based on things he saw me do in a preceeding tournament. It's not the first time he's done it, and he's not the only TO to have done so. When enough people complain that certain rules are OP, or that army X is unbeatable because whatever, TOs take notice and make house rules to make sure they get good attendence to their events.

It doesn't help matters that, of the 75 or so players in the local meta, many of them are broken up into cliques of people who have been friends since childhood, none of which I belong to. So, you have this outsider. This person who no one really knows, showing up at all your local tournaments and winning the goodies instead of you or your friends. Well, you or your friend is also the tournament organizer(TO), so rules get altered. It's petty, I agree. But it happens here all the time. Oh, how this happened. When I got interested in the hobby, I had a single friend who got me into it. I talked to him about it a lot, I bought models and painted them with him, and played a few games. Then, he got a promotion and moved, so wasn't around any more to try to arrange games with. That's how I ended up being a stranger in everyone else's established groups of friends, playing in tourny's. The entire thing probably would be less jarring had I entered onto the scene with 1 or 2 friends of my own.

It's actually really depressing that I live in the 15th largest city in the United States, and the combined 40k community of all the FLGSs is like 75 people, as far as I can tell. With such a small community, it doesn't take long to develop a reputation. I don't get turned away from any games, but the opposite of what I'd expect to happen occurs. I'd expect people to WANT to play me more and engage me in discussions regarding 40k, hoping they could improve upon their own game. I know that's what I do when I find someone good at something I'd like to be good at. But instead, it seems like a social conspiracy to try to outmaneuver me politically into losing. It keeps failing, and I keep winning tournaments because I adapt to whatever rules changes they make, and I typically don't play the same list twice in tournaments.

So, perhaps I'm doing something wrong socially. Any of you social geniuses want to chime in and help a guy out? I know Unorthodoxy prides himself on doing well with the social contract side of the game. I litterally couldn't be a more polite guy. I already am so nice as to border on obsequiousness. It is not at all uncommon for me to offer to buy my opponent in a tournament lunch, or to donate my tournament winnings to purchasing something for the hosting store, to be used by everyone. Still, I get kind of a cold shoulder a lot. The only thing I can come up with is that I win too often. But I feel like if I gave up on trying to win, I wouldn't enjoy the hobby any more. I don't mind losing, but if I lose, I want it to be because I got beat, not because I wasn't trying. That said, if I am going to be isolated for excelling, it causes me not to enjoy the hobby either.

I may have to leave the local arena and start playing at much larger, national-type events to maintain my interest in the hobby, unless I can figure out what's causing the animosity towards me locally.

betray - yes indeed I got the scorpian rules confused. Too many new aspect rules, lol. I have not played with them yet so ... still I want to test out baharoth but not in the seer council. On another note I think it absurd that a TO would change the rules just to challenge you. WTF? If you want to ban certain units because you feel they lead to unbalanced games that's okay. I've seen LoWs and d weapons and forgeworld  disallowed but to try and penalize just one player?

That said I'm playing again this week - it will be my last test game with Eldar for awhile as I want to get back to my Tau. I am starting to feel dirty playing Eldar even without d-weapons. If I decided to attend a tournament this is a list I would consider.


PRIMARY CAD: 1401
Autarch: skyrunner, fusion, lance, banshee mask
Farseer, skyrunner, singing spear  

2x 3 Jet bikes: shuriken cannons
4x 3 Jet bikes: scatterlasers

2 Vypers: dual shuriken cannon
3 Vypers: eml

2x 3 Warwalkers: dual scatterlasers

CRIMSON DEATH: 440
Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons
2 Crimson Hunter: bright lances

Do note that this is a very efficient list putting out a lot of firepower. It has 24 scatterlasers, 10 shrunken cannons,  4  bright lances, 3 pulse lasers, 3 eml, 2 star cannons, a fusion gun, and a singing spear. . That is a fair amount of dakka a turn. If you are keeping track that is 140 shots a turn on mobile platforms. This is at least matching skitarii and tau and will often be out shooting them.  

Some units tend to be overlooked … vipers. Vypers have gone down ten points so for 100 points you get 4 HP and 12 S6 shots that are AP2 on 6s. The eml vypers are great AA back up. These boys need to be used.

Scatbikes we know are the most pint efficient shooting unit in 40k now  - 6.75 pts per shot which is even better than broadsides with HYMPs. That is a pretty meaningful statistic. The whole eldar codex is now much more points efficient in terms of shots per point. And those shots are all S6 or better.

Crimson Hunters will handle all the AA and skimmer duty. Three of these guys pretty much ensure that you will take out some flyers and FMCs. If there are none they will go after ground targets. They are now cheaper than ever and possibly the best AA in 40k when taken as part of the crimson death formation.

The war walkers will do what they always do - outflank if needed or start on the table with 24 S6 shots a turn. This is a squadron that cannot be ignored. They will take out ground targets and even FMCs need to be aware of them.

What stands out about Eldar is that they are highly mobile with plenty of reserve shenanigans. In maelstrom missions these guys are going to be tough indeed to handle. Now this list does not use a seer council. It has no Wks. It has no d-weapons at all.

I had wanted to play with some hemlocks but I coulkd not get ahold of any. So instead I'm just going to use more warwalkers and vypers.

UPDATE

Beaten by a mawloc/lictor/flyrant list in a close game. So with what seems a tailorted list I lost and I had previously beat Nids with footdar ... go figure. Nid list was this:

Leviathan:
3x Flyrant (Dual TL Devourer, Wings, Egrubs)
3x Mucolid
2x Lictor  
Malanthrope
2x Mawloc
CAD:
Flyrant (Dual TL Devourer, Wings, Egrubs. Fighter Ace)
3x Lictor
2x Mucolid
2x 5 Spore Mines
Bastion (Comms Relay)

I could not kill his warlord, his psychic powers and devourers sent my bikes off the board or killed them, I lost two crimson hunters. I killed two flyrants and put a third down to one wound. I managed to kill his mawlocs. His lictors gave me fits. They can attack with their flesh hooks and reposition so well with their movement so the spores and mawlocs do damage. Malanthrope in a bastion is not fair ... like the eldar list was! The best units I had were the scatwalkers and eml vypers TBH. The bikes do little against Nids except garner some early maelstorm points. ObSec is nice but the troops have to survive too. I did not lose by much but i did lose.

egorey wrote:

On another note I think it absurd that a TO would change the rules just to challenge you. WTF? If you want to ban certain units because you feel they lead to unbalanced games that's okay.

Their counterpoint would surely be that they do feel the rules they're changing caused an unbalanced game. They'd say I used said unbalanced rules to win a previous tournament, and that's what brought the imbalance to their attention. And that could legitimately be true. They could totally believe all of that. It doesn't change the fact that it's always the rules that are relevent to my armies that get nerfed/house ruled.

Example. And yeah, this plan was a little dirty. I told you about it when I came up with it, I think. A tournament designed around ONLY the relic mission with dawn of war. Every match was dawn of war + relic. We all knew that prior to the tournament. I used an aquilla strongpoint macro cannon with an escape hatch that I placed as near the objective as possible. The strongpoint also had a void shield and the 4 heavy bolter emplacements. I used a unit of d-scythe wraithguard with eldrad and lelith hesperax to claim the relic on the first turn, then on the second turn, I embarked back into the building with the relic, through the escape hatch. I rinsed and repeated my way into winning the tournament. No one could tie me down in melee because of my model placement, and an invisible T6 unit with 3+ armor saves and 3++ invulns is difficult to shoot of the table in a single turn. Also, I had ranged D shots from the macro-cannons target things that were a threat. After winning the first round, there was a rules debate regarding whether all the rules worked that way, and the TO ended up ruling in my favor. 2 people dropped out of the tournament at that point in protest. My final opponent conceded, refusing to play against it in an attempt to keep me from winning by denying me the ability to score any points in the game. They first were acting like I was going to get zero points for the round, but I pointed out that the TO had earlier awarded someone else a "bye" due to their opponent dropping out of the tournament, and that he gave them half of the potential points for that round. The TO hesitently awarded me half of the possible points for the game, which was significantly lower than I was averaging. So it did lower my points average, but I still had enough points to tie for first place.

So anyhow, they thereafter made several new house rules as a kneejerk reaction to this, 1 of which was to completely disallow all fortifications from their tournaments, with the exception of the aegis defense line. They also made a rule that if your opponent concedes, you get zero points for the round(This rule would have made me lose the tournament if it was in place at that time.).

EDIT: Also, just want to point out that I paid around 100 dollars for the aquilla strongpoint. I got to use it 1 time before that particular shop banned it in competitive play.

egorey wrote:

PRIMARY CAD: 1401
Autarch: skyrunner, fusion, lance, banshee mask
Farseer, skyrunner, singing spear  

2x 3 Jet bikes: shuriken cannons
4x 3 Jet bikes: scatterlasers

2 Vypers: dual shuriken cannon
3 Vypers: eml

2x 3 Warwalkers: dual scatterlasers

CRIMSON DEATH: 440
Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons
2 Crimson Hunter: bright lances

I like the list, but I'd probably try to find the points to swap the war walker scatter lasers for starcannons. Same range, same strength, but 1 less shot and AP2 for only 5 points more. It will make them more effective against pretty much all infantry with at least a 5+, and about the same versus vehicles. Less glances, but higher pen chart results.

Starcannons are heavy 2 - scatterlasers are heavy 4. That is half the output. I used to like starcannons too but I've switched to scats and have been very happy with them. I only have two units of bikes with shuriken cannons because that is what is modeled. Otherwise i would use just one. I'm a big fan of volume of fire. Scatterlasers are just so damn points efficient. The list has enough extra shuriken cannons, starcannons on hunter, bright lances and emls that the extra AP2 is already covered.

Ever since the new codex dropped, I've been thinking scatter lasers were heavy 3 for some reason. 4 shots does indeed make a difference. Thanks for pointing that out!

Egory.
I really like that list you posted above. Looks like a lot of fun and points efficient.
I would like to hear more about your list if you play other versions of it. Also curious about the crimson hunters.
I tend to use two razorwings, and don't see that changing as they never disappoint me. They have won me countless games. I don't understand why so many people think they suck or can't figure them out?... I would like a crimson hunter(s) in my list. Might swap out one Razorwing or just add a hunter.
I am really keen on vypers and plan on buying some soon. I think keeping vypers cheap is the way to go. Originally I wanted to take a unit of 5-6 to spread out and cock block the middle of the board, but realizied that when they get shot I'll likely have to jink the unit and that will suck. Can you choose to jink with just a few vypers or does the whole unit have to? I would like the 5++ holo, but on a platform that you want to keep cheap it just doesn't seem worth it.

I would army mine like yours. Either duel cannons or maybe scatter and cannon. The EML seem cool as well. Bit I would only take the EML and not the cannon as they start getting too pricy.
I do have 2 hornets as that seems to be the perfect number. I have proxied playing with more, but found I don't need it. 3 would be nice though. Most of my armies seem to be reserve style lists as i like to hit first and from different angles. That and people don't usually know what to do against reserve lists.

That nid list is my favourite kind of nid list. I was this close to playing a similar army watching the nid list like that won the LVO this year. It looks crazy fun to play against.

Crimson hunter - it is now 20 points cheaper 140 or 160
with exarch. The exarch gets precision strike on a 5+.
Vector Dancer gives me an additional 90' turn after it
moves, meaning it can turn up to 90' before moves
and up to 90' after it completes its move. In Hammer
and Anvil games as it can just drift back and forth in
your deployment zone thinks to Vector Dancer,
keeping it out of range for most anti-flyer. A BS4 flyer
with a lot of firepower is great.

The issue is that flyrant will down either in a round of shooting
- hunters or razorwings. At least the hunters have range and
manoueverability to avoid FMCs and then kill them

But it is the crimson death formation that is treuly ugly. The
formation consists of 3 Crimson Hunters, of which 1
must be upgraded to be an Exarch. It then gives these
units Preferred Enemy against flyers and FMC's. It also
gives the unit 4+ cover that is always "on". But that's
not all...if a Crimson Hunter in the formation jinks, its
4+ cover is re-rollable.

I ban forge world at my tournies for the most part.

Reaverstar
1 Farseer Skyrunner (Spirit Stone of Anath’Lan)
1 Autarch Skyrunner (Banshee Mask, Shard)
7 Reavers (2x Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance) Champion (Agoniser)
-rending HoW, hit and run, no overwatch, fearless, telepathy or divination

LoW
Wraithknight (Wraithcannons, Scatterlaser)
- Targets 3 units a turn and is way undercosted.

Crimson Death Formation
2 Crimson Hunters (Brightlances), Exarch (Starcannons)
-the best formation in the codex IMHO. Others may argue this.

The Obligatory
Lhamaean, Venom (Dual Splinter Cannon) 75
2 x3 Scatbikes 162
2x 2 Vypers (Dual Shuriken Cannons)
2x 5 Warriors (Blaster) Venom (Dual Splinter Cannon) 240
-troops, HQ and more fast units

If I have to explain this list I've not being something right.

On an entirely different note I saw this played a few days ago:

Slaughtercult: 760
Herald of Khorne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Brazen Rune, Collar of Khorne (warlord)
10 Bloodletters, Bloodreaper, Banner of Blood (herald here)
8 Bloodletters, Bloodreaper
8 Bloodletters
8 Cultists
8 Cultists
5 Possessed, Rhino
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Spawn
War Engines: 1075
Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Soul Grinder
Soul Grinder
Soul Grinder
Soul Grinder

Guy was garnering blood tithe points like candy and spawned a Thirster and a walking DP with armour, had FNP  a lot and of course everything has khorne buffs in combat. My lord those eight walkers did damage. He did not care that he had no ObSec - he could kill anything on the table. And 4 SG handle FMCs and flyers fine with thirster back up (spawned turn three).

Now I'm okay with the core of some of these lists. But once you begin adding extra formations, LoWs multiple war machines, etc., it lends itself to abusive lists that might not be fun to play against. Both lists could be tweaked so that they are single detachments max two or a detachment and a formation.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

I ban forge world at my tournies for the most part.  

Hey Doxy, if you get time to read through my wall o' text regarding my social issues in the local scene and have any advice, it would be welcome and appreciated! Thanks!

So - got to thinking about Betray's Deathstar. There are a few issues. First we want maximum one CAD plus formation. Next we do not want any ranged D weapons or LoWs. These limitations are necessary at many venues and it really does not weaken the star much.

SEER COUNCIL DEATHSTAR: 560
Farseer Skyrunner - Shard of Anaris
Farseer Skyrunner - Spirit Stones of Anath'lan
7 Jetlocks, 4 Spears

CAD: 1287
Baharroth  (in deathstar)
Autarch Skyrunner - Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Banshee Mask (in deathstar)

5 Fire Dragons - Exarch
Wave Serpent - TL Brightlance

4x 3 Scatterbikes

7 Warp Spiders - Exarch
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Crimson Hunter

Couple of things here. The autarch gets your reserves when you need them. Crimson hunters bolster air defense. You have ObSec scoring of course. Now both Baharroth and the Autarch will be in the deathstar to add H+R and Fearless and deny overwatch. However what is cool is that Baharroth can DS in turn two, detach when he is not needed and DS in again. Now we have thirteen + D6 warp charge here.

Now you get to reroll your warlord traits and you really want An Eye on Distant Events  which confers Scout to D3 units in your army. This is potentially devastating if you use it on your seer council.

Your Warlocks should always roll all their powers on Runes of Battle to get Protect and Conceal, and you should take 7+ models if you can afford it to maximize your powers. This will net you four powers. Note too that you get to harness your powers on a 3+ instead of a 4+ - this is truly great.

Your two Farseers should carry the Spirit Stone and Shard of Anaris (for Fearless) between them, and the Spirit Stone Farseer should roll on Runes of Fate to get Fortune. The second Farseer should roll on Telepathy for Invisibility. Now you do not need the shard. You could save the 40 points as Baharroth makes your council fearless anyway. However, I plan on using the council for shooting and buffing and psychic witchfires more than assaulting. So Baharroth will pop in and out. It is also insurance if a Farseer gets precision shot.

Now they are strong because protect gives them a 2+ armourr save, conceal/shrouding gets you a 2+ jink save, they are very mobile.

The farseers need to stay with the council. Baharroth and the autarch can detach and do daage elsewhere if needed, grab maelstorm points, get linebreaker, etc. etc.

The list will beat Nid flyer spam - its a battle but they have a hard time against an invisible seer council. Now I would have used the crimson death formation but that would be over the limit of CAD plus one formation. So I satisfy myself with a list that is not cheese and still very potent on the table.

Baharroth is really a more expensive Baron that is a bit more powerful and allows us to forgo a DE allied detachment and play a pure codex list - albeit Eldar which is at this time probably the most powerful codex.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

egorey wrote:

On another note I think it absurd that a TO would change the rules just to challenge you. WTF? If you want to ban certain units because you feel they lead to unbalanced games that's okay.

Their counterpoint would surely be that they do feel the rules they're changing caused an unbalanced game. They'd say I used said unbalanced rules to win a previous tournament, and that's what brought the imbalance to their attention. And that could legitimately be true. They could totally believe all of that. It doesn't change the fact that it's always the rules that are relevant to my armies that get nerfed/house ruled.

Example. And yeah, this plan was a little dirty. I told you about it when I came up with it, I think. A tournament designed around ONLY the relic mission with dawn of war. Every match was dawn of war + relic. We all knew that prior to the tournament. I used an aquilla strongpoint macro cannon with an escape hatch that I placed as near the objective as possible. The strongpoint also had a void shield and the 4 heavy bolter emplacements. I used a unit of d-scythe wraithguard with eldrad and lelith hesperax to claim the relic on the first turn, then on the second turn, I embarked back into the building with the relic, through the escape hatch. I rinsed and repeated my way into winning the tournament. No one could tie me down in melee because of my model placement, and an invisible T6 unit with 3+ armor saves and 3++ invulns is difficult to shoot of the table in a single turn. Also, I had ranged D shots from the macro-cannons target things that were a threat. After winning the first round, there was a rules debate regarding whether all the rules worked that way, and the TO ended up ruling in my favor. 2 people dropped out of the tournament at that point in protest. My final opponent conceded, refusing to play against it in an attempt to keep me from winning by denying me the ability to score any points in the game. They first were acting like I was going to get zero points for the round, but I pointed out that the TO had earlier awarded someone else a "bye" due to their opponent dropping out of the tournament, and that he gave them half of the potential points for that round. The TO hesitently awarded me half of the possible points for the game, which was significantly lower than I was averaging. So it did lower my points average, but I still had enough points to tie for first place.

So anyhow, they thereafter made several new house rules as a kneejerk reaction to this, 1 of which was to completely disallow all fortifications from their tournaments, with the exception of the aegis defense line. They also made a rule that if your opponent concedes, you get zero points for the round(This rule would have made me lose the tournament if it was in place at that time.).

EDIT: Also, just want to point out that I paid around 100 dollars for the aquilla strongpoint. I got to use it 1 time before that particular shop banned it in competitive play.
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As requested, my response:

I'm not super sure what I am supposed to respond to here.  As a Dungeon Master of such an incredibly long time, I am very very used to identifying the things that are GOING to cause problems and...banning them.  I do so decisively and I have lost players over it.  I didn't care.  the long term health of my campaigns is worth mor t me than the goodwill of a malcontent chipmunk (chipmunk is what we call people who squeeze every drop out of every rule equivocation they can find).

So it comes naturally to me in 40K to do the same.  You can see the cheese coming from a mile away.  Mostly everyone can.  So choice one, the TO can let everyone play anything, no slippery slope.  Choice two, he can ban SECTIONS of things, still no slippery slope.  Choice three:  ban specific things, and possibly stand on a slippery slope but not care because its for the good of the game.  Choice C please!

But regardless of that, it is on the TO, and not the players.  That the TO decided to ANNOUNCE such a mission packet ahead of time:  assinine.  Not to have seen such a possibility coming?  Foolish at best.  To give only half points:  He already set the precedent so he had to do it for you also.  I get that decision.  But how again is it okay to cheat people out of points by quitting, in either case?  It wasn't.

Quit my tournament, you don't come back for the next.  You might not like my decisions but ya know what, I don't get paid ANYTHING to babysit you folks so I am GOING to do it my way. And if only ONE of us can end happy, it will be me.  Lol.

I think the TO was a complete boob is what I think; but not for banning that unit after the fact. He was a boob for having not banned it BFORE the fact.  I would have done so ahead of time anyways.  His utter lack of foresight cost him the goodwill of three players plus you.  THAT was his big mistake.  Thus his tournament no doubt had a cloud over it.

At some point, you must decide, even if you're totally justified by the mission and rules set forth by the TO (and again I want to stress:  he REALLY boob'd it up) whether you're going to be the guy that points out this critical flaw in the TO's "plan", and by doing so gain his good will when you might need it most later ooooor...  Not.  =)  

Dude botched his tournament badly.  You did nothing unfair.  But was it right?  Without getting Biblical on you, I would just say that the mirror knows the truth, and no one else does.  So ask it, next time you see it.  Maybe it can tell you what to do next time?  Might save you $100.  =)

I don't disagree with much that you've said, but I think I must have not expressed myself well. My concern wasn't really about the rules changes. It's more about this attitude towards me like I'm a villain. The fact that they are constantly trying to tweak and adjust the rules specifically to combat me in tournaments is a symptom of the true issue, which is, that it seems like they view me not as a random guy to play some games with, but as a super villain that they avoid playing against outside of tournaments, and try to change tournament rules to deter me from playing in those.

I admit that I can be rules-lawyerish, but 95% of the time I mention a rule and they have to look it up, they agree that I'm right. Aside from that, I'm perfectly civil and "nice" to the point of nearly grovelling. I rarely "toot my own horn", and am quick to agree when someone wants to claim that a particular result is the result of good/bad luck, rather than standard math that they could have expected, would they have put the time/work in to know the odds of their own units. I try not to make people feel inadequate or stupid. I understand that people are generally going to put as much time/effort/interest into knowing their hobby as they want to/are able, and so I don't push things on people. If people comment on good list composition or compliment my play, I am gracious, always saying thank you, and it is only then that I extrapolate on my process of design, as I take the compliment as interest in list building theory.

Still, I have somehow been essentially blacklisted outside of tournaments. Not completely. For instance, I'm on several lists, facebook groups, etc for 40k in this area. No one has kicked me off a list or anything, but as an example, if someone posts looking for a game on a thread for Thursday, and I respond that I can play before anyone else does, something will invariably come up that causes them not to be able to play. If someone else beats me to the punch, then "they said something first". It's not direct rudeness or excluding me vocally. It's all somewhat subtle.

The most blatant example of ill will was from one of the guys in that particular TOs group. We were in a tournament, and I didn't have my large blast template. A guy at the table next to me had one sitting on the same table I used for setting up my army. I looked over at him, playing next to me and asked, "You mind if I use this real quick?", to which he responded loudly, making a spectacle of it, "Yes, I mind. If you don't bring your own blast template, then you can't use the weapon!"

This was at a small gaming store in which it was common for both the store and individual players to share dice, templates, markers, etc. It's also a store that I never actually TOOK my tournament winnings. Because it was a small startup store, every time I won a tournament there, I donated my winnings to buy communal stuff for all the players of the store to use, like blast templates.