A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

I personally armed them normally. I feel that Reanimation Protocols are "good enough" survivabiltity and defense on the Praetorians who are already tougher and faster (and thus in the open less of the time) than your average bear. Their AP is great and at STR 5, against vehicles? Not to mention of course normal victims.

3 attacks on the charge is plenty. You don't want to destroy people on the charge as a rule (unless an objective is the reason you charged of course). I think they are well balanced the way they are.

My respect for Aerial attackers has grown by leaps and bounds and this list takes NO chances, arming the list not just with good firepower but with a LOT of anti-air ability. The Aegis will ignore Jinking thanks to its handy inexpensive and hard to kill crew. The Obelisk will force FMC's into the ground eventually and even if it doesn't, the threat of it is enough to influence enemy decisions. And of course a pair of Night Scythes will help the cause as well. FMC's are a REAL threat and you need to respect the hell out of them if you want to play with the big boys. Alternately if you ARE the aerial problem and they dont commit enough to anti-air, then you have created a mismatch, the very one you're defending against with this build.

The Destroyer Lord really can make one of those units of Praetorians meaner yet granting Preferred Enemy to them, but he mostly is just there to be attached and then probably separate later on to burninate a village with the epic flamer that Necrons have access to (STR 7 AP 2? Are you kidding me?). My gut tells me that Nemesor Zhandrekh is probably an excellent choice for this army as well and I would be very tempted to put him in the Destroyer Lords place because he can be your reserve manipulation which is important for this list. As much as I want the anti-air, the Aegis could be converted to a comms relay if reserves were becoming problematic.

So the army has some changes you can make to it for sure. But it does look like fun to me.

A few notes ---
Deployment can be interesting here. Which units do you DS? What do you bring through the Monolith? What units start on the table? So many nuances. Dangerous terrain also reduces FMC initiative when they attack to 1. Tomb blade with nebuloscope negates jink. Praetorians take a DT - night scythe that they could but will not embark, lol. If you add the flayed ones the D-lord can detach from a Praetorian unit and join them if needed.
I would be interested to hear your plan of attack and deployment perspectives. Obviously an opponent will dictate whether you want most of your force as a null deployment list.

CAD
185pts Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator)
130pts 10 Warriors
130pts 10 Warriors
100pts Aegis Defense Line (Quad Gun)
58pts 3 Tomb Blades (1x Nebuloscope and 2 Shadowlooms)
280pts 10 Triarch Praetorians
130pts Night Scythe
280pts 10 Triarch Praetorians
130pts Night Scythe


Living Tomb:
300pts 1 Obelisk
200pts 1 Monolith

Well I'll avoid the pat answer which is that it depends on the enemy.

One unit of Necron Warriors in absolute cover and spread out in a wide circle makes the most sense, as far away as possible from the enemy. and the Tomb Blades manning the wall.

The Monolith will deploy two units on the round it comes in. I'm thinking Triarch Praetorians and Warriors obviously. The Warriors need to be assured of an upfield position in case the Monolith is blown up whereas the second unit of Triarch Praetorians can catch up if they need to with raw speed.

The last unit of Necron Warriors will be in the Night Scythes or in reserves, again depending on what makes the most sense for that game.

Problems i forsee as presented ...

You want to be in cc as fast as possible. Using Living Tomb the Obelisk comes down turn two ( after scatter and it is big). The you 'might' get the Monolith. If you do you will only get a guaranteed one unit through it (not two). A lot of variables here for a no scatter Monolith and one unit of either praetorians or warriors. I could be waiting until turn three to get a anything decent off.

I could as easily place the Monolith and Obelisk on the table turn one and have them move 6" turn two. I can start the praetorians with d-lord behind these for out of LoS cover or just look for decent cover. Then on turn two I'll roll the same for reserves ... either the praetorians and warriors will arrive through the Lith or not. Either way I'm near center table and a possible charge turn two with praets that started and the flayed ones ( if I added those). My d-lord can even detach and charge something too.

Now by starting everything on the table other than the warriors by turn three I should have both praetorian squads attacking, the flayed ones and the d-lord. My Lith and Obelisk will be at center table too covering the board. Then my warriors can pop through the Lith from reserves ( assuming none arrived turn two ) or from the table ( if there is one behind the aegis you want to move forward ).

Sure.  Try it and see how it works.  You only go first 50% of the time and that can be time spent killing the Monolith unfortunately.  For my money, make the Necron invasion inevitable and allow the Monolith its time to shine for as long as it can because clearly hiding behind it makes IT the target of the enemies desires by default really.  If they have scourges that hop up, or a Corpsethief Claw...  Could end badly.

But its not a wrong way to do it.  i was asked on short notice for an idea on how to make it work and this was my attempt.  I did note there were some areas to ponder changes and Im sure some testing would resolve the question.

Any thoughts on the Necron deathstar I presented? It is a curioys thing and would love input.

Orikan, Vargard, Overlord with staff of light and lychguard with shields is cool, but you will need a way to make it mobile.  Vargard does handle that problem initially.  

Orikan makes Vargard extremely hard to kill.  He's the new Corbulo basically.  2+ save, re-rolling ones, FOLLOWED by a 4+ Reanimation Protocol?  Well that's pretty darn good.  And if you can get Enduring Will on him as a Warlord Trait, twice as glorious.

The Overlord is I assume there to make up for the loss of AP 2 you suffered when you selected Dispersion Shields for the Lychguard.  The Staff of Tomorrow on Orikan and the Overlord is enough AP 2 for the unit anyways.

I consider this a really well thought out way to use Lychguard.  I like it a lot.  Vargard can get them to a trouble spot and defend them even against stiff shooting before they launch their assault.

345 points worth of characters hurts my feelings. But it's absolutely an excellent use of 345 points worth of characters in my opinion.

I had been slowly moving away from deathstars and then ... I found one that I like playing. So yours is not too bad albeit a tad expensive. You are investing a lot of points in HQs even if they are powerful - but it could work yes.

The one I use is a bit cheaper ... 470 points total and I feel that pushes the limits ...
It is 3 MCs (castallax) infiltrating or outflanking with a tanking IC ( praevian) and fleet on the unit. They put out a fair bit of firepower as well having mauler cannons and flamers ... 3x 24", s6, AP3, heavy 3, pinning wepons, a volkite charger which is 15" S5 assault 2 deflagrate (extra hit for each wound) and four flamers. Now I would use my MCs regardless so I feel I'm okay with that type of mini-deathstar. I also need an HQ regardless for my allies so I'm okay putting him with the MCs. This way the squad also gets prefered enemy - yep if the praevian hits you get it on the castallax.

I actually had a typo in that deathstar...making it a little more expensive but the Overlord is actually there to use a Solar Staff in order to use the Solar Pulse rule to make the unit essentially have invisibility for the turn they decide to deep strike to a different spot on the board...making them even harder to kill before they move in! I will admit its super pricey points wise as a whole, but could be good fun...lots of deathstars can be expensive.


Those castallaxes sound like a ton of fun duck!

So my take on your list J:

FORMATION FUN

DESTROYER CULT: 675
Destroyer Lord (Voidreaper, Phylactery, Phase Shifter, Nightmare Shroud) 215
3 Destroyers 120
3 Destroyers 120
3 Destroyers 120
2 Heavy Destroyers 100

JUDICATOR BATTALION: 822
2 Triarch Stalkers (Heat Rays) 250
7 Triarch Praetorians (Rod of Covenant) 156
1 Night Scythe 130
7 Triarch Praetorians (Rod of Covenant) 156
1 Night Scythe 130

LIVING TOMB: 500
1 Monolith 200
1 Obelisk 300

So admittedly I have no ObSec here. But if you want to come on turn three and lay a beatdown - well this list can do it. Triarch Salker I feel is almost a must for the list. Now, IMHO, Judicar Battalion and Destroyer Cult are two of the best Necron formations when used in the same list.

The D-Lord is T6, 3 wounds, 2+/4++/5+++ and IWND. You can kill him but good luck. The Stalkers make the list though. Now the all your weapons become a threat in this list.

The Judicator formation can  re-roll to-hit, to-wound and to-pen one unit the Stalker can see. ThePraetorians can move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain testsand take no penalties when charging. Sweet.

The Destroyer formation lets my bD’lord reroll his traits and the destroyers re-roll to wound and to pen and they have preferred enemy. Makes the heavy destroyers pretty good for AT.  

Voidreaper is a weapon that a D-lord has always needed. C’mon - master-crafted. The flesh bane is nice but it generally wounds everything anyway except MCs. Oh yes. The D-lord can go MC or tank hunting now.

With this list - even wihout reserve manipulation - I feel that it can indeed make good use of the Living Tomb formation - the Obelisk is coming on turn two and the Night Scythes and Praets can join the fun once the Monolith hits the table.

Its really not a CC based list though at this point. Its a definite hybrid. Not that its a bad thing, but it wasnt really what you asked me for. =)

As for this list, I had considered a Judicator Battallion actually but then stopped myself and thought "a lot of tournies are allowing 1+1, but not three Formations" so i didn't do it. But i definitely liked the idea as well.

In fact in terms of cc power the list compare favorably. I have six less praets but I do have two stalkers. I also have a better tooled out D-lord. So ...
Yes the three formations can be a bit much. That is really the biggest issue. If allowed I like the list as it has decent AT, AI and some AA.

So let us look at what has entered the meta and is currently causing problems on the European scene. The deathstar died a bit of late but one is now doing very well at tournments. It is the wolfstar. You can play it with SoB or SM allies to get hit and run shenanigans or you can play it tough with a Imperial Knight ally. Here is what we are talking about:

 Wolfstar: Champions of Fenris / Champions of Grimnar Detachment
- Thunderwolves and WGBL get +1 WS and better warlord traits. Thunderwolf Cavalry leaders get preferred enemy in challenges and must challenge. You need two troops and two elites for the requirements.

2x
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: 181pts
Thunder Wolf, Powerfist, Storm Shield, Runic Armour
2x
Iron Priest: 165pts
Thunderwolf Mount, 4 Cyber Wolves
3 Thunderwolves 230pts
2 SS, 2 PF, Leader dual wolf claws
this is the wolfstar - every unit can split off once it is down table and charge a different target if required

2x
5 Blood Claws: 60pts
Stormwolf: 235pts
Twin linked Multi-Meltas upgrade
these are your mandatory troops but you want those stormwolf transports regardless to drop in youe ObSec troops and maybe take out the other guys flyers/FMCs

Allied IK
Imperial Knight Errant: 370pts
need I say more on this?
0r Allied SoB
ST. Celestine 135pts
5 Battle Sisters 60pts
Aegis Defense Line Quad Autocannons 100pts

This list is brutal in many ways and in various forms is eating up the meta now in Europe. The meat of list though is your wolfstar. You have 4 characters that are AP2 that can at anyt time split from the star and strike on their own. You have a ton of ablative wounds with the cyber wolves. You cannot underestimate 2+ save units with S10 AP2 weaponry.

The stormwolf transports are among the best in the game coming in from reserve turn two or three when your wolfstar is striking and detaching. Your Knight Errant is just icing on the cake of an already very hard and tough list.

Now the above list is as close to field and play as you get for a tournament. Sure their are a few tricks and nuances. But I've kept it simple by eliminating any allies but an IK and they are easy enough to field and use. You just want to get down table and detach parts of the wolfstar as needed. The IK will be a distraction and take some heat off the wolfstar. The stomwolves coming in from reserves will add that extra element to grab and secure objectives when your opponent is busy dealing with the heavy hitters.

The option with St. Celestine gets the unit hit and run and another tanking HQ - it also provides another AA option as FMCs are the bane of this list - quad autocannons hurt skimmers too. Now hit and run is quite useful with deathstar. The extra movement can place it where you really want it and prevents an opponent tar pitting it. It is a popular option.

So you are DE. You are thinking - well that list has no dakka and has to catch me. I have poison. I have grots to send at that wolfstar. Well, that is all and good. But the star has enough speed to catch your skimmers and the grots will lose combat. The star has exceptional saves and ablative wounds. I'm not saying you cannot beat it with DE. But if you plan on taking DE to a tournament you might want to test your list against this first. It is appearing more regularly on the scene.

Now some of the lists that won in England - there wee a few - used white scars for scout. This is tricked out quite differently from the lists above. I'm not going to go into detail but you can work on that yourselves.

There is a thread here where we can discuss options to defeat the deathstar

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11802-how-does-de-handle-the-wolfstar

Force wounds, kill ablative wounds (should be easy with DE), and then lance the thing to death. All 3++ fails eventually.

HERO wrote:

Force wounds, kill ablative wounds (should be easy with DE), and then lance the thing to death.  All 3++ fails eventually.

Thunderwolves are T5, so not sure what lances bring over poison in this particular case.

The star is T5. It can have up to 16 ablative wounds ( the example has 8 I know) and it can tank a number of wounds easily as well. Don't underestimate 2+/3++ multi-wound models. You will likely get two turns max before the star is in cc with as well. So forcing wounds  - yes - a good plan. But not easy to accomplish. Your deployment and tactics will determine your success more. Null deployment, movement, focusing on the mission - all can help lead to a win.

Now each priest in the star can detach with his 4 wolves and form a separate unit that puts out 5 WS5 S10 ap1 and 16 WS4 S4 attacks on the charge - unless you rule TWC are S9. This is pretty good TBH. But they can be beat by flying around them and if you consistently pour enough dakka into them. Daemons give the wolfstar fits. Eldar are a decent match up with nine hornet lists ( you might have seen mine posted). It can be beat at major venues becuase Nids, Necrons, Eldar and Daemons are going to give it a fight.

Is there anything resilient and quick that DE like though? When DE lose their speed advantage, and when the other side can win an attrition game, you really have to be on the A game.

We were discussing Corpesthief Claw in chat. I was queried as to how I might a design a list. So how do we make a list with this? Remeber these guys have Freakish Spectacle and Let the Harvest Begin - 1 VP for any non-vehicle unit they destroy.

ELDAR: 653
1x farseer, Runes of Witnessing, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan 155
3x Warlock 105
3x 3 Jetbikes 153
Wraithknight, 2 Wraithcannons 240

LORD OF WAR: 430:
Lynx, Pulsar, Scatter Laser 430

FORTIFICATION: 100
Void Shield Generator, 3 Shields

CORPESTHIEF CLAW: 665
5 Talos, Haywire Blasters, 4 Ichor Injectors

This list can be nasty. You want to buff those Talos with psychic powers from your seer/warlock OR you can take your chances and spawn daemons - depends on who you are up against. With a Farseer and three warlocks you have the die to spawn each turn. Either way the Talos protect the Lynx which will got to town. Why the WK? Well, the one thing Nids and FMCs do not want to take on generally is a WK. You could use a landing pad in the list but I chose to go with a void shield generator.

Now Ichor Injectors just make the Talos scary. You really do not want to attack them - even IKs have to be wary when they are kitted out like that (meaning haywires). You can also start the Talos in reserve with your bikes ... outflanking Talos are nasty ... and never mind reserve manipulation ... you can wait on them. When they come in they will really be a distraction and a problem.

egorey wrote:

Now Ichor Injectors just make the Talos scary. You really do not want to attack them - even IKs have to be wary when they are kitted out like that.

This made me curious. Ichor Injectors give Fleshbane and ID on a 6, neither of which are of the slightest concern to IKs.

It's what you get when you write these lists late at night, lol. No Ichor does not help there - it is for MCs etc. I wrote that poorly. The five Talos are still scary to IKs because of the haywire of course. And they have smash attacks too. Now a lance formation is just tough. You might want to spawn some daemons ( a farseer kitted out as above is an excellent daemon summoner) and slow em down while you set up to shoot the bejeesus out of 'em.

As an aside the following list won a tournament in Europe (I'll let you figure out where) ...

White Scars Combined Arms Detachment:  1070
Kor’sarro Khan: Moondrakkan
Chapter Master: Shield Eternal, Bike, Artificer Armor, Thunderhammer,
2x 5x Space Marine Biker: Combi Weapon, 2x Gravgun
5x Space Marine Biker: Combi Weapon, 2x Meltagun
2x Stalker
Thunderfire Cannon

Champions of Fenris Detachment: 795
Rune Priest: Bike, Lvl 2, Runic Armour, Runic Axe, Wolftooth Necklace, Melta bombs
3x Iron Priest on Thunderwolf
6x Thunderwolf: 2x Storm Shield, 1x Power Fist

This is a modified wolfwing list. The HQs all go with T-Wolves. The IPs go with the biker squads. Now every squad scouts and has hit and run. Scouts ... that means you have two turns to stop those bikes and wolves - after that pray. The IPs can detach when needed (so can the HQs) but are really there to tank wounds and discourage an assault. White Scar lists had CMs for assault but thunderwolves  can provide a fast, well-priced, hard-hitting assault unit in armies tthat are substantially better and they add a needed element to bike armies.

Nothing is safe from this list other than FMCs and Flyers. Despite this the guy won - so depending on your meta and the format and missions the list can compete pretty well. Daemon flying circus is not as common now so its real nemesis is Nid lists with three to five flyrants. But it excels early grabbing lots of maelstorm points and usually first blood.  

I personally do not know a unit that can stand up to six T-Wolves joined by Khan and a CM. Math hammer it out yourself but that unit is very tough indeed and nine models scouting forward take a lot of heat off the bikes which can be devastating with those IPs (which put out 5 Str 10 attacks alone). Just to note those T-Wolves put out 28 strength 5 rending attacks on the charge or when being charged and 5 strength 10 Power Fist swings (in 7ed no tests for counter charge either so both the T-Wolves and IPs get it). Then add in Khan and the CM attacks ... this unit will destroy a backfield deployment zone.

Now playing this list you need to deploy properly and be very aware of target priority. IYou have to be prepared to sacrifice units and screen efficiently with a bike/wolf list. I see too often people picking up a white scars list and just running head long into the opponents guns. I'm not advocating a defensive stance with the list, lol. I am just saying you need to know how to screen and advance to protect your deathstar.

Now a quick note on melee. The whole "melee is dead" thing is obsolete. The Harlequin codex, the Blood Angel codex, the Ork codex and the Dark Eldar codex need melee and the threat of melee to accomplish most of their mission goals. Wolfstar exemplifies this. Bikes need melee back up. Now wave serpent makes it difficult getting to top tables without spamming certain units but the meta is going to flip on its head once the Harlkies start winning and if we see more lists like wolfstar and aggressive DE lists using grots and courts, etc.

Thank you for reminding me about smash. For some reason that mechanic sometimes slips my mind.

So I've been asked about Harlequins. Would I use them? I gave this some thought and came up with a list that I would play for giggles. Without further ado:  

Sneaky D's Eldaquin List: 1850

Eldar CAD:

Illic Nightspear
Autarch  Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Mantle of the Laughing God
10 Pathfinders
10 Pathfinders
5 Pathfinders
Crimson Hunter Exarch
6 Swooping Hawks, Exarch, Sunrifle
WraithKnight
Aegis Defense Line, Quad Autocannons

Heroes Path Formation:

Death Jester
Shadowseer, Mask of Secrets  
Solitaire

Yep. I am pulling out all the deployment shenanigans here. So however your opponent chooses to deploy you can answer him. You need just be careful not to concede First Blood. What does not have the ability to infiltrate or DS. What does not have shrouded/stealth? This list would be a blast to play and could really be frustrating to defend against. Of course it only has a few very durable models but hey ... harlies and eldar.

The list has a number of little tricks. If you are facing a non-fearless stubborn army ... uh oh. i rather like every little nuance .... mask of secrets on infiltrating shadowseer. D eath jester's blow-me-away gun. Solitaire's blitz attack (ten attacks!). Hawks swooping in and out. Important to note when infiltrate occurs too - after your opponent deploys ... after objectives are placed.

Drop the swooping hawks, aegis and 5 pathfinders and you have a 1500 list. You can also if you like divide those pathfinders up into smaller squads but I like the extra bodies per squad if infiltrating.

Enjoy.

*cat approved*

egorey wrote:

So I've been asked about Harlequins. Would I use them? I gave this some thought and came up with a list that I would play for giggles. Without further ado:  

Sneaky D's Eldaquin List: 1850

Eldar CAD:

Illic Nightspear
Autarch  Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Mantle of the Laughing God
10 Pathfinders
10 Pathfinders
5 Pathfinders
Crimson Hunter Exarch
6 Swooping Hawks, Exarch, Sunrifle
WraithKnight
Aegis Defense Line, Quad Autocannons

Heroes Path Formation:

Death Jester
Shadowseer
Solitaire

Yep. I am pulling out all the deployment shenanigans here. So however your opponent chooses to deploy you can answer him. You need just be careful not to concede First Blood. What does not have the ability to infiltrate or DS. What does not have shrouded/stealth? This list would be a blast to play and could really be frustrating to defend against. Of course it only has a few very durable models but hey ... harlies and eldar.

Drop the swooping hawks, aegis and 5 pathfinders and you have a 1500 list. You can also if you like divide those pathfinders up into smaller squads but I like the extra bodies per squad if infiltrating.

Enjoy.

hm.  So the little units lure someone into the open and perhaps then they are swallowed up by a solitaire or cut down by Hawks.  The Hawks can actually man the gun and then head up to the sky if their service is not needed onluy top return and plague you.  Wraithknight can man it or deep strike in.  I forget if they deep strike. Deep Striking WraithKnights would be fun.  hehehe.

Here is the thing. You can skip over to the tactics thread and read everything there. You can buy yourself an army, study the codex and then read every available article on the units in the codex. You can look at all the batreps that use your codex and see how others have played through a game. But the bottom line is nothing can replace experience. So you can look at a list and surmise how you would play it. You can run it through your head. And then you get the army on the table and voila - it does not quite pan out the way you envisioned.

So Unorthodoxy sent me a Tau army. I have played against Tau but never with Tau. I thought  - so what. I'm an experienced player - how hard will it be? Well my record is 1-2 so far. I found myself forgetting all the rules - nove charging, Aun'Va's once a game go to ground, using my markerlights correctly, deploying correctly. You see J and I worked out a system for the list to bait the opponent. What happens when they do not take the bait? What happens when they are in your deployment zone turn two?

So I need experience with the army. The fellows that win major tournaments test and play a lot. They devote a lot of time to the hobby. I can tell you how a list should play on the table top. I can describe tactics I would try and use. But without proper preparation, tweaking and testing I'm bound to fail on my first outing unless I'm really lucky or my opponents are not top notch. Because experienced opponents playing a list they understand inside and out will take advantage of you EVERY time.

There is NO substitute for experience and there are no short cuts to winning in 40k. You can bring any OP list you want to the table top but if you lack experience playing it you set yourself up to fail. So you have to pay the price and gain the experience and not simply say - this army list is no good. This codex sucks. Now having played for quite a number of years i feel I have a head start on any new codex or list I pick up but I still tend to make mistakes with new armies.

When I field an army I'm very familiar with I can insert new units, take chances, recognize opportunities. Deploy poorly against me and I'll see it. Place objectives poorly and I'll recognize it. I don't play nearly as much these days as I used to. I've cut down to two armies pretty much so when I play, I do so with confidence. I have not played De/Eldar for awhile. I am focusing on learning Tau and 30k for now.

So why am I bringing this up? Well. I can construct mighty paper lists. I can show you lists I've faced that have caused me problems. I can describe units and deathstars I've faced that i found strong on the table top. But I cannot say that any of this will benefit you because until you face it a few times or field it a few times it is near impossible to really get a handle on it.

So people will tell you what counters this and what nerfs that. They will proclaim that this unit is great and that unit is worthless. I say go out play those units and see for yourself. See what works for you. Don't field a list you saw someone win with from an internet site. Build your own lists and test them out guys. Test them a lot before deciding what is good or bad. Don't play something once and give up on it. Play a unit a few times before deciding. Hone your skills and knowledge.

Never and I mean NEVER pay attention to someone telling you that this codex or this list is not for beginners. Any list is for beginners. You will learn as you play the list. Stick with it and improve.