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The Merits of Using Vaul's Wrath Weapon Support Batteries:

So, duck and I were having a discussion about which was better, D-cannons or Vibro-cannons when we realised how under-appreciated vaul's support batteries were in general. So this post is going to discuss use and application of vaul's batteries in general.

First, let's explore exactly what Vaul's batteries are. They are heavy support artillery guns from the eldar codex that come with 2 guardian crew members, and cost a base of 30 points each. Up to 3 may be taken in a single unit, and they have 3 weapon options for each gun. The first two, shadow weavers and vibro cannons, are free. The third, D-cannons, basically double the cost of the gun.

Weapon Options:
(Free)Shadow Weavers - These are 48" S6 AP- small blast barrage shots with rending. Against vehicles or infantry with 2 or lower initiative, they are S7 instead of S6.
(Free)Vibro-Cannons - These are 48" S7 AP4 guns that improve in strength by 1, and AP by 1 for EACH hit beyond the first. That means if all 3 hit a target, all those hits are S9, AP2. They're also pinning.
(25)D-Cannons - These are 24" small blast barrage shots with S10, AP2, and instant death if you roll a 6 to wound.

Before we get into the specific weapon options, for those unfamiliar with the rules for artillery, they're T7, and they make any models or ICs that join their unit T7 against ranged fire as well. The guns all have a 3+ armor save and 2 wounds. So, stock, each of these artillery come with 4 T7 wounds and a 3+ armor save for 30 points.

Now, personally, I believe the entire range is undervalued here, but Shadow Weavers and Vibro-Cannons in particular.

Shadow weavers are just cheap, good indirect fire units. We don't have a lot of indirect fire in either eldar or DE, so they're nice to have. With S7 vs vehicles, and rending blasts vs infantry, they serve both an anti-horde and anti-medium vehicle role well. They're cheap, they're versatile, and don't need any extras to make them effective.

Vibro cannons are a personal favorite of mine, but severely under-appreciated. There is a reason for this. If you just use them stock out of the box, they will perform so-so. They'll average 2 S8 AP3 hits per volley from a unit of 3. That's OK, but certainly not fantastic. It has neither the long range, indirect barrage ability of the shadow weavers, nor the punch of the D-cannons. But when you use them with a farseer, things go differently. The most efficient way to do this is to take 1 farseer and have him get both guide and prescience, since they're both primaris abilities. Then 1 farseer can keep 2 full units of vibro-cannons twin-linked. This virtually ensures that each time they fire, they'll be hitting 3 times for S9, AP2 damage. It makes them tank slayers with 48" range. Often times, I've told people about the merits of vibro cannons, and they only half listened. With it being someone else's idea, they didn't want to fully commit to the vibro cannons. So they took the vibro cannons, but had better ideas for their farseer. Then, afterwards, they lamented taking the vibro cannons because they felt that they under-performed. Don't be that guy. Vibro-cannons should come stock with a farseer to give them twin-linked, or not be taken at all. If you're in a tournament situation with them in a list, you can opt not to put the farseer with the vibro-cannons if your opponent ends up playing a list with little to no AV in it.

D-cannons - I know Duck will disagree with me here, but I'm not so much of a fan of D-cannons. They DO have their advantages. The first being they're S10, and so they ID T5 models. Beyond that, however, their application is debateable. They're heavy guns with no way that I know of to get relentless. So they're either stationary, or they lose the ability to fire for a turn. This is a bit of a problem for them with only 24" range. That said, it's still 24" range on 3 S10 AP2 guns. It CAN create a no-go zone for your opponent's high value models if they don't have ablative wounds. The main problem I see with them is in pricing. For a unit of 3 guns, it's 135 points. For the same price, I could get a Falcon heavy tank with scatter laser and pulse laser. It'd be much more mobile, able to hunt tanks, infantry, and most monsterous creatures with ease, rather than having to wait for the opponent to come within it's range. However, there ARE some things D-cannons would do better against. If I were ever going to field them at all, it would be a single unit of D-cannons placed behind 2 units of twin-linked vibro cannons. I'd use it to deter people from attempting to get into melee with the vibro cannons. I'm sure there are similar uses where one could use D-cannons for area denial, to keep a unit that's vulnerable to melee safe. But overall, unless someone finds a way to give them relentless, or deep strike them without them having to snap fire, I wouldn't reccommend taking these en masse.

Now, some people will inevitably compare what you get here with what you could get in the heavy support slot and ask, "Why? Why take these instead of wraithlords, wraithknights, fire prisms, war walkers, falcons, or dark reapers?"

In a word: Price. The firepower you get compared to the price you spend is simply unmatched anywhere else in the heavy support slot. Can you find something more mobile that puts out more firepower? Sure, maybe, but you're paying for it. Pound for pound, point for point, I think Support Batteries are the best heavy support option in the eldar codex.

Some other people would mention the night spinner as a viable alternative to shadow weavers, while remaining in the same price point. This point has validity, but there are positives and negatives to both sides. The night spinner's doomweaver differs from the shadow weavers in several ways. I will outline them in a positive/negative comparison below:

Positives of Doomweaver:
Is mobile
Is Large Blast
Is Pinning
Has torrent secondary mode

Negatives of Doomweaver:
Arguably easier to kill
Can only land 1 hit per round on vehicles, instead of 3.
Cannot attach ICs to make them T7 vs. shooting

So, as you can see, there are certainly reasons to consider the doomweaver when compared to shadow weavers, but it ultimately depends on what you'd like to do with them.

Wrapping up, I'd like to leave you with a list to consider.

1 Eldar CAD with allied Realspace Raiders Detachment.

HQs:
Farseer w/Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan - Taking prescience & guide.
Succubus w/ Archite Glaive, HWG, Animus Vitae
1 Warlock
Troops:
6x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Shuriken Cannons
2x 10 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders w/ Night Shields & Splinter racks
Fast Attack:
6x 3 Reavers w/Heat Lances & Cluster Caltrops
Heavy Support:
2x 3 Vibro Cannons
1x 3 D-cannons
Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun

The farseer, warlock, and succubus go in one of the vibro-cannon units. Both units are placed close enough together so that the farseer can guide/prescience both units, but not so close together to be good targets for blast templates. On rounds with decent WC rolls, you may also be able to cast conceal on this unit. Either way, both artillery units take cover behind the aegis defense line, with the succubus on the quad gun, with farseer providing backup if the succy has to leave. Near the vibro units, you'd place the D-cannons to discourage units from trying to get too close to your artillery. This trio of units makes up your anvil. It is tough, and takes up a good amount of space near the center of the board for area denial.

The rest of the list is fast bikes and skimmer gunboats to capture and harass. 12 units of Jetbikes(6 with obsec), and 2 gunboats are your hammers. They aren't sledgehammers. They're like those tiny little rockhammers, except they're long range. So you're basically zipping around the map, avoiding direct frontal assaults while laying down tons of shooting.

So, what do you think? Have you implemented Vaul's Batteries in any of your lists? If so, how did you use them?

Thank you Betray- there is an elegance to that list. Both the d-cannons and succubus will deter assaults on your anvil for sure. You have created a very fast list that will excel in maelstrom and rack up points quickly. You have 14 very fast units on the table -let me repeat that 14.

The anvil of the list is actually quite terrifying ... that much dakka hurts. you can sit back and be pummeled by the vibros or move forward and be pummeled by the d-cannons. Just a nice solid list. The hammer and anvil concept has been explored numerous times.

It is similar in concept to but quite different from the list I designed for Tainly.

Dual CAD 1850

St. Celestine:
Cannoness: Sword of Admonition, Plasma Pistol, Rsarius:

4x 5 Battle Sisters: Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Veteran Superior:
2x Immolators: Multi-melta:
2x Immolators: Heavy Flamers:

5 Seraphim: 2 Hand Flamers:

6 Exorcists:

As in Betray's list you have your anvil of six exorcists averaging 21 St10 AP1 missiles a turn - nice. This is backed up by ObSec troops to grab objectives and clear them out - flamers everywhere and a unit that tarpits - hello St. Celestine.
So
21 Missile shots (S10 AP1)
4 Multi-meltas
4 Flamers
6 Flamers

These are quite different approaches to list building but they succeeed because you account for what you can expect to see on the table top.

Go D-Cannons go!

or you could just give the dcannons a WWP and drop them somewhere with a good board sight and hopefully cover and start firing t3 probably

Without relentless that works poorly. You still cannot shift them. This is not like the sentry pylon of doom that necrons have. They do have relentless, they can reposition through a DS, they have split fire. At BAO the lone pylon list made top 16 without Oberon (for the quick reposition). The best way methinks is Oberon/Imotekh (relentless) sentry star.

== Deathstar Necrons ==
Vargard Obyron 160
Imotekh the Stormlord 225
Harbinger of Despair Abyssal Staff Veil of Darkness 60

2x 5 Necron Warriors Night Scythe 330
10 Necron Immortals Tesla 170 (veilteq here)

Tomb Blade TL Tesla Carbine 20 (objective holder/linebreaker)
Heavy Destroyer Heavy Gauss Cannon 60 (same as above with punch)
10 Canoptek Scarabs 150

3 Tomb Spiders - 150 (the scarab farm)
3 Sentry Pylons Focused Death Ray IWND 525
== 1850 ==

• 5 models with 3 wounds each, majority toughness 7, and a 2+/3++ to tank
• 3x S10 AP1 3d6" split fire beams (fired up to 24") that double all hits, which ignore invisibility and jink
• can teleport/deepstrike anywhere on the table, even when locked in combat
- imotekh has lightning storm is quite good, sometimes game changing. He's got the Phaeron rule as  a requirement for the Sentrystar. It's that 4+ Seize the Initiative that puts the fear into my opponents that makes me take him though. You could get a standard phaeeron overlord for 160 points.

Why tesla on immortals? Well we can snapshot after moving now and once the sentry star is in a decent position you have the flexibility to move Imotekh over to join them making them relentless. I like the range and damage output of tesla. They become a threatening force on the table as they stand.

The scarab farm is essential to this list. Sure a Tau list could take out a unit of scarabs quickly but that is okay. It takes the heat off the sentrystar and really you should be going after markerlights and pie plate units anyway early on. Against armies like DE with a lot of transports, against IKS, and against anything that needs tar pitting they are golden additions constantly being replenshed.

The rules for sentry pylons are in IA:13 The Fall of Orpheus book, btw.

As long as this unit is deployed on the table, come movement phase turn 1, Obyron can deep strike them from your side of the table directly into your opponent's deployment zone. The pylons can then start drawing lines over anything within their death bubble. If anything is castled/parking lot, these lines are going to be devastating.

But much like Betray's list, artillery needs supprot. They cannot be the only threat on the table or focused foire, drop pod atacks, etc., will get to them. Habe a plan B always. In the list above you see a scarab farm and a unit of gating immortals.

So really no comparison. What is evident though is that support batteries (be it necron , ork, nid or eldar can cause you some problems.

AND FINALLY

At BAO FW was present but did not win the tournament. I agree that is is powerful but lets put it in perspective please. The one list using sentry pylons placed 16th. There are a slew of powerful deathstars out there that do not use FW too. Now I think the sentrystar is extremely difficult to defend against. Doubly so with DE as poison will not work - sentry pylons can still shoot without crew - yes - a necron silly rule of canoptek artillery.

So I got to watch Nids tear apart a Tau list last night ...


Primary CAD: 940

2x Flyrant - Wings, 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs 480

3 Pyrovores 120
Malanthrope 85
Zoanthrope 50

2x 3 Rippers - Deepstrike 90
Mucolid Spore 15

Tyrannocyte - 5 Venom Cannons 100

Formation Skyblight: 909

Flyrant - Wings, 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs 240

3x 13 Gargoyle 234
2x Harpy - TL-Heavy Venom Cannon 280
Hive Crone  155

Six FMCs and pod dropping pyrovoes and zoanthrope, lol ... pretty much a list to hurt Tau badly and quicky. His two Riptides and all his skyfire/interceptor did not help - especially when these guys roll catalyst/horror. Skyblight is a bit broken anyway. The inclusion of malanthropes, which, btw, can do damage in cc if they get there and a tyrannocytes really up the game for Nids. A month ago you would have never seen a pyrovore squad, lol. Mucolid spore clusters are not likely to do much but if you get that S8 blast off - well why not. And it is shrouded at least (albeit it has no regular save, lol). Even if it just draws fire away for one unit it has done its job for a mere 15 pts.

Skyblight is as close to broken as Nid formations get. Having a unit that cannot be contested simply wins missions. Especially units that resurrect on a 4+. So the list caused problems for the poor Tau guy and knowing that I will be playing Tau as my main army this did not make me happy).

Isn't skyblights contest rule a normal ObSec?

That's a list to fear. Played once against very similar with my DE and lost badly.

It says that objective secure gives the gargoyles control, even when troops are on the objective. BUT... if they're not troops, ie if they're fact attack or elites, then they can contest (but not control) the objective. This is quite different from normal ObSec rules. There is some debate that even if they are not troops Gargs would still control the objective but most tournaments lean towards my first interpretation.

This means if you have your troops sitting on an objective, the gargs can swoop in and steal it. Very powerful.

I have a game tonight against my usual guy in town. We are playing 2k, not sure what he will be rocking. However this is what I will try (for my first 7th edition DE game!)

Archon (wwp, shadowfield, agoniser)

2x 5 warriors (blaster) in dual cannon venoms
10 warriors (SC) in boat (nightshields)

2x 5 scourges (4 heat lances)
Razorwing (no upgrades)

Voidraven bomber (no upgrades)

Dark Artisan Formation
-Haemie (scissorhand, panacea perverted, wwp), Talos (inchor injector), Cronos (probe)

Grotesquerie
Urien, 3 grots, 5 grots

Bastion (comms relay)



Wish me luck!

egorey wrote:

It says that objective secure gives the gargoyles control, even when troops are on the objective. BUT... if they're not troops, ie if they're fact attack or elites, then they can contest (but not control) the objective. This is quite different from normal ObSec rules. There is some debate that even if they are not troops Gargs would still control the objective but most tournaments lean towards my first interpretation.

This means if you have your troops sitting on an objective, the gargs can swoop in and steal it. Very powerful.

That's kind of a pile of bull Schneike. This and many more reasons why i just shake my head at times.

As for Tau, this is where minimal deployment pays dividends. Drop pods and other such armies dislike having no targets. It just depends on if the Tau army COULD get behind them. An army that isn't very mobile kinda gets pinned in.

So let us finish or discussion on broken builds and units. Below is a list that really abuses. We need to take the focus off the C'Tan for a turn or two so we put some immortals and sentry pylons forward (DSing from the table top) while he moves at a pretty decent clip (18"). On tune two - if immortals are sticking around have the HQs join them - canoptik artillery fires without crew). I have previously discussed sentry pylons - well they are a very good little deathtstar. The two HQs are also pretty formidable in assault.

Necron Bonus List

Obyron - 160
Imotekh - 225

Harbinger of Despair - Abyssal Staff, Veil of Darkness 70

2x 5 Warriors 130
8 Immortals - 136

Tomb Blade - 35

2 Sentry Pylons 350
Transcendent C'Tan - Transliminal Slide - @ Wave of Withering - 780

The C'Tan is a T9 GMC with 6 wounds and 3+/4++ saves that's small enough to hide and can dual wield D strength hellstorm templates. Take Transliminal stride and the thing moves 18" per turn while screwing over anything in its path with strength D hits. The FNP on top of the save is crazy.

Statistically it'll take 36 lascannon hits to take it down and it gives zero f**ks about poison or snipers. In h2h it has WS6 A8 S9 AP2 I 5 and d3 stomp attacks, meaning it assault just about anything you care to throw its way in melee. The wave of withering is a strength D Hellstorm AP1template. Hellstorm + Slide gives you roughly a 34" inch threat range. Now some feel the C'Tan is priced high enough tom be fair on the table top.

There are those that feel that 780 points makes the C'Tan a fair inclusion. It can be killed if you focus your whole army against it after all - but it is small and easy to hide, lol. Did I mention that? Non-the-less if allowed at your tournament and you are playing DE you are f***.

Oh yes - and Tau this.

Well...that game didn't go so well...I tried null deployment for the first time (definitely shouldn't have against this army, but I wanted to see what would happen).

What did I play against? Something I think the duck would have loved to have played since its low model count.

Draigo
librarian
5 termies
3 dreadknights with various wargear
tiggy
6 centurions with grav
2x 5 scouts in land speeder storms


I started with my bastion with 3 grots inside and a boat with warriors behind that almost at the edge of my board. We played BAO mission #4: the scouring. Turn1 he shunts up 1 knight to the bastion and gates the cents, tiggy and librarian next to it as well and lay into it for 2 turns leaving only 1 grot alive with 1 wound...losing that comms relay was bad. T2 I only got in the 2 formations, voidraven, and 1 scourge squad. Scourge squad did work on a land speeder, voidraven stripped a point off the shunted knight with a bomb.

He responds by gating closer to all the goods that dropped close to each other. Draigo and company shot up the talos/haemie/cronos and I manged to only lose the cronos...pretty surprised I saved that many...but losing that 4+ fnp hurt. Despite all the poison, archon and urien, a single freaking dreadknight assaulted my grots and within a few turns wiped them out...damn S10 punches hurt.

It all went downhill quickly...shunting dreadknights and gating super squad were able to nullify my deployment options...storms were dangerous anti-deepstrike units so I couldn't easily land where I wanted to. Agaisnt a slower army I would have done better, but there was just too little I could do when I came in piecemeal.

The big problem with a 3 DK list is that you really need spammed lances to compete. You did not have near enough. Also your deployment was questionable - no offense. There was no reason to " drop all the goods close to each other".

Now you mention he had anti-DS units. Not really. And you had flyers that should have helped as he little defense against them as well. Again though - those flyers (especially void raven) are great at AI - unfortunately you were facing very durable units.

Now admittedly it hard to visualize the game as you have described it. I don't know what psychic powers he was rolling for one. But the list looks like one big deathstar and 3 knights against a whole DE army. Your list unfortunately has litle speed or mobility. Just the flyers, a boat and a venom. That is an issue.

WWPs can be a bit of a trap. You give up your venoms and raiders to get them. Once you drop you are left hanging. Meh, it is just one game and you need to learn your list. Don't take to heart. Often i find my first games with new lists quite challenging until I get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of it.

Like I said it was really testing the waters with a new idea. I never even bothered shooting at the deathstar, my game plan was to knock out everything else. Problem came down to not bringing in all my reserves in a timely manner. Also the grot bomb and talos combo need to come down near each other if you want to survive, they feed each other bonuses that stack immensely...that was the core purpose for the list. Beyond reserves, the list doesn't aim to be overly mobile. My voidraven was near useless due to lack of tanks to shoot, razorwing came in T4 so didn't get to do much. I did kill 1 knight with a single venom and squad in one turn but it was too little too late. Had I played more normally, I think I would have done better...that gating squad though can take out what it pleases pretty much...the best way to beat it is to force it to gate around...make it take that risk.

My list wasn't meant to be overly competitive just trying something new for sure.

ligolski wrote:

Like I said it was really testing the waters with a new idea. I never even bothered shooting at the deathstar, my game plan was to knock out everything else. Problem came down to not bringing in all my reserves in a timely manner. Also the grot bomb and talos combo need to come down near each other if you want to survive, they feed each other bonuses that stack immensely...that was the core purpose for the list. Beyond reserves, the list doesn't aim to be overly mobile. My voidraven was near useless due to lack of tanks to shoot, razorwing came in T4 so didn't get to do much. I did kill 1 knight with a single venom and squad in one turn but it was too little too late. Had I played more normally, I think I would have done better...that gating squad though can take out what it pleases pretty much...the best way to beat it is to force it to gate around...make it take that risk.

My list wasn't meant to be overly competitive just trying something new for sure.

Hey congratz on trying it. There's an art to null deployment for sure. He had nice mobility and it sounds like you only had one lure? Remember that you need two lures for Null Deployment, spread as far apart as terrain will allow. Did you say what the second lure was? It sounds like they were in the same spot?

Fear the duck ... from thesaltedwound

egorey wrote:

WWPs can be a bit of a trap. You give up your venoms and raiders to get them. Once you drop you are left hanging.

This is debateable. While I'm not trying to hash out the argument again here, as it has it's own thread, suffice to say that many people are still playing that the WWP fully works for your transport as well.

That being said, even if you aren't, you could potentially ally some eldar with your WWP for some non-scatter gate of infinity shenanigans.

But I do agree that WWPs can be a trap. At 35 points, they're definitely something that should be weighed to determine if it's truly worth it.

To be more specific, to make sure whether the use of them in the list makes tactical sense against a large field of opponents. I know plenty of Tau generals who wouldnt know WHAT to do outside of a gunline for example, and so playing anything else, for them, would be a waste of THEIR time. Webway Portals are kinda the same thing. Generals who don't have the mind for that kind of strategem should avoid wasting the points. Because its not just worrying about when they will come in but its having Plans B and C in the meantime if they dont. Takes some knoodling.

So there is a lot of hype now with all the new Nid units. Yet the list that won at the 11th company tournament was completely 'outside the box. It went 6-0. Sean Nayden was the general.

Primary CAD
HQ: 2 Flyrants - 2 TL Brainleach Devourers - Egrubs 480
Elite: 3 Lictors 150
Troop: 3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike 45
Troop: 3x 5 Genestealers  210
FA: 2x 5 Spore Mines 50
FA: 4 Spore Mines 20
HS: 3 Mawloc 420
Fortification: Bastion - Comms Relay 95

Death Leaper Assassin Formation
Death Leaper
5 Lictors

It is very easy to overlook this list. Lictors can move and they can do damage (S6 will kill a lot of units especially with rending). Of course they are also calling in Mawlocs etc. The list yses all the tricks - infiltrate/DS/outflank. But still a surprise to go 6-0 at a decent venue, no?

I love this list. It gets wherever it needs to go. Wave Spam cant hide. No one can hide. The Flyrants are probably hanging out round 1 and then fly into action, saturating enemies with SO MUCH all at once. It literally does the same thing as My Chaos Space Marines only it uses different units to do it. But it is in essence and in every important way the same. totally overwhelm enemy fire power in round 2, engage round 3 and tear people apart. Mawlocs are going to0 mop some suckas up too.

Dang fine list. NO problem seeing how it works and if forced to plan B...Who cares? It THRIVES on plan B.

Against an alpha strike army I imagine you just place a few infiltrators here and there and something in the bastion - leave Fyrants in reserve ...

Now in case you did not nptice who played it - it was OrdoSean of beastpack fame. One of our own DE players. Thee were only 50-60 guys at the tournament but my understanding is he played against this ...
Round one: Chaos Space Marines: Abbadon, 8 khorne bezerkers in a landraider, 2x 10 chaos marines in rhinos, 7 plague marines in a rhino, 2 nurgle oblits, 3 nurgle oblits.

Round 2: Clan Rauuken: Chapter master on bike with shield, 5 bikes with grav and multimelta, 10 marines in pod melta, 10 marines in rhino plasma, 5 scouts in storm, 5 scouts in storm, thunderfire, predator 3 lascannons, stalker? 4 shots str 7 skyfire, Imperial knight ally

Round 3: Tau: Buff commander 2 marker drones drone controller, ethereal, 10 kroot, 10 kroot, 3 suits with 2 missile pods target lock and 6 marker drones, 2 suits dual fusion, 2 suits dual fusion, Skyray, Skyray, Firebase Support Cadre formation - Riptide ion intercept skyfire, 3 broadsides missiles target lock 6 missile drones, 3 broadsides missiles target lock 6 missile drones

Round 4: Space wolve/IG: 2 rune priests, 2 Iron priests on wolves, 2 5 man grey hunters in pods with melta, 3 empty pods, company command with 4 melta plasma pistol, priest, 2 psykers, platoon command with flamers, 3 platoons with lascannons in 3 chimeras, special weapons team with 3 melta flamer plasma pistol, 50 consripts, squad of 2 wyvrens.

Round 5: White Scars/Space wolves detachment thingy: Khan, 5 bike squads some melta some grav, scout bikers, 2 storm talons, 2 wolf guard battle leaders on thunder wolves, 2 iron priests on wolves, 2 servitors

Round 6: Dark Eldar: Urien and 2 4 man grotesques in raiders from the coven book, Succubus, 2 units of trueborn with 4 blasters in venoms, 4 units of warriors with blaster and haywire sergeant in venoms, 2 Ravagers
...

So he seems to have not played against a lot of Knights and a lot of Eldar. However, in conversation with Sean he had prepared for both and felt he could handle either.

hmm... well I mean he obviously had the perfect list for that bunch. Rend rend rend rend rend. Rend.

Rend.

Rend rend rend rend rend rend.

Rend.

Some rending.

Lol

Now that is funny J. I asked OrdoSean what his plan would be had he encountered IKs or Wave Spam - his reply ...

Roll a lot of 6s. Now we know that is a bit offhand, lol. Against Wave Serpents you null deploy of course. If there is terrain and you hide your Flyrants behind it great. If not purt infiltrators behind BLOS. Put a Lictor on the bastion or behind it. You have a comms relay so ... you want the Lictors in thr back arc of the serpents - remember they shoot those flesh hooks. The Serpents will have to jink and will probably want to turn to face those Lictors next turn. If they do not turn you assault. Now taking out the Lictors will not easy. They are in cover with stealth. Also if the opponent decides to disembark his DA - well bring on the Mawlocs. It is win/win with good positioning. Turn two you have Lictors assaulting - maybe Stealers, Mawlocs dropping or staying an extra turn in reserve (Comms Relay - depends whether he decides to disembark turn two). You get the picture ... Flyrants - if he has been jinking can now take out those Serpents. You get the picture.

Admantine Lance is again about positioning. You want to block movement with Lictors - he does not want to assault them singly really. You can also block with Flyrant bases. Here you are trying to split up those Lances and herd them. The rest of your list can deal with the support units he brings. He has spent enough on the Admantine Lances that it should be easy to Mawloc and dakka and assault them down. You should have way more units and score a lot more points. Later in the game  -once you have whittled some HPS off the Lances you can bait them with Fyrants - D3 Electroshock Grubs haywire and a smash attack. Take 'em out one at a time  -so attack from opposite sides with Fyrants. Not easy but doable.

Now an overlooked gem in this list is the spore mines. They can block movement very well and also herd your opponents forces. Who wants to waste a units shots on a 25 point squad? They can evn surround IKS, lol. Now having heard SEan's comments on the list I expect his next change will be to add Mucolids. They were not available for this tournament but obviously they are a perfect fit.

I think OrdoSean would have handled those lists had he faced them - there were a few. He had the biggest advantage - a list no one prepared for. That is huge when playing at a tournament. He prepared for their lists. Of course, you need bear in mind that OrdoSean is a brilliant general. He is a seasoned tournament player. I have doubts as to whether I could have pulled off a 6-0 record, lol.

Non-the-less - kudos to Sean on a great tournament and a fantastic list. I love it.

Onwards and upwards  ... here is a list that I really like and is not cheesy ... much like OrdoSean's Nid list. Just a bit out of the box.

Primary CAD Necrons
HQ: Necron Overlord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs Sempiternal Weave - Catacomb Command Barge - Gauss Cannon
TR: 2x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe  
FA: Tomb Blade
HS: Doomsday Ark

Dark Harvest Maynarkh Necrons CAD
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Sempiternal Weave - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb  
TR: 2x 20 Flayed One Pack, Flensing Scarabs
HS: 2x Anihilation Barge

The Flayed DS with D-lords and get preferred enemy and shred first assault. Flayed Ones are troops.
Maynarkh Necrons and Necrons are allies of convenience - yep. Fancy that. So both D-lords have to be Maynarkh. That is okay - I like me a CCB Overlord anyway.

Just deploy your ark and barges at the start of the game. So agaiun we have a list relying heavily on null deployment. Are you guys getting the picture? Null deployment might be the single most powerful strategy in 40k. Learn it and use it.

Yeah I cannot agree more here, with pretty much everything you said Egorey (AKA DuckofDeath). Primo. I just abso-freaking-lutely love this kind of list and cannot even contain my exuberance over the fact that it won.

Gosh darn it, that just would have been fun as hell to watch.

Yep. Against the Chaos list and the Tau list he pretty much tabled them by turn four because of the damage Mawlocs do. TTFD mishaps are actaully useful in this list as you get to come back the next turn! Just a small overlooked nuance. Also Lictors are bloody fast. People tend to forget they have hit and run. This allows them to reposition at a very good clip. They are I6. Pasing is not a problem. Jumping around 3D6 is awesome. It also allows a great reposition for those Mawlocs. This is a list that needs to be played and understood. I know it would take me more than a game or two to fully utilize all the inherent trickery in the build.

On another note I will say this again. Looking at tournament results can be quite misleading. Many of the top players at BAO and Nova played Eldar or deathstars lists. Quite a few had IKS. So lists like Sean's played by a general with less talent would have a rough outing. These 'out of the box' lists need competent players to succeed and the best players at larger venues tend to field established prototypes and hence the results. Some might remember the plague drone build that won a while back. It also had a good general.


THE OVERLOOKED UNITS SYNDROME

So this brings me to overlooked units in codexes - I will start with ORKS - I hope others will follow with different codexes. It is apparant that we do not always see the portential in certain units.

Stormboyz with Nob PK PB - on the WAAAGH for 12' + 2d6' + 2d6' with 'ere we go. That's 24-27' reliable charge range which is ~7' longer than biker's
Artillery - Lobbas ZZaps Tractor beams - Orks have the best customizable artillery in the game. Believe it
Grots in a trukk - a piece of movable impassible terrain with 10 S3 guns, a S4 gun, a rokkit on the trukk, the unit as a whole requires 2 enemy units to kill it, the guys inside are objective secured, it can move up to 24" and costs just 65 points
Flashgitz in a trukk - move them central fast. they can roll AP1-AP2 and and destroy a unit. They are deadly on overwatch too Even if you just get 3 S% shots each and not the AP bonus they are effective.

GUYS THIS IS A CHALLENGE - FIND ME THOSE UNITS