A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

That is one way to look at it, certainly.

Another would be to ask yourself if your earlier concerns about your standing might not again come under fire. Another question might be whether you NEED that many?

Valid concerns. But as it stands, I'd play against it anyways. Im just trying to give you food for thought.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

1.) Another would be to ask yourself if your earlier concerns about your standing might not again come under fire.  
2.) Another question might be whether you NEED that many?  

1. That's an issue that will never be resolved without me deciding to lose on purpose, or purposely design lists to lose, both of which drain all the fun out of the game for me. I don't mind losing a hard fought match, but if I'm not going to TRY to win, I'd rather not even play. If that attitude necessitates that people in my local meta don't want to be friends with me, then I'll play against people who aren't my friends, and just stick to having friends that aren't 40k players. That being said, I think this list, while gimmicky, is a fairly weak list. If playing a list like this isn't a step in the right direction for me(that direction being less challenging for my opponent), then I don't know what is.

2. No, of course not. The list is designed to play differently, basically being an army list who's entire turn is going to revolve around psychic powers and singing spear throws. Do you NEED this many psykers in a list? No. Could it be a fresh, fun way to play that shakes things up from the normal hum drum play style? Indeed.

A dual seer council is nothing new on the table. In fact it is a throwback which was designed to take on other deathstars in late 6th ed. With the codex changes you have managed to jink (pun intended) to accommodate this with the new codex. It is hardly cheese compared to d weapon spam. Eldar has a strong codex. Whichever list you field is going to be a challenge to beat.

J - your new list also breaks your self restricting limitations of not using multiple formations. That is just the state of 40k now. We are pretty much pigeonholed into constructing lists that use the new formations to stay competitive - this is by no means a 'waac gamer' stance.

I also designed a list with multiple wraith constructs (wraithlords). Here's the thing though. I did not use d weapons. This is the only concern I have with the eldar codex. A WK that can destroy an IK turn one - well. Wraithguard that can easily destroy any squad in the game in one turn - well. This ois my only peeve with the eldar codex TBH.

I like lists that are built differently from the norm - as many know. I'm enjoying all the new lists being posted on the thread. It is apparent you can build lists that are interesting and fun and still challenging for both the owning player and the opponent.

Now some will hark about a gimmicky list when you play multiple wraithlords or two seer councils or dark reaper spam, etc. They are a bit gimmicky - yes. But they are not designed to exploit rules loopholes or broken combinations and that makes them entirely acceptable. Anyone complaining has to rethink their prioroties. Are you playing to have fun or just to win?

I played a match with many borrowed models and a few of my own to test out the harlie/eldar interactions. I used no d-weapons or anything that could remotely be labeled cheesy.

Eldar:
Farseer: Shard of Anaris: Spirit Stones of Anath'lan: (warlord/runes of fate/sanctic)
3x 3 Scatbikes:
3 Shuribikes:
3 Warwalkers: Starcannons:

Aspect Host:
8 Swooping Hawks: Exarch: Hawks Talon:
8 Warp Spiders: Exarch:
5 Dark Reapers: 4 Starshot: Exarch: Eml:

Cast of Players:
5 Troupe: 3 Caress: 2 Embrace: Haywire Grenade: Starweaver:
Death Jester:
Shadowseer: Lvl2: Laughing God's Eye: Haywire Grenade: (phantasmancy)

Hero’s Path:
Solitaire: Cegaroth’s Rose:
Shadowseer: Lvl2: Mask of Secrets: (telepathy)
Death Jester:

I don’t have the details of my opponent’s list but it was a decision with a burning eye and a canoptek harvest formation.

I embark my farseer and dark reapers onto the starweaver and move forward to a favorable position to fire. I probably should have left him with the harlie troupe but non-the-less he survives the game. He is playing Decurion and I want to target his warlord squad. He is sitting with his warriors. The Warp Spiders also leap forward 18" with their Warp Jump but they have no clear target this turn so stay behind cover. The solitaire, shadowseer and death jester all position themselves hoping for some decent shots and some good powers. The harlie troop with shadowseer and death jester stay together. The hawks are in reserve with two bike squads. I do get Veil of Tears off and Laugh of Sorrows - this is huge. I end up killing his warlord squad with help from reapers.

From here the game went downhill bait for the Necrons.  He still had his burning eye c’tan formation and canoptek harvest so he decided to gate the  c’tan and crypteks forward. He moves to assault with his wraiths too. But his shooting phase causes a few wounds only and he cannot get an assault off. This was his downfall. My units come in and make short work of the burning eye formation with warp spiders and reapers and the hawks bikes and reapers take out his immortal squad and spyder.

Not to bore you the game ended with me still with warp spiders my warlord some hawks and a shadowseer, two wind rider bike squads alive. He was tabled turn six. It was a fairly brutal game that illustrated how darn strong elder can be when supplementing with harlies.  I was actually a little surprised as I had not played this list before and had to borrow a number of models to field it. The list was way to forgiving - I made a few positioning mistakes and forgot some rules and still beat a decurion. Warp spiders are great equalizers.  They took down the burning eye conclave in two turns. Swooping hawks did well but reapers lacked an optimum target. However he had a spyder that needed to go down. Wraiths without the spyder are much easier to handle and reapers will kill a canoptek spyder. Target priority was very important for both us. The necrons mistakes were not as forgiving as mine as I had psychic buffs to bail me out.

The two harlie formations I took are solid gold. They are designed it seems to be just what I used them for - add-ons to another force. Getting stealth, shrouded and infiltrate and move through cover on heroe's path is very, very good. The Mask of Secrets shadowseer does not need to use his powers for durability buffs - he will generally be getting 2+ anyway. The other formation is probably best when you can run your eldar as they get crusader (not bikes) and is great with battle focus and adds two decent characters to a unit that assault in cc is nice. Veil keeps them alive and if you roll 'fog of dreams you are golden indeed.

Harlies are pretty good in assault with eldar BUT their psychic powers - rolling laugh was enormous - rock. I mean dance of shadows is great. Who does not want stealth and shrouded on a squad. Now the discourse nova power is pretty mediocre - maybe useful against a horde list which is less and less common. I guess 2D6 S4 shots are okay. Now shards of light is way better. This one blinds! So 3D6 shots. If you hit you blind. That is very good.  Now fog of dreams is getting to the good stuff. It is an inverse invisibility. Now laugh of sorrows will get you unless you are around LD7 - because over or under hurts. Both high LD and low LD will take wounds with no cover or armour saves. I love this power. You also might get lucky with mirror of minds. You keep testing against the seer's LD and if he has mask of secrets this is going to hurt.

I bring this up because harlies and eldar are not very durable. They want to pin, reduce LD, blind and whatever other tricks they can bring to the table to survive. The aspect shrines certainly help but you really want to roll well on psychic powers. Generally telepathy and phantasmancy are your best. This can make or break you.

That was a pretty thorough victory.

I prsonally havent heard good things as regards harlequins but putting the Reapers in that transport is one of the better things you can do with them and with Dark eldar allies too. I really like that idea a lot. Dark Reapers are a unit I have used a lot so I am appreciative of their power to affect the game at a reasonable cost.

Sounds like he didnt play very smart though. Sunds like deployment as well as his first and second turns were hampered by teir General. Now that he knows your trcks you should play him aain and see if the same tricks will work twice. Always a key question.

Warp Spiders continue to be awesome, of course. Yay Warp Spiders.

The thing with the harlies is that they have multiple tricks to pin, reduce LD, give themselves shrouding, debuff other units. Wriths hit with reverse invisibility are not scary as an example. Both psychic shrieks and laugh of sorrow works well against most xenos. Being able to infiltrate nasty units with 2+ cover is also nice. Eldar supply cheap ObSec and a vicious aspect shrine that really helps mitigate some of the harlies weaknesses. Even though my opponent made a few errors so did I. I think I would win the rematch as well unless he changed up his list. To be fair to him he did not have the options for deployment that I have - walking warriors and immortals - meh. Only his burning eye formation has a trick (gate) and that only once a game.

The list above has ten units only and just forty models. It is rather elite in nature and an MSU list would be a good counter to it. Heroe's Path is strange to get a grip on. The DJ can infiltrate in cover and snipe. The Solitaire has to pick his battles well. The shadowseer has to hide and use his powers wisely. Since they are all solo (they cannot join units), it takes a bit of finesse - which is where I faltered a bit in the game. But I saw the potential and I will make corrections next time out.  

I also need to review my use of psychic powers first. I should have placed the farseer with the harlie troupe and rolled on sanctic. They have some very useful powers albeit the primaris is not good against necrons. Had I rolled any of the other powers though I would have been well served. Also telepathy is now not giving me the results I want. Other than shriek I'm not overly impressed. Again I need to sit down and review these powers again. Psychic buffs and debuffs are really important to the build. Anything that offers protection to your fragile models is good. I want fortune anytime. That said a votrtex of doom or cursed earth is nice. Psychic shriek or invisibility is nice. There are no obvious winners here - a lot depends on what you field and the synergy with the list.  

Harlie troupes are very good inn cc. Even a squad of five with the DJ and seer can do damage. I ran them on foot using veil early on and then switching powers. I think they match up to banshees well. Also embrace bypasses invisibility (not that it was needed here). Bottom line is that the unit as composed will do a lot of damage on the charge. I'm actually not sure what the best load out is but I had a TAC one for this match up as I do not plan on changing the list for each codex.

Of course, I need not go into the aspect shrine. We are all aware of the goodness of the three aspects I chose.

This was a test for me.
1) I wanted to use Eldar as I think they should be used. I did not want to fall back on crimson death, WKs or d-scythes as crutches. I wanted Eldar main and see what they could do with some harlies for support.
2) I needed to back up my suppositions about harlies as allies. Was phatasmancy as good as I believed? Were troupes the cc threat I envisioned? How good is a solitaire in cc?
3) I count this game as a minor success. However my opponent played (and he is experienced), decurion is a threatening and durable list. We were both assessing harlies and deciding how to play with and against them.
4) I think we now have some decent info that shall be put to good use. It is hard to construct any list today that is truly TAC. There are just too many new codex and builds. I've said before that I feel a lot of 40k has become rock-paper-scissors. I think it does not have to be that way if we look at what truly constitutes a TAC list.


'The government confirmed today that the Warhammer 40k rule book will be replacing the charter of rights'

As regards my use of multiple detachments, I abandoned that restriction a while ago, pretty much after i saw the Militarum Tempestus in action. I realized then that it just was not possible any longer, and Grey Knights were another confirmation of that as well.

Having said that, you note that i still rarely if ever mix codex's. While i did a little experimenting here and there, and have done much postulation, the reality is I am stll always going to feel "wrong" about bringing multiple codex's together. Even this isnt entirely true since Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas had their options taken from them.

So yeah I've sort of come to accept that multiple formations is a thing and I may as well get used to it. I will not do forge World. THAT I will not do.

So we have a nasty new deathstar for eldar:

farseer: spirit stone of a anth’lan
maugan ra
vaul’s support battery: 3 d-weapons: warlock

6 striking scorpians: exarch: scorpians claw

4x 3 windrider bikes: 3 shuriken cannons
3 windrider bikes: 2 scatterlaser

crimson hunter exarch: starcannons: pulse lasers
2x hemlock wraithfighters

2x fire prisms: holofields

The list has eight warp charge - so you have plenty of shenanigans with your psychic powers - invisibility, psychic shriek, conceal, etc. So - it is a deathstar that only costs a measly 475 points. This is not bad in an 1850 list as it also gives you your HQs and extra warp charges. It is well supported with five ObSec troops and a bit of AA to boot (hemlocks can target FMCs, BTW).

The weapons battery situates itself so that it is within 24" of three objectives (you generally get to place three). This is huge in maelstrom. If you move it onto a relic you will never dislodge it. You have created a 48" do not enter zone here. You do not want to assault that quickly - maugan ra is no slouch and the scorpians will counter charge. It is also T7 and has tanking ICs and possible fortune/conceal/invisibility. Good luck with that.

Now why maugan ra? Well he has 4 shot rending shuriken cannon with multiple modes that he can fire twice each shooting phase. He makes the squad fearless. He has a great save. He is no slouch in cc. He can also split fire from the battery (so three targets a turn if you wish).

Yes there are unusual choices here. I happen to think fire prisms are still excellent. The list needs long range dakka. It has three firing modes.The prism cannon rules. You have the dispersed mode, a S5 AP3 large blast, great for MEQ and anything more fragile. You have the focused mode, a TEQ hunting small blast with S7 and AP2, good for all things the previous mode didn’t quite get. Finally we thave the lance mode, used to scythe down anything that doesn’t strictly walk where it needs to go (at S9 AP1 with the lance rule).  I happen to also like scorpians. Decent save, these are the ninjas of the codex with an exarch that has a great melee weapon. It is the icing on a dakka list. You need a unit that is tough and can assault where and when you require it.

Is Maugan Ra Relentless... or is he Slow and Purposeful? It matters. Dont have a codex in front of me.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

Is Maugan Ra Relentless...  or is he Slow and Purposeful?  It matters.  Dont have a codex in front of me.

Neither. His weapon is assault-based. That was one of the first things I checked when the new codex dropped. If he had the slow and purposeful that his aspect disciples have, he could have conferred that onto units of artillery for deep striking d-cannons of doom.


Going to double-check the codex when I have a chance, to analyze his use here further.

Maugan Ra has relentless but his weapon is assault and relentless does not transfer to the squad. Slow and purposeful does. So no  - you can move the battery turen ione and fire Maugan's weapons only. However, that should place you in a good position turn two onward. You are forcing your opponent to stay over 24" while you sit 6-9 inches in front of your deployment zone. Or he can take his chances. D weapon batteries are pretty much OP if you can get into optimal range of anything. Ranged D provides no real tactical approach besides providing the player with a killbox. Enter within and it's your ass. Enough sporadic shooting outside and you have no choice but to enter. Unerstanf this. It is a KILLBOX unit and you will deploy to bait the opponent into range.

The reason you have fire prisms and flyers is so that you can also strike the back of your opponent's deployment zone if needed. You need to make your opponent feel like he is between 'a rock and a hard spot'. You want him mooving forward but then he is within range of those d-weapons.

This is the point of the list ... you keep your units within 12" of the d-weapon battery if possible and on objectives. This forces your opponent to come to you or lose control of the board. That is what makes the list nasty. You can target his units out of range with your flyers. So what is your opponent going to do to counter this? He better have a lot of AA for sure. He is not going to get your battery easily. I can sit on the three objectives I place all game in maelstorm.

And as a bonus: a legal tournament list at almost all venues.

Khorne Daemonkin Blood Oath Formation - Hellforged Hunting Pack

- All units must have the Khorne Daemonkin Faction
- Daemon of Khorne, Rage
- Follow the Alpha Engine: If this formation's Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne makes a successful charge, all other models in this Formation can re-roll subsequent failed charge rolls in the same assault phase
- Swift and Bloody Vengeance: Each time a model from this formation is completely destroyed, all other models in this Formation gain one extra attack.
- Requirements: 1 Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne, 8 models from the following list: Deflier, Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend, Soul Grinder, Blood Slaughterer of Khorne, Chaos Decimator Daemon Engine

Hellforged Hunting Pack 1850

Greater Brass Scorpion 700
3x Maulerfiend: Magna Cutters 405
Maulerfiend: Lasher Tendrils 140
2x Soullgrinder: Harvester Cannon: 270
Soulgrinder: Harvester Cannon: Phlegm Bombardment 165
Heldrake: Baleflamer 170


Understand that this is part of the Khorne Daemonkin list and as such you generate blood tithe ( greater brass scorpian does not) and are fearless. If the scorpion makes a successful charge, all models can re-roll to charge and if any model dies, you get +1 attacks for the formation. Just imagine having a scorpian and having lost 4 guys - 7/8 attacks each for the maulers remaining and that is without charge or rampage bonuses, and 10+ attacks for the scorpian.You get rage and counter-charge for being a daemon of khorne. So you have 36 HP with IWND on most of the list.  This is how Khorne was meant to be played - a real assault based list. You need to remember that walkers get bonus attacks for each extra weapon and get hammer wrath attacks. Rush forward - take a few casualties and charge ... soul grinders are pretty good assaulting with extra attacks.

Tactics: Point. Advance. Ignore terrain. Smash. It really is that simplistic with this list. You have AA in heldrakes and soulgrinders. You obviously have AI and AT. With 7ed vehicle damage charts and with IWND on your walkers - well - you are not going to go down easily.

GBS (AV 14/13/10, 9 HP IWND)
Maulerfiend (AV 12/12/10, 3 HP IWND)
Soulgrinder (AV 13/13/11 4 HP Deamonic Resiliance)
Heldrake (AV 12/12/10 5++ 3 HP IWND)

Note that you need to chew through 36 HP with IWND. Even though the list has only nine models it is very hard. If you don't have the weapons to deal with those 36 HP you will be in trouble.

Greater Brass Scorpion:
- 24” Ignores cover S10 AP2 large blast with re-roll to wound
- 36’ Heavy 10 S6 AP3 cannon
- Dual S6 AP3 template
- Seven S10 AP2 attacks on the charge (without khorne daemonkin bonus)
- Charges 3D6” and moves 12” (so average 22”)
- D3 + 2 stomp attack- +2 to catastrophic damage table
- Psykers automatically peril when targeting it

Greetings everyone,

It has been a long time since I've checked in. The last few months have been nuts for me (work and travel and family/friends stuff). I recently got a ton of games in against my friends with the list I presented a while back.

Quote :

Realspace Raiders
Haemie (scissorhand)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (double SC)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (double SC)
6 reavers (2 caltrops)
6 reavers (2 caltrops)
5 scourges (4 heat lances)
5 scourges (4 heat lances)
Razorwing jetfighter (stock!)
3 Talos (trip SCs)

Grotesquerie
haemie (scissorhand)
4 grots (1 abberation with scissorhand) in raider (lance)
4 grots (1 abberation with scissorhand) in raider (disintegrator)

So overall I have a ton of fun playing this list. It gets in my opponents face and it mulches most units in CC though things can get stuck. Against Nids, this army wrecks face since ID on all the cc weapons running around along with the rending attacks from scissorhands mulch MCs. Is the list tourny worthy? Haha, no. It doesn't stand up against the hardercore armies and certain match ups are a death sentence.

I recently had a mini tourny against a handful of friends over a weekend. I had 1 win, 1 tie, 3 losses. I beat nids (duh), tied DA with knight and stormwing formation, and lost to Mech IG and another DE army and Tau. Its painfully obvious that I can't handle flyers and as a whole DE struggle really hard against them. A single knight I can generally handle...I managed to kill the one I faced using reavers in CC (that rending HoW with some luck is gold). With some other shooting it fell. That game was awesome and luckily the flyers didn't come in T2 otherwise I would have lost for sure. Nids I have no problem against (list had 2 flyrants and other goodies). The Mech IG...went second, hence I lost to a massive alpha strike of arty and heavy weapons. If I had gone first i would have fair much much better as I would have been in his lines T1. Struggled against all the tanks but it was tough because I lost most of my stuff or had to foot it with my good units into a gun line. The DE match was a really good game. I figured I would struggle bc I make use of high toughness units. It was close in the end, but he eeked it out. Fighting Tau was a joke...I had zero chance. He went first and proceeded to cripple me hard. So much ignores cover and other anti CC things (like huge overwatch abilities) crippled me hard. Had I gone first, things might have gone better, but I struggled hard with that one. I barely play tau so that didn't help, but once again, being alpha struck hurt.

So whats the point to my rambling? DE will struggle against a lot of things these days. I think this codex is still leagues better than the last one as a whole. The grotesquerie does serious work and I love the Talos squad. Poison doesn't get it done as well as it used to, but still does solid work. I don't think it's ever worth it to run reavers with weapons...most of the time they will be jinking for that 3+ cover save and 2+ if you are turboing around. I thought they did really well. Scourges were always mixed for me. I recently went off haywire blasters for heat lances in order to better my odds against vehicles that have saves for w/e reason. Still not sold...but I'm not a fan of ravagers either as I generally have never had good luck with lances.

The question arises...do I want to use pure DE still? I would love to if they could hit a bit harder or just last until the end of the game. What's a guy to do?

I think at this point I'm going to start contemplating using my Eldar again and ally them via a CAD. This hearkens back to when I ran 2 talos, grot squad and WK last edition. The problem will be fitting all the goodies I want into 1850. WK is a must...its too good to not include. Slap in a farseer and two cheap troop units (tbd) and I should be able to increase the effectiveness of killing armor and taking the heat off some of my other units. I could add warp spiders too if I want to as well. I want to keep the grotesquerie and ideally the talos squad as well. I play ITC rulings these days with my pals as we find the missions and rulings fair and good for play, so I have to use DE in a realspace raiders detachment (though I could go allied detachment I suppose). Here is what I am thinking about currently:

Quote :

Realspace Raiders
Haemie (scissorhand)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (double SC)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (double SC)
3 reavers (base)
3 Talos (SC)

Grotesquerie
haemie (scissorhand)
4 grots (1 abberation with scissorhand) in raider (disintegrator)
4 grots (1 abberation with scissorhand) in raider (disintegrator)

Eldar CAD
Farseer on bike
3 Windriders (2 scatter lasers)
3 Windriders (2 scatter lasers)
WK (2 scatter lasers)

1850 pts

What do you guys think?

I think allying Eldar in to ANY army is a good idea. Lol. ESPECIALLY the Jetbikes.

I think it is the WK that ligs wants to add the most. I would point out ...

1) Having a large threat in the form of an LoW can most definitely alter the landscape. Durable units that do a lo0t of damage take a lot of heat of the rest of the list for sure. The list I posted with the Brass Scorpian is an example of a very durable list. If you cannot deal with that LoW quickly the rest of the list will hurt you. In the Wraithlord list I have 18x T8 3+ wounds. So immediately your glass cannons - DE warriors, venoms etc., become less of a liability as they cannot ignore your more duarble units.

2) All said and done you need mobility. A WK can move 12". Bikes are fast. But relying on either is dangerous. I would certainly target bikes early to destroy your ObSec and prevent you from getting extra maelstrom points and they are prime targets for first blood too. I would mention that 3 reavers are also quite a small unit. MSU was big at the start of 7ed. Now it has in some instances become a liability. I would only target a MSU squad to prevent it from grabbing a maelstrom point or to get first blood. They just are not threatening enough. I use MSU troops these days to fill in my minimum requirements. I use an extra in my Wraithlord list only because they get shred and AP2.

3) It is become more and more difficult not to use formations, detachments, allies. GW is driving us to this. It is now a handicap that is too difficult to overcome to use just a single CAD - unless the tournament restricts it for everyone - in which case it can be quite a fun experience. Otherwise you are just likely to be run over.

4) Now one more point. Today's meta has a lot of alpha strike lists. It is quite difficult to defend against alpha strike if you have no reserve manipulation or no means to help ensure first turn. All you can do to defend is to try and keep units out of LoS (very terrain dependent) or have very durable units. I've started designing lists with multiple durable units ... if I lose a unit turn one I can still compete. You could use a list that can null deploy a good portion of your list to defend as well. Be sure though that you can drop something in turn one or that you definitely can survive the first turn shooting. The landscape has changed.

I agree. Realism has set in for me and I think the tournament rules are going to have to be your guide on how to build... which makes it tougher to ask for advice because of course for the advice to mean much, you have to assume the ITC or know the particular tournaments rules.

Outside the Box Orks

Ork Horde Detachment: 1372
2x weirboyz lvl 2
mad dok grotsnik
2x 5 tankbustas bomb squig
2x 30 slugga boyz 3 rokkits nob bp pk
3x 10 grots runtherder
3x 1 defkopta twin rokkit klaws
3x 1 kustom mega kannon 2 ammo runt +1 grot

Mogroks Boosboyz: 474
mogrok da finking cap shokk attack gun gitfinda
2x big mek shokk attack gun gitfinda
weirboy lvl2
warboss da lucky stikk kombi-scorcha pk ‘eavy armour

So all the weirdboyz, mad dok and warboss get divided between the two large boyz mobs. When you waagh it will hurt. You can go for malefic or ork psychics or combine the two. Thewre are a slew of decent powers here. The meks go with either tankbustas or gunz.

List looks soft right. Think again. This list will pose some problems for a lot of armies. Thirteen units and  well over 100 models and you can summon daemons as well. You have a 'gate' a 'vomit attack' possible sanctuary or hammerhand - well choose wisely. It might not be a true green horde but it has elements that make it nasty.

Now you get very kunni' from the formation so D# units have acute senses and outflank. You can ceratainly start one mob in reserves. You also get an extra warlord trait along with 'brutal and kunni9n'' from the strategic table - lots of goodies there. I will also mention I love shock attack guns with gitfindas and mega kannons. If you don't  then don't play orks.

egorey wrote:

I think it is the WK that ligs wants to add the most. I would point out ...

1) Having a large threat in the form of an LoW can most definitely alter the landscape. Durable units that do a lo0t of damage take a lot of heat of the rest of the list for sure. The list I posted with the Brass Scorpian is an example of a very durable list. If you cannot deal with that LoW quickly the rest of the list will hurt you. In the Wraithlord list I have 18x T8 3+ wounds. So immediately your glass cannons - DE warriors, venoms etc., become less of a liability as they cannot ignore your more duarble units.

2) All said and done you need mobility. A WK can move 12". Bikes are fast. But relying on either is dangerous. I would certainly target bikes early to destroy your ObSec and prevent you from getting extra maelstrom points and they are prime targets for first blood too. I would mention that 3 reavers are also quite a small unit. MSU was big at the start of 7ed. Now it has in some instances become a liability. I would only target a MSU squad to prevent it from grabbing a maelstrom point or to get first blood. They just are not threatening enough. I use MSU troops these days to fill in my minimum requirements. I use an extra in my Wraithlord list only because they get shred and AP2.

3) It is become more and more difficult not to use formations, detachments, allies. GW is driving us to this. It is now a handicap that is too difficult to overcome to use just a single CAD - unless the tournament restricts it for everyone - in which case it can be quite a fun experience. Otherwise you are just likely to be run over.

4) Now one more point. Today's meta has a lot of alpha strike lists. It is quite difficult to defend against alpha strike if you have no reserve manipulation or no means to help ensure first turn. All you can do to defend is to try and keep units out of LoS (very terrain dependent) or have very durable units. I've started designing lists with multiple durable units ... if I lose a unit turn one I can still compete. You could use a list that can null deploy a good portion of your list to defend as well. Be sure though that you can drop something in turn one or that you definitely can survive the first turn shooting. The landscape has changed.

All good points. Yes, the WK is a big distraction asking to have attention. And if it doesn't get its due course it will wreck you. This list is suprisingly quick minus the talos which generally aim to take mid field anyways and make a good charge at some point. The reavers were a cheap choice to take the realspace detachment with the potential to go around picking up objectives and being a small distraction. These days, obsec is super important but not the end all be all depending on the game at hand. I still ignore flyers with this list, but it aims to be a pain by using many tougher units from DE and Eldar.

Here is the thing today. I play and test a number of lists. Your new list has some good elements to it. What happens on the table top though often surprises me. I've lost my fair share of close games recently.With the advent of some very tough formations from a lot of different sources, the inclusion of FW and some nasty LoWs some of my promising looking lists have fallen in battle. Your list has a good mix of options but a clever player with the latest models for the best formations and detachments (which is becoming more and more common) may pick it apart. This is why you see those aspect formations and LoWs and lots of d weapons. It is a sad commentary on the current game, I know.

For this reason still play lists that are outside the box. My newest attempt at orks is an example. A large squad of fearless orks and an outflanking squad of fearless orks backed by damage inducing MSU units. Ad in some random but possibly game winning posychic buffs, some FNP, possible rampaging units, etc., and just see how the die roll. On paper it looks amusing. In game play it can win miraculously or fail miserably. But if I win I do get to quack a bit. And no one can say I'm using anything OP. The temptation is to use a stompa with a mega force field and burna meks and big mek. Then add in the airborne formation. This would be the waac approach to orks. But I will not go that route.  

I played Eldar last time out. It was against a drop pod marine list (skyhammer combat squad
grav devs) that had a smack of waac about it. but i had the perfect answer to it or so I thought. Of course I'm playing without d in this list or any FW (hornets) or an LoW (WK). This is an automatic handicap.

Windrider Host: 827
Farseer - Skyrunner - Spirit Stones of Anath’Lan  - Telepathy/Runes of Fate
5 Jetlocks - 5 Singing Spear - Sanctic/Runes of Battle
2x 3 Windrider Bikes - Shuriken Cannons - Warlock - Skyrunner - Singing Spear
3 Vyper - Dual Shuriken Cannons

Regents of the Warhost: 195
Avatar of Khaine - Warlord - Personal Traits

Wraith-construct: 825
5x Wraithlord - 2 Brightlances - 2 Flamers - Ghostglaive

With a windrider host you gain:
Matchless Agility - always count as rolling 6 when running
Tempest of Blades - all units gain shred (reroll to wound) on shuri weapons for one turn.
Khaine Awakened - Any unit within 12” of the Avatar has furious charge, rage and fearless - think seer council here.

You have:
36 Str 6 shots per turn (once with shred) and bladestorm (AP2 on 6s) at 24”
16 str 4 shots per turn (once with shred) and bladestorm (AP2 on 6s) at 12”
10 Str 8 shots per turn and lance (all AV no more than 12)  at AP2 at 36”
7 Str 9 shots and fleshbane at 12”
2 Str 8 AP1 melta at 12”

I got all the powers I needed - including a fearless seer council through telepathy. I also got FNP on the Avatar and one of my powers was renewer (hilarious). I had an average of 12 WC each turn. Drop pods do not want to see five WLs and Avatar but his list killed two WKs an took my Avatar down to two wounds turn one! Usually they will not be able to take them all out before they mess you up and are a good counter to drop pods. But skyhammer ... well. I even got a shuriken cannon shred round in early. However the maelstrom mission cards failed me and I had no ObSec. Overall though I was lucky - had my avatar been killed I would have lost fearless meaning a lot of my list could have been pinned down and forced to GtG.

In the end I went down 23-20. Even though my list is durable, mobile and has both assault and dakka I lost. I had reassess my tactics after the game and made some mental adjustments on what works and does not work against the new SM. I would most certainly play the list again though. Twas fun.

You have two ways to defend against this formation. The first is to null deploy yourself. Bear in mind though that a skyhammer can choose to come in turn two as well and you need atleast some troops on the table at turn's end. I reserved some of my bikes This was good as turn two I got my shred roll. I did not really want to reserve all my bikes. Doing that they would arrive piecemeal as I had no reserve manipulation and my shred turn would be weakened. I felt the WLs and Avatar would be the prime targets anyway. But there are lists that can DS and have reserve manipulation. Those lists will counter skyhammer well.

Your second option - which I employed - is to spread out and divide the opponents drop. With multiple threatening units that was my best option and I came close coming back after the initial alpha strike of my opponent. Unfortunately for me my saves were mediocre and his assault squad managed to tie up my seer council ... with fleet ASM that can assault when dropping have a 50/50 chance of getting it off if you are not careful with your positioning. I also did not get first turn so I had no psychic buffs. The combination conspired to make his first turn deadly. Also I wanted to make sure everything was within the 12" bubble of my avatar. Another consideration. You cannot force a fearless unit to GtG or pin it.

So I ask you Ligs
How would your WK list survive an alpha strike by skitarii drop pod or skyhammer? He has assault marines to tie up important units and grav devs to take out GMCs, IKs etc. These types of lists are becoming more the norm every new codex release and supplement release. WKs were thought to be OP but GW is leveling the field with new formations, etc. Thee is no cheese when everything is cheese - imbalanced units on both sides make for balance in a strange way.

So i played my 750 point Sisters of Battle against the nasty spawning pools of Brians Tyranids.

Game was super interesting.

My list:
135pts St. Celestine

134pts 7 Sisters of Battle (Veteran Sister Superior w Melta Bomb + Power Maul, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Heavy Flamer)

40pts Rhino

129pts 7 Sisters of Battle (Veteran Sister Superior w Melta Bomb + Power Maul, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Flamer)

40pts Rhino

135pts Exorcist

135pts Exorcist

His list:

Original 500:
Tryant w/ wings, 2x TL Devourer, E-grubs
Lictor
Venomthrope
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike
5x Genestealers

Additional 250:
Tervigon w/ E Shock Grubs and Cluster Spines
1x Biovore


He deployed first so that he could go second hoping, I am sure, to net both First Blood and Last Blood (the special 2 point objectives for this mission). Plus he just likes to see what I'm going to do.

So his Venomthrope, Tervigon, and Tyrant started in a ruin. I deployed the exorcists far from him. He decided to go second.

Rnd 1:
The Exorcists let loose and their guns were angry. They hit unerringly but the ruins and the Venomthrope protected the Tyrant, allowing me to land only one wound on it.

The Tyrant responded, streaking towards the Adepta Sororitas battle tanks. The Tervigon let loose 10 of its progeny from the pulsing sac below its maw. The three objectives were in the middle and its spawn were not far from my westernmost objective.

Rnd 2
St. Celestine broke from the clouds, alighted and burninated a pair of the foul spawn as if to say "not today". Behind her to the southwest rode an Adepta Sororitas Rhino filld with eager and faihful ladies of the Emperor. The Exorcists shifted forward along the eastern board edge and fired, wounding the Tyrant again, though it managed to stay aloft. Their fusillade was truly something to fear.

The angered Hive Tyrant veered and shot St. Celestine and even though it had Jinked, it managed to land SIX shots into her and even her mighty blessed armor found it too much, as she tripped and fell, nearly slain, coughing and sputtering, her grievous wounds nigh mortal. Making matters worse, the Gene Stealers that had been lurking to the East like maleficent fiends manifested themselves, threatening the Exorcist furthest north with their chittering presence. The 2nd Exorcist, behind it, found two Lictors on its rear which had snuck from the muck, shooting the back end of it. They would have killed it but... a force, like the invisible hand of the Emperor himself came to its aid. It was forced into immobility, its tracks broken and its gun mangled and unusable despite a healthy supply of ammunition within. nonetheless, The Shield of Faith had saved it from destruction. Emperor be praised.

Round 3
Angry at the sight of the affront to St. Celestine, the second Adepta Sororitas unit roared forth in their rhino, disgorging and readying for battle in the Sougheast. The Storm Bolter atop the Holy Rhino tore angrily into the first Lictor, spinning it in place and distracting it from its prey, while the Sisters of Battle let loose their cleansing absolution for the second one, setting it ablaze in a sizzling pile of judgement.

The sisters of battle to the southwest alighted and shot into the Termagaunts, ylling prayers to the Emperor as they moved.

The northerly Exorcist realized its peril and let loose into the oncoming Genestealers, killing several, but despite the best efforts of its gunners, one remained.

St. Celestine, an example to us all, rose, spitting blood and popping her ribs into place then powered towards the little spawns that had offended her, as the hand of inevitability does. Their uncomprehending minds were engulfed in the eternal embrace of her swords flames and then she cut into the lot of them, returning them to the primordial ooze state they enjoyed inside their recent womb. She pointed her sword at their mother as if to say "you're next".

The Hive Tyrant veered in the skies again and collected its Psychic might, but its rage overrode its control over the warp and the Warp responded, consuming the Tyrant in midair, no doubt causing its lance beam to miss badly as it screamed its last helplessly. The lone Lictor charged the Sisters of Battle to the Southeast seing that the Exorcist was little more than a broken toy, but got annihilated like its confederate for its troubles in flaming overwatch fires. The Genetealer slashed with vicious claws at the northerly Exorcist but could not rend it into submission.

A Ripper Swarm Deepstruck into a ruin in the southeast quadrant near the Easternmost Objective. The monstrous Tervigon again vomited a mass of Termagaunts onto the table and they streaked towards the central objctive while the Tervigon itself turned its baleful eyes on St' Celestines outstretched blade, charging her, but St. Celestine was fastest, slashing the bast across its nose and wounding it.

Round 4
The Southeastern Sisters of Battle trekked forward towards the Ripper Swarms in the building and shot them but they went to ground and suffered but two wounds from the effort. The Exorcist finished the Genestealer in front of it, while moving to claim the Eastern Objective, leaving the eastern flank nearly free of enemies.

The Sisters of Battle to the west pushed their Rhino onto the western objective while shooting at yet another mass of released Termagaunts but they felt no pain for some reason and resisted well o they charged and smashed into the Termagaunts. At this time, the Exorcist held the Eastern Objective, no one held the Center and the left was now contested by Termagaunts and Sisters of battle plus their Rhino.

The Tyranids Deep Struck another ripper Swarm near the Central objective. FIFTEEN more Termagaunst spawned from the Tervigon and the other Termagaunts streamed forward to try and take the central objective and shot the sisters of Battle, killing one, who bravely threw herself like a true Martyr in front of her commander. St Celestine used the moment of distraction to smite the thing again, but it would be hr last action, as it tore her in half, adding her to its biomass.

Turn 5
The eastern Rhino tank shocked the Ripper swarm and forced them to run from the central objective. The Sisters of battle on that same side fired on and rushed the other Rippers to begin the cleansing. The Rhino now controlled the Central Objective, the Exorcist controlled the Eastern objective. That left the Sisters of Battle and their Rhino to deal with the Termagaunts on the Western Objective and so they finished the Termagaunts off.

The Sisters of Battle in the ruin wrecked the Rippers but couldn't consolidate QUITE far enough to protect the Eastern Objective (missed it by an inch).

The Tervigon spewed three more gaunts onto the western objective in an attempt to save it, and then in a desperate attempt to clear the objective itself, charged the offending Rhino that guarded the valuable but sabotaged object of its desires. It hit with all its attacks but despite this, the Shield of Faith saved the Rhino! Not only that but the objective, being sabotaged as all of them were, exploded killing the three gaunts it had just created and damaging the Rhinos final hull point! BUT once AGAIN... The Shield of Faith protected it! TWICE in the same round did the faith of the Rhinos crew get tested and twice didst the Emperors hand stay calamity! The western objective therefore now belonged to the Sisters of Battle!

The Tyranid Termagaunts ran and needed 5" to reach and claim the Eastern objective held by the Exorcist, and made it!

So at games end, the Sisters of Battle secured two of the three objectives, Acheived the special First Blood Secondary Objective (2 points) when they killed the Lictor, got LAST blood (2 points) when the Shield of Faith stopped the Rhino from blowing up while claiming the Termagaunts, and fed the Warlord to the Warp (1).

The Tyranids claimed the Eastern Objective (3 points because obsec vs the Exorcist) and also got St Celestine (1)

Final core: 11-4 Adepta Sororitas victory.

So I've been asked - what list do you use if you want a heavy cc oriented army? Can these lists compete? Well here are my favorite 40k cc lists ...

Daemonkin CAD - 1849

Juggy Lord -  sigil of corruption -  power fist -  lightning claw - meltabomb
Juggy Lord -  sigil of corruption -  goredrinker -  lightning claw - meltabomb
5 Bloodcrushers - bloodhunter - banner of blood  
3x 8 Cultists
14 Bloodletters - bloodreaper
Heldrakes -  baleflamer
15 Flesh Hounds
3x Soul Grinders - phlegm


You take the best from both codexes with daemonkin to get great benefits at the cost of giving up grimoire and invisibility. In exchange you get blood tithe and fearless and no instability. The juggy lords start with ‘crushers and hounds but can detach and do some serious damage when required.

Next is cc Eldar. Yes, I said that - cc Eldar

The idea here is to build a really strong cc list. No autarch with banshee mask, I know but I did not have the points and he only helps the one squad anyway. Notice to that I'm not using any flyers. This is a pure foot list that has its drawbacks and strengths. I know crimson death is good ... but this list negates all the anti-AA and anti vehicle my opponent brings. He has to instead chew through my troops. I have 65 models on the table - all of which are credible threats.


Footslogging cc  Eldar 1850

Guardian Stormehost (651)
farseer singing spoear spirit stones of anath’lan -120
3x 8 storm guardians, 2 fusion guns, 2 power swords - 216
vyper, dual shuriken cannons - 50
3 vaul’s wrath, D-cannons, warlock, singing spear  205
war walker, dual scatter lasers - 60

Aspect host (510)
10 scorpions, exarch, scorpion’s claw - 210
2x 10 banshees, exarch, executioner - 300

Wraith Construct (295)
wraith knight, wraith cannons

Living legends (390 )
2x avatar - 390


-Weapons upgrades on storm guardians are all free (both fusion and power swords)
-Vypers, vauls and walkers have preferred enemy when shooting at anything within 12” of one of the storm guardian squads
-Everything has guaranteed 6” run
- Aspects have WS5, re-roll failed morale, pinning and fear tests
- Everything within 12” of the avatar has fearless, rage and furious charge
-You have 4 WC plus D6 to cast runes of fate and runes of battle ... this list is about cc not psychic buffs.


Last but not least is cc skitarii with oathsworn detachment

Skitarii Maniple 1010
2x 10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle
2x 3 Sydonian Dragoons  
5 Skitarii Infiltators - Taser Goads - Flechette Pistols - Phase Taser
Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser
Onager Dune Crawler - Icarus Array
 
Oathsworn Detachment: 840
Knight Warden - Melta - Stormshield Rocket Pod  
Knight Paladin - Melta - Stormshield Rocket Pod  

The dunecrawlers flank the knights and the infiltrators distract. You will get the knights in cc. And you will do some damage. And do not discount vanguard in cc either. They buff those cc units well.

At the top of the page is the my Ork cc list
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11014p440-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#top

Just a few notes for you guys:
1) Notice that my seer council wraithlord list is not here despite it being a cc list. Why? Because truly a proper seer council is 2 farseers, baharoth and ten warlocks minimum. Yes, minimum. Adding an extra warlock or eldrad is best. You will see councils over 1000 points and yes they will win games. Now the wraithlords are great for maelstrom btw. But the list could be better.
2) I did not include the thunderwolf deathstar - 2 wolf lords, 3 iron priests, 6 thunder cav, lots of attached cyberwolves and a librarian conclave ( 3 libbies lvl 2 with bikes). It is a very good cc list ... it is also another very expensive deathstar. But you will likely get invisibility at the least and you can even attach some white scars if you like.
3) I did not include a hell-forged hunting pack list. It is at its best too limiting. Nine models is just not enough in maelstrom.
4) None of the lists above are optimized for the new meta. You really should be playing MSU in maelstrom. You need to field as many units as possible against the plethora of alpha strike lists as well so that any unit is easily sacrificed.
5) Deathstars need to be able to multi-assault and bum rush your opponent, they need to be able to detach ICs when required and they need to be very strong in cc. Otherwise you simply lose in maelstorm missions.

Finally to illustrate, Texas Wargamescon had a Nid list that went 4-1 and was the best Nid list there. It had swarm lord, 2 malanthropes, 30 tgants, tervigon and dimachaeron in a cad and an endless swarm formation with 3x20 hgants with toxin and 3x10 tgants. NO FLYERS, folks. This is a pretty amazing GT result with full on cc list. Of course this list excels at most maelstrom missions despite the obvious lack of mobility. Of course lists like these are very mission dependent. Very rock - paper - scissors but draw the right opponents and you can rock.

Feel free to dispute these observations but back it up.

Okay I'm going to post this - let you guys think about it what you would change in it and then perhaps we can update it.

So option ONE

Dark Eldar CAD: 465
Lhamaean,  Venom, Dual Cannons
2x 5 Kabalites, Venom, Dual Cannons
3x Raider, Enhanced Aethersails (Dire Avengers Here)

Dire Avenger Shrine: 390
3 x 10 man Dire Avengers

855

So all the Dire Avengers get BS5 and once a game they have Assault 3. That is 90 shots with bladestrom at 18" ( remember they have battle focus too). These pseudo rending shots will average 12 hits too ( so 12 AP2 aut0-wound shots). Not too shabby. You have six skimmers and you have spent only 855 points. That is pretty cheap for that amount of alpha striking dakka. So what to add? My preference would be more Dark Eldar ...

Now this begs the question - why not just stick those DA either in wave serpents or falcon cloudstrike (no scatter DS). Well in fact wave serpents are superior to raiders in every way. But if you want to play DE then you should play DE. A squad of DA with a wave serpent wioth a chin cannon is 250 points. So you could use them that way and still use a DE CAD without those raiders if you liked. You are adding around 150 points to the list and freeing up your fast attack slots for reavers or razorwings.

Option TWO

Dark Eldar CAD: 720
Lhamaean, Venom, Dual Cannons
2x 5 Kabalites, Venom, Dual Cannons
3x Razorwings, Dark Lances

Dire Avenger Shrine: 750
3 x 10 man Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent , Shuriken Cannon

1470 points

Here we have a very nice base for a list. This has 3 Venoms, 3 Razorwings and 3 Wave Serpents and we still have 380 points to play with.

So is this a true alpha strike list? It could be but their is no guarantee if you go second that you can pull it off. Ninety shots with pseudo rending is nice, serpent shields can fire, all three venoms can fire. Those 380 extra points could be ravagers. You could also drop a razorwing and play a scalpel formation as part of your first turn strike. Lots of options.

So you could torrent down a few units turn one for sure.

Dire Avengers are cool but this would not SEEM like a very effective force. It gets outranged really badly and rushing up into a firing position seems dangerous especially against flamer heavy armies with what are essentially shooty troops that can fight a LITTLE.

I suppose to make this truly work you will need something to keep the enemy honest. something with range, and perhaps some kind of melee elements just to fend off would be assaulters for a precious round.

Hola!,

ETC lists here
Lot's of lists under flags.

The site is in Spanish but lists should be understandable.

And here is some statistics from the event:

Skcuzzlebumm wrote:

Was a little bored and decided to do a quick total of the frequency of Codex representation at this years ETC:

Eldar: 53 *only 3 nations didn't double down!
Necrons: 39
Tau: 36 *of which the majority went Tau/Tau
Chaos Daemons: 35
Space Marines: 35
Imperial Knights: 31
Tyranids: 31
Dark Eldar: 20
Space Wolves: 18 *of which 12 are Champions of Fenris
Grey Knights: 17
Inquisition: 15
Blood Angels: 14 *of which 11 are Flesh Tearers
Astra Militarum: 12
Dark Angels: 12
Chaos Space Marines: 9 *including 7 Be'lakors
Khorne Daemonkin: 8
Officio Assassinorum: 5
Orks: 5
Skitarii: 4
Adepta Sororitas: 2
Legion of the Damned: 2

As a point of interest from the 53 Eldar armies there is a combined total of 944 Scatterbikes!!! That is 699 dead Space Marines a turn!!!

Though maybe what is more shocking is the 27 Windrider Jetbikes that don't have Scatter Lasers... what happened? Did eBay run out?????

Either way lets hear it for GW doing a good job on balance with that codex =D>

There is a reason that 12 champions of fenris lists showed up ...

Company of the Great Wolf - Champions of Fenris

Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Thunderwolf mount - Runic armour - Stormshield - Krakenbone Sword -   Fellclaw’s teeth - 1 Fenrisian Wolf 198

5x Iron Priest: Thunderwolf mount - 4 Cyberwolves 825

6x Thundewolf Cavalry: 6 Stromshields - Powerfist - Thunderhammer 385

Libraian Conclave

4x Librarian: Lvl2 - Bike 440

Analysis:

Analysis:

So we get fear and fearless. We get +1 WS for every thunder wolf. Everyone has T5. There are invulnerable saves everywhere.  

Wolf guard battle leader must accept challenges but he strikes at S6 I5 AP2 with his sword. The fell claw gives him rerolls to hit. He also comes standard with preferred enemy characters. He has 4 attacks on the charge and two wounds.

Just to hammer this home - Iron Priests are ICs and have 4 S10 Ap2 concussive attacks from his thunderhammer followed by a further S10 Ap1 attack from his Servo-arm on top of a S5 hammer of Wrath. 

Librarian Conclave is rolling First on telepathy (for invisibility) After they will roll sanctic (for vortex/sanctuary) and/or telekinesis (for levitation). Depending on who you are facing you might want biomancy (for endurance/life leech) which makes you nigh unkillable. All these powers go off on a 2+.

What is important to note here is that all those ICs (ten in all) can detach and do their own thing. So when facing a skyhammer list you do not need to pool all the resources into one giant deathstar if starting second. If you get first turn you just roll invisibility and take a few casualties and retaliate.

Now it does not like skyhammer, d-scythes etc. It has virtually no AA. But it is tough. It can go head to head with decurion and win the battles. It is really a tough list to defend against. Those eight warp plus D6 charges casting on 2+ opens up a slew of psychic buffs. Just kill any culexus that shows up immediately, lol. Beware though  - you are fieldiing only 37 models on the table. The key is to look at sir unto your wolves over and over again. If you get FNP and invisibility you will be very tough to beat.

I've been reviewing what is being played but also what is winning these days. Space marines are back. They are beating Eldar good as Eldar is. They are making the top tables now. With skyhammer and gladius we will see even more over time.

Tau is your anti everything list now. Here is an example that is winning list ( been played at a few venues with different tweaks ...

Tau Empire Primary CAD - 1146

* XV8 Commander - 202
TL missile pods, Puretide engram chip, Onager gauntlet,  Iridium battlesuit, Drone controller, Vectored retro-thrusters, Target lock
2 Marker drones

* XVi04 Riptide - 195
Positional Relay, Ion accelerator, Twin-linked smart missile system, Early warning override

* XV8 Crisis Team - 189
3x Crisis Suits
Target Lock, Plasma rifle, Flamer
4 Marker drones

* 2x Kroot Carnivore Squad - 190
15 Kroot, Kroot hound

* 2x 1 Tetra Scout Speeder Team - 110
Disruption pod, High intensity markerlight, Homing beacon, Sensor spines, Twin-linked pulse rifles, Targeting Array

* 2x 1 Skyray Missile Defense Gunship - 260
Twin-linked Smart missile system, 6 Seeker missiles, 2 Networked marker lights, Disruption pod, Velocity tracker

Firebase Support Cadre Formation - 703
(Bane of Angels, Tank Hunters)

* XV104 Riptide - 235
Stimulant injector, Heavy burst cannon, Twin-linked fusion blasters, Velocity tracker

* XV88 Broadside Team - 234
3x Broadside Shas'ui
Broadside battlesuit, Twin-linked heavy rail rifle, Twin-linked smart missile system, Early warning override
2 Shield drone

* XV88 Broadside Team - 234
3x Broadside Shas'ui
Broadside battlesuit, Twin-linked heavy rail rifle, Twin-linked smart missile system, Early warning override
2 Shield drone


Yes it is bloody boring. It is the typical Tau wall resurging with the advent of drop pods. No one likes early warning override. It is also has a few tricks - positional relay on a riptide for those kroot as an example.

This is all good. It points to many different lists being able to compete now and no one dominant codex.

So what do you think about 18 Librarians on bikes?